Been waiting for it
All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - Skizzo/Pat vs Gio/Theon
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@VivaJanuzaj nice post. I think it runs similar to what pat and I have been trying to get across.
Setting up like we have it forced the strong midfield to pull apart, or run the risk of getting the flanks badly exposed. Once that space starts opening up, we have a ruthless combination of attacking players against a defence not quite up to the task.
Then again, some might say I'm biased
Setting up like we have it forced the strong midfield to pull apart, or run the risk of getting the flanks badly exposed. Once that space starts opening up, we have a ruthless combination of attacking players against a defence not quite up to the task.
Then again, some might say I'm biased
I was as well, I read the start of that post and assumed it was about that until he mentioned a header.
I'm still finding it mind-boggling that you could put that together, what was everyone else playing at?@VivaJanuzaj nice post. I think it runs similar to what pat and I have been trying to get across.
Setting up like we have it forced the strong midfield to pull apart, or run the risk of getting the flanks badly exposed. Once that space starts opening up, we have a ruthless combination of attacking players against a defence not quite up to the task.
Then again, some might say I'm biased
It all started with the manager having the first pick picking Shearer over Ronaldo... who does that!I'm still finding it mind-boggling that you could put that together, what was everyone else playing at?
That probably would have had a few knock on effects as far as tactics, picks and reinforcementsIt all started with the manager having the first pick picking Shearer over Ronaldo... who does that!
We've come so far from our first match with Ronaldo on the left, Kewell on the right and saha through the MiddleI'm still finding it mind-boggling that you could put that together, what was everyone else playing at?
We were fortunate that Marty passed over Ronaldo/Henry for Shearer in the first round, and again when Henry became available when we were at the top of the drafting order in the last reinforcement round. Embracing our inner muppets and choosing attackers for all of our first 3 reinforcement picks helped too
I knew around your third pick that you would be able to go far unless something insane happens like a bad draw. Getting a top attacking player first up and then two defenders who you can take till the final after that is one of my favourite top-order draft strategies. Works like a charm.
That strategy is definitely a keeper. I think we did quite well initially to keep some of our Utd/Arsenal/Liverpool spots free or easily up-gradable too. Maybe too well in fact as we could still start another Utd player which is a strange situation at this stage in a PL draft!
I knew around your third pick that you would be able to go far unless something insane happens like a bad draw. Getting a top attacking player first up and then two defenders who you can take till the final after that is one of my favourite top-order draft strategies. Works like a charm.
That was a bad setup, and I told you so at the time, but once you tweaked it to Kewell-Juninho-Ronaldo with Saha up top I loved it and would have expected you to focus your attention elsewhere. Simply put, I reckon you have two guys on the bench who were better PL players than Robben, who is actually on the pitch. It's a completely mental embarrassment of riches.We've come so far from our first match with Ronaldo on the left, Kewell on the right and saha through the Middle
Yeah I think we over thought that one a bit, but fortunately it was an easy enough fix. Since then we've had good fortune with the players available in reinforcements, odd reinforcement choices elsewhere, and a splash of good fortune. Hell, we didn't get Alonso until our 4th reinforcement pick.
Saha just wasn't rated at all though which surprised me. We started him over the far more prolific Ian Wright as we felt he was the better fit in terms of bringing our wingers into the game with his selfless approach play (much like Benzema and Ronaldo at Madrid now), but he got a shite reception outside of Aldo and yourself, so he had to be replaced really. Kewell was tough to drop as I was practically foaming at the mouth at the prospect of getting him initially, and he got a good reception when we moved him back to the left wing, but we just couldn't pass up on Henry.
That and people inexplicably passing on henry etc in the next reinforcement round.It all started with the manager having the first pick picking Shearer over Ronaldo... who does that!
Shearer v Desailly
We caught up with Desailly pitch-side:
Who is the toughest opponent you’ve ever faced?
Alan Shearer has to be up there. Because you knew before the kick-off you were going to take some knocks and that however you replied, be it with violence, malice or brute force, he didn’t care. He’d get on with his job. But he’d make you pay for it. He’d catch up with you!
