All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - Skizzo/Pat vs Gio/Theon

[Theon]

No he wasn't. He's not Maldini, but 151 appearances for Southampton, 36 caps for England, Southampton player of the year, fa cup runner up, PFA Team of the season, PL medal with Chelsea.

He's a significantly worse defender than Vertonghen - Sorry but he was.

He might be a better left back than Vertonghen but Bridge was very offensive and often exposed defensively, particularly as a youngster at Southampton. Vertonghen is the opposite, he'll offer little offensively but he's without question more secure at the back.

Just for reference since you've done the same - 69 Caps for Belgium, PFA Team of the Season, Dutch Footballer of the Year, Eredivisie winner and Player of the Year at Ajax.

He's not Maldini but he's better defensively than a 22 year old Wayne Bridge.

 

[Gio]

The Threat of Gerrard Breaking Forward

FWA Footballer of the Year
PFA Players' Player of the Year
PFA Young Player of the Year
PFA Fans' Player of the Year
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year
FIFPro World XI
UEFA Word XI

Voted Premier League Player of the Month more than any other footballer, voted into the All-Time Premier League Team in the Premier League 20 Seasons Awards and voted into the PFA Team of the Year on a record eight occasions - Exactly half of the sixteen Premier League seasons he has completed.

Whilst he will never be the most popular player on the Caf, Gerrard has unmatched Premier League credentials and is well set up here to be the most influential player on the pitch.

In his peak years 04-09 Gerrard was arguably the most complete midfielder in Europe - pace, vision, skill and a general aura about him that belied his years.

He scored a huge variety of goals, provided assists, won tackles, beat players with ease and was mentally and physically imposing. His importance and influence on the side during those years was unlike anybody else at the time.

With the ultimate Premier League midfield anchor in Claude Makelele securing the side defensively and offering Gerrard protection, he is free to break forward at will and overload SkizzoPat's midfield which is ill set up for the challenge.

Giggs roasting William Gallas and cutting the ball back to Gerrard on the edge of the area is as clear a route to goal as any in the game.

 

[Skizzo]

The point stands that you're going way overboard on the criticism - Kompany of 2011-2013 was fantastic. You don't become one of only three defenders to win Player of the Season by being any otherwise.

Vidic is the best defender on the pitch but there wasnt much between the two in Kompany's prime.

None of what I said is me making anything up. There was a picture to highlight each time he left himself, and his team, badly exposed. The fact remains that as good as Vidic was, he isn't the best defender to cover Kompany y because he will be exposed by the pace of our forwards.

 

[Skizzo]

He's a significantly worse defender than Vertonghen - Sorry but he was.

He might be a better left back than Vertonghen but Bridge was very offensive and often exposed defensively, particularly as a youngster at Southampton. Vertonghen is the opposite, he'll offer little offensively but he's without question more secure at the back.

Just for reference since you've done the same - 69 Caps for Belgium, PFA Team of the Season, Dutch Footballer of the Year, Eredivisie winner and Player of the Year at Ajax.

He's not Maldini but he's better defensively than a 22 year old Wayne Bridge.

Vertonghen is a good footballer, but a poor defender. He's got the worst match up on the field by far. Ronaldo is by far the best player on the pitch, against your weakest link.

 

[antohan]

Not as funny as you claiming Bridge was a better defender than he is.

I said he was a better fullback, which he clearly was, by some distance.

 

[Skizzo]

With the ultimate Premier League midfield anchor in Claude Makelele securing the side defensively and offering Gerrard protection, he is free to break forward at will and overload SkizzoPat's midfield which is ill set up for the challenge.

Giggs roasting William Gallas and cutting the ball back to Gerrard on the edge of the area is as clear a route to goal as any in the game.

So Makelele is anchoring the midfield deep, and Gerrard is bursting forward to overload? How does that overload work when you have a lone striker in Shearer, and then two midfielders against my two midfielders?

Giggs roasting William Gallas and cutting the ball back into an area of most congestion is hardly as clear a route as Ronaldo making Vertonghen consider retirement after tearing him a new one all game. Good strong use of language though in regards to player match ups. I'll give it a whirl myself.

