Alabama outlaws abortion

[Swarm]

Not many in here are accepting of @Dave89 for his different opinion or the people of Alabama...

Let's have a civil debate.

I feel like the debate is actually quite civil. That might of course be the case because most people share a similar opinion here but I don't think anyone has attacked any poster in this thread personally. Sure there was some colorful language towards the drafters of the bill and some mockery of the US in general but I wouldn't necessarily consider that part of a "debate".

I think people have also been quite civil with @Dave89 which is of course also down to him not getting overly frustrated with the barrage of people not sharing his opinion. I think where you make a serious mistake is in your comparison of the people here mostly not accepting Dave89's and the legislators of Alabama's opinion and them not accepting people who believe they should be able to choose whether they want to get an abortion or not. The things are absolutely not comparable because nobody in this forum has started to draft a bill prohibiting any of these people to express that opinion or to have it in the first place. Sure I will fight him for it because in my opinion he is wrong. I don't understand it but I will not hate him for having that opinion. What I will hate him for is forcing his views of the world on others. And that is precisely what this whole discussion is centered around. So please don't argue the "they won't accept me for wanting to limit their personal liberties" case.

 

[Dave89]

I'm being civil because I understand that in the extreme cases (which make bad laws, remember) the emotions will be high. I'm just on the different side of an incredibly complex and difficult decision. I understand the arguments of the pro choice movement, and I realise it's a shitty trade off where competing rights are set against each other. I won't speak glibly about the experience of rape victims.

Although a poster on page 1 essentially called me a rapist, or at the very least a rape apologist, and made accusations about how I treat the females in my life. I didn't engage, just reported it. It's still there today and the moderators have done nothing about it. The same mods who are active on this thread arguing against me. So maybe they don't really care about civil debate on here after all. At least not towards those they disagree with.

 

[Dave89]

The support is having the legal right to have an abortion, plain & simple.

Where a woman cannot afford a child, has sleepless nights over how she'll feed the child, and all we say as a society is "you can have an abortion, plain and simple", it is disgusting as a society to pat ourselves on the back and pretend we gave her any sort of choice. There is no choice there.

I understand the complexities where rape is involved, but where any woman feels that an abortion is her only option financially, we have failed her.

 

[africanspur]

Not many in here are accepting of @Dave89 for his different opinion or the people of Alabama...

I think people aren't as accepting of other opinions when it affects others and how they lead their lives.

Dave89 is very welcome and free to to force a ban on abortion on his wife (herself if they are a woman) and any daughters they may have.

Pro choice isn't about forcing people to have an abortion or pushing them to do it. It's simple to provide the option if needed.

That isn't the same the other way round.

 

[Dave89]

I think people aren't as accepting of other opinions when it affects others and how they lead their lives.

Dave89 is very welcome and free to to force a ban on abortion on his wife (herself if they are a woman) and any daughters they may have.

Pro choice isn't about forcing people to have an abortion or pushing them to do it. It's simple to provide the option if needed.

That isn't the same the other way round.

And as @calodo2003 perfectly demonstrated upthread, it's about trying to justify not giving women any other support. Abortions are all they need, plain and simple, right?

Rape crisis centres are closing in the UK. Some victims wait 14 months for counselling. But they've access to an abortion so the rest of that is excused. Supporting women indeed.

 

[africanspur]

And as @calodo2003 perfectly demonstrated upthread, it's about trying to justify not giving women any other support. Abortions are all they need, plain and simple, right?

Rape crisis centres are closing in the UK. Some victims wait 14 months for counselling. But they've access to an abortion so the rest of that is excused. Supporting women indeed.

Hmm no, that isn't what it's about. Pro choice does not by definition mean that no support is subsequently provided and I'm sure you know that it's nonsense to suggest that.

It's a societal failure, firstly that they aren't given support during the abortion and secondly that so many families are struggling full stop.

A lack of support for women who've had abortions is no more a position of pro choice as a lack of support for unwanted babies and their mothers is a fundamental position of pro life.

 

[Ainu]

And as @calodo2003 perfectly demonstrated upthread, it's about trying to justify not giving women any other support. Abortions are all they need, plain and simple, right?

Rape crisis centres are closing in the UK. Some victims wait 14 months for counselling. But they've access to an abortion so the rest of that is excused. Supporting women indeed.

You're not seriously reducing the pro-choice movement to this, are you?

 

[Dave89]

You're not seriously reducing the pro-choice movement to this, are you?

They weren't my words.

 

[Ainu]

They weren't my words.

What? Whose words were they then?

 

[Synco]

I think people aren't as accepting of other opinions when it affects others and how they lead their lives.