That's nice of you Marcel, especially since he's just rattled one past you from 30 yards. What do you make of Steven Gerrard who is currently bossing midfield?
A wonderful player. I can hardly think of another player who can deliver a shot with such perfection and beauty. Such a versatile performer: good at winning the ball from opponents, always trying to create something for team-mates, and lethal when he shoots on goal. Also, like Terry, he is a leader.
Sweet. And his midfield partner here Patrick Vieira?
Two players in one. He has tremendous physique, but also sophisticated technique. And, what is very important for a modern midfielder, he has the goleador [‘goalscorer’] instinct. I think is still the best player in his position, although he has problems with his muscles.
We caught up with Desailly pitch-side:
Who is the toughest opponent you’ve ever faced?
Alan Shearer has to be up there. Because you knew before the kick-off you were going to take some knocks and that however you replied, be it with violence, malice or brute force, he didn’t care. He’d get on with his job. But he’d make you pay for it. He’d catch up with you!
That's nice of you Marcel, especially since he's just rattled one past you from 30 yards. What do you make of Steven Gerrard who is currently bossing midfield?
A wonderful player. I can hardly think of another player who can deliver a shot with such perfection and beauty. Such a versatile performer: good at winning the ball from opponents, always trying to create something for team-mates, and lethal when he shoots on goal. Also, like Terry, he is a leader.
Sweet. And his midfield partner here Patrick Vieira?
Two players in one. He has tremendous physique, but also sophisticated technique. And, what is very important for a modern midfielder, he has the goleador [‘goalscorer’] instinct. I think is still the best player in his position, although he has problems with his muscles.
i don't rate both teams' defensive units, especially Skizzo's. I am surprised at the gap, must be smaller. but at the same time the attacks are quite good.
- Basic principle is that a defensive full-back-cum-centre-half will do a better defensive job but offer less going forward than a converted-winger-masquerading-as-a-full-back. It's pretty clear which categories Vertonghen and Bridge fall into. Bridge used to be a winger and fell back to full-back. It obviously took him a few seasons to learn the ropes at the back as the evidence I earlier presented shows. Neither look great here, but the fact we've got an actual real defender who was excellent in 2012/13 (even winning a Premier League Player of the Month award, as well as the Premier League Team of the Year spot) with 70 caps for his country, will help when analysing their defensive contributions.
- Our midfield will dominate the game. Therefore Robben will have more chances to run at Bridge. In contrast, Ronaldo even with his superior indvidiual credentials will be starved of those chances. It's a simple and incontestable premise that sets out why Bridge will be more exposed - even though Ronaldo is the better player/goalscorer.
- We have a genuine overlapping wing-back threat in Dan Petrescu. That's exacerbated by choosing a left midfielder massively ill-suited to the off-the-ball job of having to chase him up and down the flank. Your talk of cost/benefit is not how 99% of elite teams play these days. Everyone gets their full-backs forward when in control of possession. Hell even Ferguson was sending Gary Neville upfield against Milan and leaving no less than Ronaldinho behind. And it worked as United scored from a Neville cross. It happens all the time with all teams and it should be concerning for the voters that you're flying in the face of the current wisdom.
Sorry, I lost you at this point. The edge in midfield?
- That's two against three in the middle?
- That's Gilberto and Xabi against Patrick Vieira and Steven Gerrard - who have 14 PL Team of the Year Awards between them (versus a fat 0 for their two opponents)
- Alonso in a midfield two? Yes that'll help his lack of mobility, never mind the unsettling fact he's up against two athletes who will trample all over him.
Well under your alternative interpretation, Kevin Phillips would be the best goalscorer on the park. But neverthless let's indulge this and be a little less selective about those statistics then:
- Top goalscorer in Premier League history: 260 goals
- Most Premier League goals in a 42-game season: 34
- Most Premier League goals in a 38-game season: 31
- Most Premier League hat-tricks: 11
- Top goalscorer in Newcastle United history: 206
- Most European goals scored for Newcastle United: 30
Refreshing to hear some more balanced comments. I think we can turn some of those around:
- Who is helping Gallas cope with Giggs in full flight?