 

[Gio]

Given the scrutiny our own defence has been under, we should remember that this isn't Desailly at his swashbuckling Milan best. He was still a great player (I won't fill you with any of the rubbish sent Kompany's way), but he was into his 30s and prone to the odd error.

This could easily happen: Shearer slipping off him and heading it into the net:

Here's Kevin Campbell stretching him all over the place:

Here's rugged centre-half Matt Elliot turning him inside-out:

I remember this game. Rollercoaster of a match. Great attack Barcelona had, but Desailly's at fault for a couple of goals here:

 

[Skizzo]

The Unstoppable Force of Thierry Henry

PFA Player of the Year
PFA Team of the Year
FWA Footballer of the Year
Premier Golden Boot
Goal of the Season
UEFA Team of the Year
European Golden Boot
French Player of the Year
Overseas Team of the Decade

Thierry Henry is the only player to have won the FWA Footballer of the year three times, and the French Player of the Year a record four times.

On his day, he's virtually unplayable. He can lead the line as a lone striker, play in a two forward set up, drift wide to occupy the left flank, play with his back to goal or drop deep and pick the ball up himself. Possessing fantastic pace, dribbling skills, and an uncanny eye for goal, Henry has scored on some of the best defenders in the world, not just the Premier League.

With a positionally suspect defender in front of him, and a lack of pace in the defence, Henry will look to work the channels. With fantastic movement around him in the hard working grafter, Suarez, and the Ballon D'or winning Ronaldo, Henry will find space with the ball at his feet and cause all sorts of damage.

Ronaldo roasting Ventonghen time and time again will cause the defence to have to shift over and cover each other, meaning Henry will find even more space, and his fantastic one on one scoring ability will prove vital here.

 

[Theon]

So Makelele is anchoring the midfield deep, and Gerrard is bursting forward to overload? How does that overload work when you have a lone striker in Shearer, and then two midfielders against my two midfielders?

I'm not sure what you mean here at all - it's clearly a midfield three against a weaker midfield two. Not sure where the two vs two is coming from.

By overloading what Gio means is clearly breaking forward past Gilberto to get at your defence - there's nothing weird about that at all - Gerrard did that every game for the best part of a decade, with considerably weaker teammates.

I don't think you have any answer to Gerrard, I know it's the Caf so he's never going to get the credit he would else where, but Vieira and Gerrard dominating and breaking past that midfield is a clear threat for the entirety of the game.

And let's not forget the best goal scorer on the pitch is at the end of it - Even Henry didn't match Shearer's goal record at Blackburn.

 

[Skizzo]

So let's dig a little deeper into this Wayne Bridge nonsense. We can take a look at discussions between Chelsea fans on the left back situation they had. Should be pretty one sided, right? I mean, considering how you painted Bridge so far.

Tough one, on current form it's Bridge, but overall defending I'd go for Cole, just by an edge.

Bridge offers more when going forward and as I think they're pretty even when it comes to defending, I think Bridge is the better player.

Simple, Bridge, the better all-round player

Easy choice - Bridgey all the way!

I would vote Bridge every time

I don't feel Cashley gives us anything more than Bridge offers, although it's good having the pair to keep the squad strength in times when one's missing.

Can't vote in this one because I really can't split them. I've tried but I don't believe you could fit a rizla paper between the two in terms of overall ability, and I've said this from the day we brought Cashley.

As such, we never needed to buy Cashley.

Bridgy by a million miles.

So considering the Chelsea fans were not only comparing Bridge to Cole, but majority were preferring him, shows you that he's far from the liability you have been trying to paint him as. His form for Southampton prompted Chelsea to sign him, and his performances carried on impressing for quite a while. Those were all as of 2008

Here's a more recent one after he retired.

Good professional and a top left-back on his day, to the extent that most of us were actually quite pissed off when we signed Ashley Cole. Obviously there was only ever going to be one winner in a battle for our loyalties between Bridge and JT, but it's worth remembering that he was a part of the Premier League's best ever defence (although a title shared with Gallas I suppose) and an excellent club servant while he was here. By all accounts he even seems to have done a good job for Reading and Brighton, although I remember his comedy spell at West Ham with some fondness. I think we even shipped him off to City for a profit!