Dave89 is very welcome and free to to force a ban on abortion on his wife (herself if they are a woman) and any daughters they may have.

Pro choice isn't about forcing people to have an abortion or pushing them to do it. It's simple to provide the option if needed.

That isn't the same the other way round.

That's other people too. Family pressure is very much part of the problem.

 

[Dave89]

What? Whose words were they then?

I've literally quoted the post on this page. If you're not going to engage in good faith I'm done with you

 

[Swarm]

I'm being civil because I understand that in the extreme cases (which make bad laws, remember) the emotions will be high. I'm just on the different side of an incredibly complex and difficult decision. I understand the arguments of the pro choice movement, and I realise it's a shitty trade off where competing rights are set against each other. I won't speak glibly about the experience of rape victims.

Although a poster on page 1 essentially called me a rapist, or at the very least a rape apologist, and made accusations about how I treat the females in my life. I didn't engage, just reported it. It's still there today and the moderators have done nothing about it. The same mods who are active on this thread arguing against me. So maybe they don't really care about civil debate on here after all. At least not towards those they disagree with.

I quickly reviewed the initial responses to your first comments in this thread. Telling you to "feck off" is indeed not exactly what I would call dialogue about a complex subject and I assume you were alluding to the comment by @2ndTouch which was indeed a bit on the strange side. I am not sure I follow your interpretation of him calling you a rapist but it was definitely on the less helpful part of the spectrum. You do have to concede though that your first comment was a bit snarky as well. I think after you showed you were willing to discuss your view in a bit more detail people did argue with you if of course quite aggressively at times.

One problem I am seeing with your remarks is that you keep pointing to other ways women should be aided and that it isn't happening sufficiently. I don't think you will find a lot of people here that won't agree with you. Of course a lot more focus should be put on the vulnerable, the poor, the sick and the victims of whatever kind of violence. I still don't think that prohibiting abortions helps that case. And I also don't think that all the money, medical care and counseling in the world would offset some of the damages of birthing an unwanted child may bring to the mother, the child and their social network. So I would ask you to not use these strawman arguments because you are pointing at something that is not initially part of the issue.

They weren't my words.

Yeah, they were the words of someone arguing here. I do not share his opinion. Another problem with a multilateral discussion, a lot of different views and opinions. Please try to not use one persons argument against someone else that might not be of the same opinion or even worse, an entire group of people.

 

[Ainu]

I've literally quoted the post on this page. If you're not going to engage in good faith I'm done with you

I missed the link to what you were saying in that last post to the quoted post above, my bad. I had looked on the last page and saw some different posts by that user. Regardless, I don't think that's fair. The poster you quoted is his own person and not indicative of what the rest of the pro-choice movement might feel about the issue. You're making a massive logical leap here based on a single post by a single person, as if people in the pro-choice movement aren't hugely in favour of us as a society improving and doing more for women in these situations. Everyone (or at least most, I hope and assume) wants to see abortion as a last resort, not an easy solution.

 

[Dave89]

I missed the link to what you were saying in that last post to the quoted post above, my bad. I had looked on the last page and saw some different posts by that user. Regardless, I don't think that's fair. The poster you quoted is his own person and not indicative of what the rest of the pro-choice movement might feel about the issue. You're making a massive logical leap here based on a single post by a single person, as if people in the pro-choice movement aren't hugely in favour of us as a society improving and doing more for women in these situations. Everyone (or at least most, I hope and assume) wants to see abortion as a last resort, not an easy solution.

We close rape crisis centres, cut funding to domestic violence charities, demonise single mothers, attack the low income benefits claimants, cut free school meals, cap child benefit, run a toothless child support system, offer pathetically little help with childcare, but we also offer women abortion, so we're clearly a progressive society about empowering women, right? Kudos to the poster I quoted for being brave enough to be honest about why he supports abortions.

 

[Ainu]

We close rape crisis centres, cut funding to domestic violence charities, demonise single mothers, attack the low income benefits claimants, cut free school meals, cap child benefit, run a toothless child support system, offer pathetically little help with childcare, but we also offer women abortion, so we're clearly a progressive society about empowering women, right? Kudos to the poster I quoted for being brave enough to be honest about why he supports abortions.

What's that supposed to mean? Are you implying I'm being dishonest in my post? I don't know what you got from my post but I was clearly saying we're not doing well and need to improve.

 

[carvajal]

This case makes me doubt, it is a dilemma.
On the one hand as @arnie_ni said ... if you defend life you should always defend it.
It would justify the elimination of life because there will be scars in the life of that family. Create requirements for life, such as ensuring a certain quality of life for the born (which was discussed these days in the thread of abortion) but on the other hand,
What would I do in the situation that someone rapes my 11-year-old daughter?