- Who is helping Bridge deal with Robben?
- Who is helping Alonso deal with Vieira?
- Who is helping Gilberto deal with Gerrard?
That basic principle ignores Vertonghen's actual qualities as a footballer. He's skilled on the ball and a rash, error-prone defender with fairly average pace. Converted centre-back or not, he's still not much of a defender, and the fact remains he's up against Ronaldo while Bridge faces Robben.
Again, 'dominating the midfield' is quite a nebulous term. We have no problem acknowledging that you've got the stronger midfield, but are you claiming that a front six of Makelele/Vieira/Gerrard/Giggs/Shearer/Robben are going to be racking up huge possession stats? Or that Gilberto/Alonso/David Silva are incapable of maintaining possession when we do get the ball? There'll be frequent turnovers in possession here and that plays right into our hands.
An edge in that specific aspect of midfield play. Alonso and David Silva have fitted comfortably into Spain's tiki taka style of play - its hardly outrageous to suggest that they're more suited to changing the tempo of our play and playing possession football at times than Gerrard and Vieira. I haven't said once that they're better midfielders generally.
Top goalscorer in Newcastle United history? Most European goals scored for Newcastle? Utterly irrelevant as none of our forwards actually played for Newcastle. Most Premier League goals in a 42 game season is again largely irrelevant as a basis for comparison as none of our forwards played in a 42 game PL campaign. Suarez and Ronaldo have both equalled Shearer's tally in a 38 game season having played less games.
If Theon had said 'Top Goalscorer in Premier League history' instead of 'best goalscorer on the pitch' then this would have been a non-argument. Instead its opinion masquerading as fact, which I described as highly debatable, well, because it is highly debatable. Shearer played 441 PL games compared to 550 for Ronaldo, Suarez and Henry combined. Gives him a slight advantage in the total goals scored, no? Goals per game is hardly an irrelevant statistic no mater how much you'd like to ignore it. And every one of Suarez, Ronaldo and Henry had a better goals per game ratio in their peak season than Kevin Phillips, so that cheap shot doesn't stand up to scrutiny very well
.The fundamental issue I have is the way that SkizzoPat's centre midfield has effectively been abandoned. I can understand the premise - we're going to lose in there quality-wise, so let's forget about it and compensate elsewhere on the park. But in the modern game it just doesn't work like that. Lose the midfield and 9/10 you lose the game. If you lose control of the midfield, but still hold a strong defensive shape, where the core is protected, then you can occasionally get away with it. But again that's not the case here. I cannot think of a team that has played with such a set-up and been successful at the top level since perhaps Brazil 1994. And they had two of the greatest defensive midfielders in history holding the 4-4-2 fort. United's 4-4-2 relied heavily on the absolute quality of the midfield two and the sheer graft of the wide pair. Neither of those critical elements to success are present here. And frankly it wasn't long before United's 4-4-2 became old hat and overtaken by 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. Atletico are a more recent example of a successful 4-4-2, but in truth that's a narrow 4-2-2-2 where it's effectively four central midfielders, again, attempting to get a stranglehold of the centre of the park. A huge reason behind Chelsea's unprecedented points total of 95 in 2004/05 was how they played this 4-3-3 model and many of the Premiership teams were still persevering with 4-4-2.
I would buy a 4-4-2 if it recognised why it can rarely compete in the modern game. You'd need both a pair of world-class players in the middle to exert a class advantage and box-to-box machines on the flanks who would need to play very tucked. Not one of those elements are present here. And even that model doesn't work as Ferguson realised in the early 2000s. The concept of three lines is as dead as a dodo. Most teams play with a minimum of four, usually five now.
Everything else is just fantasy.