 

[Gio]

So let's dig a little deeper into this Wayne Bridge nonsense. We can take a look at discussions between Chelsea fans on the left back situation they had. Should be pretty one sided, right? I mean, considering how you painted Bridge so far.















So considering the Chelsea fans were not only comparing Bridge to Cole, but majority were preferring him, shows you that he's far from the liability you have been trying to paint him as. His form for Southampton prompted Chelsea to sign him, and his performances carried on impressing for quite a while. Those were all as of 2008

Here's a more recent one after he retired.

Not really relevant given he's a young Southampton lad for you. It's clearly not nonsense - the footage there shows he simply wasn't at the races - amongst this company - as a defender. Frankly the main reason he got into the England set-up was because there was a dearth in left-backs. After Pearce and Le Saux wound down, and before Cole emerged, Bridge only had to compete with Phil Neville for the left-back slot. And he made an arse of it at Euro 2000 so he became the only viable option for a couple of years.

 

[Skizzo]

I'm not sure what you mean here at all - it's clearly a midfield three against a weaker midfield two. Not sure where the two vs two is coming from.

By overloading what Gio means is clearly breaking forward past Gilberto to get at your defence - there's nothing weird about that at all - Gerrard did that every game for the best part of a decade, with considerably weaker teammates.

I don't think you have any answer to Gerrard, I know it's the Caf so he's never going to get the credit he would else where, but Vieira and Gerrard dominating and breaking past that midfield is a clear threat for the entirety of the game.

And let's not forget the best goal scorer on the pitch is at the end of it - Even Henry didn't match Shearer's goal record at Blackburn.

So Gerrard will be breaking past my midfield while they stand and watch, then he'll be all over Alonso as well to stop us being able to attack. The midfield two is basically because you only have two midfielders making any attempt to attack. Makelele will be sitting deep. I'm guessing no one will be able to run past him right? i think Gio already mentioned that Henry won't be effective breaking forward because he'll be there, even though Gerrard will be able to do it regularly? Sure

You have no answer to any of our MUCH clearer threats. Ronaldo is tearing Vertonghen harder than anyone else on the field. Henry against a defensive pairing lacking pace, with Suarez backing him up.

The best goalscorer on the field is Shearer? Debatable considering Henry has scored the most goals for any one club, plus he was the leading scorer for a record 4 seasons. He was the first player to score 20 goals in the league for 5 straight seasons. So I'd say it's probably not actually as true as you'd like to paint that.

And all of Shearer's goals came as a lone striker, right? He never had a strike partner? He never only played in a 2 man forward line up? Never with Chris Sutton? Or Sheringham? Or Cole?

 

[Theon]

So let's dig a little deeper into this Wayne Bridge nonsense. We can take a look at discussions between Chelsea fans on the left back situation they had.

It's not nonsense at all and I'm not sure what a few posts you've hand-selected from a Chelsea forum have to with Bridge's performance at Southampton.

You've painted Vertonghen as some sort of joke when he was a significantly better defender than Wayne Bridge and you've painted Kompany as a defensive liability who somehow blundered his way to being voted the Premier League Player of the Season.

Do you not think Gio could find some posts on a City forum praising Kompany? Would you see that as some sort of definitive proof and change your arguments accordingly?

Bridge was defensively weak at Southampton - that's a fact.

 

[Skizzo]

Not really relevant given he's a young Southampton lad for you. It's clearly not nonsense - the footage there shows he simply wasn't at the races - amongst this company - as a defender. Frankly the main reason he got into the England set-up was because there was a dearth in left-backs. After Pearce and Le Saux wound down, and before Cole emerged, Bridge only had to compete with Phil Neville for the left-back slot. And he made an arse of it at Euro 2000 so he became the only viable option for a couple of years.

Why isn't it relevant? You make a point in your opening post about Van Der Sar and Vidic having a great understanding....even though you have Van Der Sar from Fulham who never played with Vidic? If you can look in to the future to make a point, I'm sure we can too.

Besides that fact, you're still ignoring how good he actually was for them. Point out your awards for Vidic and Kompany, but ignore the fact that this young lad was Southampton player of the year and in the PFA team of the year.

 

[Skizzo]

It's not nonsense at all and I'm not sure what a few posts you've hand-selected from a Chelsea forum have to with Bridge's performance at Southampton.