 

[Dave89]

What's that supposed to mean? Are you implying I'm being dishonest in my post? I don't know what you got from my post but I was clearly saying we're not doing well and need to improve.

What it means is the sum of what I posted shows British society's collective attitude. I believe you think differently. But reality reflects the majority.

 

[Swarm]

We close rape crisis centres, cut funding to domestic violence charities, demonise single mothers, attack the low income benefits claimants, cut free school meals, cap child benefit, run a toothless child support system, offer pathetically little help with childcare, but we also offer women abortion, so we're clearly a progressive society about empowering women, right? Kudos to the poster I quoted for being brave enough to be honest about why he supports abortions.

What are you talking about? The person you just cited literally said they are opposed to what you are listing. Nobody is claiming the UK or in my case Germany is the perfect "progressive society about empowering women". At least I personally am glad that at least the abortion part is less awfully regulated than it is currently in quite a number of US states. Which does by no means mean I am happy about the way the laws are in Germany (not really up to speed on UK legislation). That social politics has not had priority over economic and anti-migration topics is a huge issue that is facing most of the western world these days and I am severely upset about that. Not to speak about environmental and climate issues.

So again, stop mixing these things up, they are related but a system being crap at one point doesn't mean it has to be at a different one.

 

[Swarm]

What it means is the sum of what I posted shows British society's collective attitude. I believe you think differently. But reality reflects the majority.

You are confusing society and politics. I am pretty sure if people could just decide how the world they are living in behaves it would look a lot different. It just turns out none of the institutions you listed will turn a solid profit. That is what it comes down to. People are stupid and don't really make the connection that them not wanting to earn less money means people who might need that money or services that money could pay for will lead to the status you are describing.

I will say this very clearly: the way you are not only discrediting pro-choice arguments but an entire society by generalizing everything is just entirely counterproductive to any kind of argument. That is like me saying a lot of abuse has happened at the hands of members of the christian church and that means the majority does not want to investigate that properly, therefore all church goers are to blame.

 

[Dave89]

You are confusing society and politics. I am pretty sure if people could just decide how the world they are living in behaves it would look a lot different. It just turns out none of the institutions you listed will turn a solid profit. That is what it comes down to. People are stupid and don't really make the connection that them not wanting to earn less money means people who might need that money or services that money could pay for will lead to the status you are describing.

I will say this very clearly: the way you are not only discrediting pro-choice arguments but an entire society by generalizing everything is just entirely counterproductive to any kind of argument. That is like me saying a lot of abuse has happened at the hands of members of the christian church and that means the majority does not want to investigate that properly, therefore all church goers are to blame.

Sounds like the majority of every thread on Catholicism this place has ever had.

 

[Swarm]

Sounds like the majority of every thread on Catholicism this place has ever had.

And do you feel that is a fair statement? Again, you are holding someone elses words against me and that is starting to get really frustrating.

 

[Ainu]

What it means is the sum of what I posted shows British society's collective attitude. I believe you think differently. But reality reflects the majority.

I believe a whole lot of people think differently and want this to change. And I certainly believe that a lot of people who are pro-choice are not behind the things you listed.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We close rape crisis centres, cut funding to domestic violence charities, demonise single mothers, attack the low income benefits claimants, cut free school meals, cap child benefit, run a toothless child support system, offer pathetically little help with childcare, but we also offer women abortion, so we're clearly a progressive society about empowering women, right? Kudos to the poster I quoted for being brave enough to be honest about why he supports abortions.

But surely you can see that actively denying women abortions in the face of all those issues above just makes it worse?

 

[harms]

My wife has looked me in the eye and told me that she could never abort. I didn't play 21 scenarios with her, but she stressed the "never". Before giving birth to our children, she also made me swear to prioritise them if a decision had to be made any point. Thankfully it never came to that.

It’s great that you agree on the matter. But can you imagine if your wife looked you in the eyes and said that she didn’t want the baby and you’d say that, well, she doesn’t have a say in that matter?

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

What good are social support gonna do to a teenage girl who got knocked up, although through consensual sex, entirely accidentally? So even though she’s in no way mentally or physically prepared to go through the ordeals of carrying, giving birth and rearing a child, she must do it because the state can provide care, effectively consign her future to one she does not want?

It’s an asinine view. If you are indeed pro life, how about caring about the actual lives of the women these laws affect, instead of potential foetuses who by all means and purposes are not recognised person/member of the human tribe until delivery? Animals in the wild have more freedom than these actual human beings are afforded, they can actually abort pregnancies if that affects their survival.

 

[Wibble]

I think people aren't as accepting of other opinions when it affects others and how they lead their lives.