I would buy a 4-4-2 if it recognised why it can rarely compete in the modern game. You'd need both a pair of world-class players in the middle to exert a class advantage and box-to-box machines on the flanks who would need to play very tucked. Not one of those elements are present here. And even that model doesn't work as Ferguson realised in the early 2000s. The concept of three lines is as dead as a dodo. Most teams play with a minimum of four, usually five now.
Everything else is just fantasy.
Its facile to try to present our formation as a flat 4-4-2. Suarez's starting position is the obvious giveaway. Defensively he's easily got the workrate and physicality to make a good stab at pressing Makelele and cutting off passing lanes, and in possession both of our strikers are more than capable of dropping off to probe for space between the lines.
A good excerpt on the role David Silva is playing for us:
http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...-football-manager-2014-tactic-passion4fm.html
And a famous example of the flexibility that's possible within a 4-4-2 variant:
Starting Lineup:
Van Der Sar
Brown
Ferdinand
Heinze
O' Shea
Ronaldo
Fletcher
Carrick
Giggs
Rooney
Smith
With Rooney frequently positioning himself on the left wing while Giggs cuts infield. Somewhat similar to the Henry/David Silva dynamic here really.
As for the relative Premiership credentials of both teams, here is the number of Premier League Team of the Year spots both teams have:
Gio/Theon attack: 14
Skizzo/Pat attack: 12
Gio/Theon midfield: 14
Skizzo/Pat midfield: 1
Gio/Theon defence: 8
Skizzo/Pat defence: 6
Gio/Theon keeper: 3
Skizzo/Pat keeper: 2
OVERALL
Gio/Theon XI: 39
Skizzo/Pat XI: 21
Gio/Theon attack: 14
Skizzo/Pat attack: 12
Gio/Theon midfield: 14
Skizzo/Pat midfield: 1
Gio/Theon defence: 8
Skizzo/Pat defence: 6
Gio/Theon keeper: 3
Skizzo/Pat keeper: 2
OVERALL
Gio/Theon XI: 39
Skizzo/Pat XI: 21
I'd imagine Gerrard, Shearer and Giggs have racked up about half of your team's appearances, and they've played vastly more PL seasons between them than the likes of Henry, Suarez and Ronaldo. Its not a particularly impressive stat from that perspective.
Glad you both liked it. It does seem a bit unfair that some voters keep their thinking process inside and just say where they vote and grab their side. These games have more balance and the thinking should be the same.@VivaJanuzaj nice post. I think it runs similar to what pat and I have been trying to get across.
Setting up like we have it forced the strong midfield to pull apart, or run the risk of getting the flanks badly exposed. Once that space starts opening up, we have a ruthless combination of attacking players against a defence not quite up to the task.
Then again, some might say I'm biased
@Gio, I want to answer your post as Skizzo didn't really ask me anything, and you did.
No one really to be honest, and I do see it getting ugly at times. But I just think his defense is better built to sit deep, squeeze tight and sulk the pressure. Campbell wasn't the type of defender to go out and try to get it early, Desailly maybe was but he was definitely smarter than Kompany in doing that. Gallas will have many encounters against Giggs, and because of that, I think Giggs will surely get number of crosses(or shots) in this game. Robben, doesn't require constant attention from another midfielder from the right at his Chelsea time imo. He was really really good, but not one who necessarily needs a double up against or it will be hell like Giggs. When Petrescu joins the attack Silva will be there to track and add the extra body, and Silva has wonderful work rate. That should do it for me, Robben cutting inside worst case scenario he still has Campbell there, and he's amazing left foot wasn't as amazing these days. Gilberto doesn't need help with Gerrard imo, you usually don't need 2vs1 in midfield battles, you almost never get them, it's more of a 2vs3 in Gerrard-Shearer against Gilberto-Cambell-Desailly. Same goes for Alonso and Viera, I don't think Alonso usually gets a partner to double up a midfielder in defence.
Will Shearer score here? I would definitely put my money on yes. Will he score more than once? Maybe.
The thing is, I can counter the exact the same questions to you're team.
- Who is helping Vertonghen with Ronaldo?