You've painted Vertonghen as some sort of joke when he was a significantly better defender than Wayne Bridge and you've painted Kompany as a defensive liability who somehow blundered his way to being voted the Premier League Player of the Season.

Do you not think Gio could find some posts on a City forum praising Kompany? Would you see that as some sort of definitive proof and change your arguments accordingly?

Bridge was defensively weak at Southampton - that's a fact.

As I said above, Bridge was a good player at Southampton, otherwise Chelsea wouldn't have signed him. Their praise for him shows that.

See also comments above about team allegiances for VDS and Vidic meaning nothing when you write about their understanding together.

Vertonghen is going to get absolutely slaughtered against Ronaldo - that's a fact.

Thats the biggest mismatch on the pitch - that's a fact.

You're trying hard to deflect from that, so you're trying to make it seem like your far from peak Robben will have an effect on this "young lad from southampton" who was far better and consistent for his team than Robben.

I don't blame you, I'd try and avoid discussing the Vertonghen issue too. Like I said earlier, he's a good player, poor defender.

 

[Gio]

As I said above, Bridge was a good player at Southampton, otherwise Chelsea wouldn't have signed him. Their praise for him shows that.

See also comments above about team allegiances for VDS and Vidic meaning nothing when you write about their understanding together.

Vertonghen is going to get absolutely slaughtered against Ronaldo - that's a fact.

Thats the biggest mismatch on the pitch - that's a fact.

You're trying hard to deflect from that, so you're trying to make it seem like your far from peak Robben will have an effect on this "young lad from southampton" who was far better and consistent for his team than Robben.

I don't blame you, I'd try and avoid discussing the Vertonghen issue too. Like I said earlier, he's a good player, poor defender.

Three points:

1. Basic principle is that a defensive full-back-cum-centre-half will do a better defensive job but offer less going forward than a converted-winger-masquerading-as-a-full-back. It's pretty clear which categories Vertonghen and Bridge fall into. Neither look great here, but the fact we've got an actual real defender who was excellent in 2012/13 (even winning a Premier League Player of the Month award) with 70 caps for his country, will help when analysing their defensive contributions.
2. Our midfield will dominate the game. Therefore Robben will have more chances to run at Bridge. In contrast, Ronaldo even with his superior indvidiual credentials will be starved of those chances.
3. We have a genuine overlapping wing-back threat in Dan Petrescu. He is very likely to outstretch David Silva down that flank and create two-on-one situations. And his final ball into the box is excellent. He made countless assists during his time in the Premiership.

 

[Skizzo]

Three points:

1. Basic principle is that a defensive full-back-cum-centre-half will do a better defensive job but offer less going forward than a converted-winger-masquerading-as-a-full-back. It's pretty clear which categories Vertonghen and Bridge fall into. Neither look great here, but the fact we've got an actual real defender who was excellent in 2012/13 (even winning a Premier League Player of the Month award) with 70 caps for his country, will help when analysing their defensive contributions.
2. Our midfield will dominate the game. Therefore Robben will have more chances to run at Bridge. In contrast, Ronaldo even with his superior indvidiual credentials will be starved of those chances.
3. We have a genuine overlapping wing-back threat in Dan Petrescu. He is very likely to outstretch David Silva down that flank and create two-on-one situations. And his final ball into the box is excellent. He made countless assists during his time in the Premiership.

1. Bridge was Southampton player off the year and PFA Team of the year. Up against a winger who was far from his best. Vertonghen is against Ronaldo.

2. I'd be more interested in converting chances. You have a physical advantage in the middle. You aren't Barcelona. We'll have plenty of chances and have a much bigger threat going forward. Vertonghen is against Ronaldo.

3. Petrescu overlaps and runs past Silva. Suddenly we have a wide open player who can split your defence, not to mention now you have a gaping hole for Henry. Vertonghen is against Ronaldo.

 

[Theon]

The midfield two is basically because you only have two midfielders making any attempt to attack. Makelele will be sitting deep.

Ronaldo is tearing Vertonghen harder than anyone else on the field.

The best goalscorer on the field is Shearer?

It's a midfield three vs a midfield two - I'm genuinely not at all sure what you're saying. When Mourinho played Makelele/Essien/Lampard it was a midfield three. Likewise here it is a midfield three.