Dave89 is very welcome and free to to force a ban on abortion on his wife (herself if they are a woman) and any daughters they may have.

Pro choice isn't about forcing people to have an abortion or pushing them to do it. It's simple to provide the option if needed.

That isn't the same the other way round.

He really isn't as they have their own ability and legal right to choose.

 

[Wibble]

My wife has looked me in the eye and told me that she could never abort. I didn't play 21 scenarios with her, but she stressed the "never". Before giving birth to our children, she also made me swear to prioritise them if a decision had to be made any point. Thankfully it never came to that.

So that gives you the right to dictate what other think and do?

 

[Wibble]

Hence why every modern country has an abortion cut off before rationality and self consciousness develops.

About 2 years before.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

I'm being civil because I understand that in the extreme cases (which make bad laws, remember) the emotions will be high. I'm just on the different side of an incredibly complex and difficult decision. I understand the arguments of the pro choice movement, and I realise it's a shitty trade off where competing rights are set against each other. I won't speak glibly about the experience of rape victims.

Although a poster on page 1 essentially called me a rapist, or at the very least a rape apologist, and made accusations about how I treat the females in my life. I didn't engage, just reported it. It's still there today and the moderators have done nothing about it. The same mods who are active on this thread arguing against me. So maybe they don't really care about civil debate on here after all. At least not towards those they disagree with.

Mate, I admire your courage getting involved in such discussions here. I have tried a few times and it's a very very tough exercise to stay calm in the midst of attacks coming from almost everyone and some people trying to wind you up. Take it or leave it, this is LibCafe

 

[Massive Spanner]

Mate, I admire your courage getting involved in such discussions here. I have tried a few times and it's a very very tough exercise to stay calm in the midst of attacks coming from almost everyone and some people trying to wind you up. Take it or leave it, this is LibCafe

When the only places left in the world banning abortion are the least developed nations, and now Alabama, it's hard to really argue being pro-life anymore, quite frankly. We had a referendum here in Ireland last year and most of the pro-life brigade came across about as rational as flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

When the only places left in the world banning abortion are the least developed nations, and now Alabama, it's hard to really argue being pro-life anymore, quite frankly. We had a referendum here in Ireland last year and most of the pro-life brigade came across about as rational as flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers.

Well, I think the abortion debate isn't about to be settled anytime soon. There will always be strong and deeply held views on both extremes, and also many shades of grey in-between, like this thread and the Abortion thread have shown.

 

[Carolina Red]

There will always be strong and deeply held views on both extremes, and also many shades of grey in-between

What exactly do you consider to be the extreme opposite of “no pregnancy should be aborted”?

 

[Rado_N]

So that gives you the right to dictate what other think and do?

I like the arguement of "my wife and sister are anti-abortion" as if that justifies removing the choice from every other woman.

 

[Adisa]

Another thing is Trump would have replaced RBG by the time Roe V Wade gets to the SCOTUS.

 

[Ainu]

I like the arguement of "my wife and sister are anti-abortion" as if that justifies removing the choice from every other woman.

To be fair to him, he only said something about them because another poster asked "what if your sister etc". I don't think he used it as an argument, he was asked a question and answered.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Well, I think the abortion debate isn't about to be settled anytime soon. There will always be strong and deeply held views on both extremes, and also many shades of grey in-between, like this thread and the Abortion thread have shown.

Yes, but, you could say that about almost anything. Flat-Earther's are strong about their views, Anti-Vaxxer's are strong about their views, Climate Change deniers are strong about their views. I've lived my whole life in a country that outlawed abortion and seen the suffering it's caused women here, and in some cases, outright death. Thankfully we voted to introduce abortion by an absolute landslide last year. Anyone who is still pro-life in this day and age is as much a danger to society as any of those listed above, in my eyes.

 

[Wibble]

I like the arguement of "my wife and sister are anti-abortion" as if that justifies removing the choice from every other woman.

Yes. Interesting "logic".

 

[Fanatic 00237]

What exactly do you consider to be the extreme opposite of “no pregnancy should be aborted”?

This:

Unborn fetus isn’t a child. Imagine letting WOMEN decide something for themselves.

If abortion is murder, then masturbation is genocide. Menstrual periods must he murder too.

I purposely didn't tag the poster because I don't want to start a discussion.

 

[Dave89]

To be fair to him, he only said something about them because another poster asked "what if your sister etc". I don't think he used it as an argument, he was asked a question and answered.

Thank you. Is that not a fair point @Rado_N? @Wibble?

 

[Carolina Red]

This:

I purposely didn't tag the poster because I don't want to start a discussion.

That’s the opposite of “no pregnancy should he aborted” to you?