- Who is helping Vidic-Kompany with Henry-Suarez?
I mean your mismatches against Skizzo are loud and clear. imo Giggs to Shearer might be the easiest route to goal here, and the most likely to happen at least once. But, and that's a big but, Skizzo's attackers can potentially be a very cohesive unit and I can see it working very well. All three of Suarez-Ronaldo-Henry will thrive on the counter with each other, all three can lead it, all three can reach balls from defending Xabi or Silva and just run like hell with it. Against your men in defence it will simply work if you ask me. And that's the difference. You may have the better setup and the easier route to goal(I rate Giggs for his influence really highly), and Shearer will no doubt go on the scoreboard, but I reckon Skizzo will win most of the matches by outscoring you.
As a defender Desailly was arguably at his peak between 96-00 where he was in the team of the tournament as a centre back in three consecutive Euro/Worlds. Having joined Chelsea in 98 in the middle of his peak he was also selected in to the team of the decade as one of the two best centre backs the EPL saw between 92-93 until 01-02 which is remarkable for someone who had just played three seasons.
Desailly came 10th in the Ballon d'Or in 1998 and then 22nd(ahead of Roy Keane amongst others) in 2000. He was clearly a world class defender in the middle of his peak 30-32 and nothing short of it - even if he of course also faded away at Chelsea between 01-03 where he was way out of his depth.
Hate seeing great players being bashed in to obscurity and the games should be more about tactical ways to beat your opponent rather than "Your players are shit". That goes both ways, a lot of trash talking in this thread.
Even 97-98 Desailly played as a midfielder for Milan I believe.
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This is probably quite true. Some perhaps unwarranted slightly, but it often happens in drafts as it goes on. Both sides were probably guilty of it at times...but it opened up some other discussions without getting too petty about it.Hate seeing great players being bashed in to obscurity and the games should be more about tactical ways to beat your opponent rather than "Your players are shit". That goes both ways, a lot of trash talking in this thread.
Congratulations on the win and poor luck Gio/Theon. What a fantastic central midfield you brought together, perfect.
Indeed, I voted and stopped reading the thread the moment Desailly staarted being painted as some sort of liability. Some even suggested he needs upgradingHate seeing great players being bashed in to obscurity and the games should be more about tactical ways to beat your opponent rather than "Your players are shit". That goes both ways, a lot of trash talking in this thread.
Indeed, I voted and stopped reading the thread the moment Desailly staarted being painted as some sort of liability. Some even suggested he needs upgrading
Can you think of any full season where Desailly played as a centre back at Milan? Was trying to find one but I constantly just found him playing and listed as a midfielder.Great game and well done to both the sides. It was great to see Gio not get disheartened by the initial feedback much of which was in the favour of the opposition and fight till the end, while pulling numerous tricks out of the bag. Great spirit! And of course both Skizzo and Pat, commendable job from start to end and you look favourites for the final.
Anyway, I had refrained to post this during the game as I felt I had already had more of a say than I deserved to but remembering about Cristiano's time in the PL made me go back and watch a couple of great videos compiled by the user @IhabX7 in this thread 7 odd years back, which feature not only his goals but a lot of his all round attacking display specially some great moments from the 06-07 season. Him, Rooney, Park and Saha were a delight to watch together, some mesmerizing football on display. Makes me sad that it was all so long ago and also that Cristiano himself has turned into a complete machine and has lost a lot of that flair and skill, or rather he chooses to focus on his other strengths. Anyway I'll just drop the links if anyone wants to go on a nostalgic trip, we've come a long way from that era, hopefully once Van Gaal is done with his process we get to see something remotely similar to this. For a United fan, this is where it's at!