The fact Makelele plays as a holding midfield is irrelevant, he's still contributing to the midfield battle and will unquestionably have more of an impact than Gilberto for instance in your side.

I disagree than Ronaldo is tearing Vertonghen more than Giggs is tearing Gallas. Ronaldo is a much better goal scorer than Giggs but a young Giggs offered the ultimate in old fashioned wing play, consistently attacking and getting the better of his fullback.

As mentioned, I think Robben has the clear beating of Bridge - a young and offensive fullback who was well known for leaving gaps at the back.

Yes Shearer is the best goal scorer - Henry was fantastic as well of course so there is no need to keep getting defensive. Shearer is the All-Time Premier League goal scorer by an absolute mile, a record that will never be beaten, and at his peak scored an exceptional 112 goals in 138 appearances.

Voted four times as the Premier League Player of the Season between 1994-1997, third in the Ballon d'Or, third in the FIFA World Player of the Year and voted the Premier League Player of the Decade - Shearer's goal scoring pre-injury was remarkable, even amongst the likes of Henry.

 

[Gio]

Why isn't it relevant? You make a point in your opening post about Van Der Sar and Vidic having a great understanding....even though you have Van Der Sar from Fulham who never played with Vidic? If you can look in to the future to make a point, I'm sure we can too.

Besides that fact, you're still ignoring how good he actually was for them. Point out your awards for Vidic and Kompany, but ignore the fact that this young lad was Southampton player of the year and in the PFA team of the year.

In any fantasy draft you need to figure out whether players can work together. When Yorke and Cole were paired together, but at different clubs, I didn't see it as an issue. They were such a complementary partnership. The alternative is you assume they don't fit mesh with one another - but why? There would be no evidence to do that. The same goes for Vidic and Van der Sar. They're proven together, have won league titles together, have conquered Europe together (unlike any of your own defence). When a large part of your gameplan is about getting in behind Vidic, it is important to restate how well him and Van der Sar worked together, how few strikers did get in behind as they won everything together.

 

[Skizzo]

It's a midfield three vs a midfield two - I'm genuinely not at all sure what you're saying. When Mourinho played Makelele/Essien/Lampard it was a midfield three. Likewise here it is a midfield three.

The fact Makelele plays as a holding midfield is irrelevant, he's still contributing to the midfield battle and will unquestionably have more of an impact than Gilberto for instance in your side.

I disagree than Ronaldo is tearing Vertonghen more than Giggs is tearing Gallas. Ronaldo is a much better goal scorer than Giggs but a young Giggs offered the ultimate in old fashioned wing play, consistently attacking and getting the better of his fullback.

As mentioned, I think Robben has the clear beating of Bridge - a young and offensive fullback who was well known for leaving gaps at the back.

Yes Shearer is the best goal scorer - Henry was fantastic as well of course so there is no need to keep getting defensive. Shearer is the All-Time Premier League goal scorer by an absolute mile, a record that will never be beaten, and at his peak scored an exceptional 112 goals in 138 appearances.

Voted four times as the Premier League Player of the Season between 1994-1997, third in the Ballon d'Or, third in the FIFA World Player of the Year and voted the Premier League Player of the Decade - Shearer's goal scoring pre-injury was remarkable, even amongst the likes of Henry.

Makelele is in a midfield three, but offering nothing going forward, so there won't be any overload. Plus he still hasn't even figured out who he's marking yet.

Young Giggs isn't tearing Gallas more than Ballon D'Or Ronaldo is ripping Vertonghen.

Ronaldo has a clear beating of him. Much like Henry does of Kompany, a defender known for leaving gaps at the back and making poor decisions.

You can go on about Shearer and his goals, but the fact is you aren't playing him in a system where he scored them all. Besides the fact he has a harder time getting to goal than any of our attackers.

 

[Gio]

In any tight match like this, you need to look at the keepers. The beauty about Van der Sar - as well as his partnership with Vidic - is how he rarely makes mistakes. In the other goals however, it wouldn't be a surprise if Joe Hart dropped a clanger. He's made plenty of those in the last few seasons.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

And let's not forget the best goal scorer on the pitch is at the end of it - Even Henry didn't match Shearer's goal record at Blackburn.