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v12530968cwhmjW7p?h1=Cristiano+Ronaldo+-+The+Proof+(Chapter+Two+-+Insane)
Anyway, I had refrained to post this during the game as I felt I had already had more of a say than I deserved to but remembering about Cristiano's time in the PL made me go back and watch a couple of great videos compiled by the user @IhabX7 in this thread 7 odd years back, which feature not only his goals but a lot of his all round attacking display specially some great moments from the 06-07 season. Him, Rooney, Park and Saha were a delight to watch together, some mesmerizing football on display. Makes me sad that it was all so long ago and also that Cristiano himself has turned into a complete machine and has lost a lot of that flair and skill, or rather he chooses to focus on his other strengths. Anyway I'll just drop the links if anyone wants to go on a nostalgic trip, we've come a long way from that era, hopefully once Van Gaal is done with his process we get to see something remotely similar to this. For a United fan, this is where it's at!
http://www.veoh.com/watch/v12530968cwhmjW7p?h1=Cristiano+Ronaldo+-+The+Proof+(Chapter+Two+-+Insane)
@Aldo great find. Glad you posted those. Was fantastic to watch him in full flight.
Shearer is the best goalscorer in the draft mate - it's really not debatable and only a complete moron would try to argue that Luis Suarez was a better Premier League goalscorer than Shearer.
He scored 69 goals in 110 games - Shearer almost hit that in two seasons.
I get that you wanted to win but it's not even close - Suarez has had one good season of top Premier League goalscoring, whereas Shearer at his peak had five or six.
Good game @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard. I knew the voters would look at Ronaldo/Vertonghen and it would be game over. But 90% of the fun is in the discussion rather than the voting per se so we wanted to thrash it out nevertheless. On the whole I don't feel we could have drafted or argued much better. At the start of the draft, looking ahead to your perfect Premier League XI, the front three will inevitably be Henry, Shearer and Ronaldo. Alongside that there is a pool of world-class central midfielders but a reduction in the same quality behind the striker (after Bergkamp really). Therefore it made sense to go 4-3-3, build it around those great CMs and hopefully get the right upgrades. The only exception would've been snapping up Henry when we had the chance, albeit it would've meant picking up a second-tier CM on the way back down, rather than end up with two final-ready players in Vieira and Vidic as we did. The order of the snake reinforcement almost had us shafted with the pre-semi-final picks, but thankfully 'MJJ/Crappy went for Bergkamp rather than Shearer (when Diarm was full of Arsenal and he didn't fit us).
I think that's fair. But it was the same with Kompany - he was clearly world class between 2010 and 2012, then dropped a level or two after that - so it was really about introducing some balance into the Kompany-bashing (and Bridge-bashing and Vertonghen-bashing). Funnily enough some of Desailly's issues at Chelsea were due to the lackadaisical Lebeouf while Kompany's were due to the lackadaisical Toure, so context is everything.
I believe that you are forgetting Cantona. In PL draft he is definitely up there with the best
In terms of Premier League performances, yes, that's fair.
Yup. Often becomes a spiral, when one player is bashed you bash theirs, then they bash yours and so on.
@Gio in terms of midfields, you couldn't have drafted a better one. Part of why our argument was to try and avoid it all together and focus elsewhere. After you highlighted Bridge, I knew we'd have to be on the offensive slightly more than usual
We didn't want to try and give the same usual one about Vidic and his struggle with Torres and the like, and fortunately there was enough on Kompany for us to highlight his struggles, even though he has been a top defender.
Really enjoyed the game though, even when we were up by a few I never felt comfortable knowing you'd have the arguments to back up your claims.
We didn't want to try and give the same usual one about Vidic and his struggle with Torres and the like, and fortunately there was enough on Kompany for us to highlight his struggles, even though he has been a top defender.
Really enjoyed the game though, even when we were up by a few I never felt comfortable knowing you'd have the arguments to back up your claims.
Indeed, I commended your drafting (you forgot to mention some superb club quota management) and AFAIWC it was yours to lose.
It was unfortunate everyone contrived to let Skizzopat put together that unplayable front four.
I understand your logic re:Vieira but it was clear your front three needed some pizzazz, your midfield and defence less so. It would have been risky as he wasn't what you most needed at the time and meant your second pick wasn't going to be all that good, but you simply can't pass on Henry in a PL draft.