Highly debatable. Shearer's highest scoring season saw him score 34 league goals in 42 games (0.81 goals per game). His best season in terms of goals per game was the following season (0.89 goals per game).

By way of comparison, Ronaldo scored 31 goals in 34 games in 2007-08 (0.91 goals per game), Suarez 31 goals in 33 games in 2013-14 (0.94 goals per game), Henry 27 goals in 32 games in 2005-06 (0.84 goals per game). Of course Henry was also far more creative than Shearer, assisting 20 goals in addition to the 24 he scored in 2002-03.

 

[Skizzo]

In any fantasy draft you need to figure out whether players can work together. When Yorke and Cole were paired together, but at different clubs, I didn't see it as an issue. They were such a complementary partnership. The alternative is you assume they don't fit mesh with one another - but why? There would be no evidence to do that. The same goes for Vidic and Van der Sar. They're proven together, have won league titles together, have conquered Europe together (unlike any of your own defence). When a large part of your gameplan is about getting in behind Vidic, it is important to restate how well him and Van der Sar worked together, how few strikers did get in behind as they won everything together.

Well in which case, we have the only defenders on the pitch that went a whole season undefeated. Sure we have campbell from Spurs and it hadn't happened yet...But he proved it could be done later

 

[Theon]

Highly debatable.

The fact you're even comparing Shearer as a Premier League goalscorer to Suarez is laughable quite frankly.

Suarez scored 69 goals in 110 goals for Liverpool. You can't point to his one freak standout season and try and use that as a basis to claim he's a better goalscorer than Shearer who consistently hit those kind of numbers - it's completely absurd.

For five seasons until his injury Shearer tore up the league with his goalscoring in a way that hasn't been matched since - only Henry has come close but even he has never matched Shearer's peak of 112 goals in 138 games.

Suarez has had one season that's comparable. Kevin Phillips scored 30 goals in 36 games in one Premier League season. Is he as good a goalscorer as Henry?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Kevin Phillips scored 30 goals in 36 games in one Premier League season. Is he as good a goalscorer as Henry?

best striker in the draft and you dumped him in the first round, bastards!

 

[Skizzo]

Good thing Van Der Sar never made any errors to blow games.



or that any of your high profile players made any blunders to cost a game...or more...


even better that 3 out of those 7 were to Henry and Suarez

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The fact you're even comparing Shearer as a Premier League goalscorer to Suarez is laughable quite frankly.

Suarez scored 69 goals in 110 goals for Liverpool. You can't point to his one freak standout season and try and use that as a basis to claim he's a better goalscorer than Shearer who consistently hit those kind of numbers - it's completely absurd.

For five seasons until his injury Shearer tore up the league with his goalscoring in a way that hasn't been matched since - only Henry has come close but even he has never matched Shearer's peak of 112 goals in 138 games.

Suarez has had one season that's comparable. Kevin Phillips scored 30 goals in 36 games in one Premier League season. Is he as good a goalscorer as Henry?

Suarez scored 23 goals in 33 games the season before (0.69 goals per game), a ratio that Shearer bested only 5 times in 19 league campaigns. It was quite clearly a highly debatable claim that you're trying to present as a fact.

A five year peak is a novel approach in the context of these drafts but fair enough. Shearer did slightly outscore Henry in that case - 137 goals in 169 games versus 130 goals in 171 games. He also assisted considerably less, he's playing as a lone centre forward which he very rarely if ever did in this 5 year peak, and he has a young Arjen Robben with a very limited end product as one of his main support acts. Henry has Suarez, Ronaldo and David Silva.

 

[Gio]

Good thing Van Der Sar never made any errors to blow games.

Hart is perhaps the most error-prone keeper in this draft. Sure he's got a higher ceiling than a couple of others, but you're never quite sure when he might have one of those brainfarts.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Hart is perhaps the most error-prone keeper in this draft. Sure he's got a higher ceiling than a couple of others, but you're never quite sure when he might have one of those brainfarts.

The same could be said of Kompany at centre back. Of the remaining centre backs he's as prone to a blunder as anyone.

 

[Gio]

The same could be said of Kompany at centre back. Of the remaining centre backs he's as prone to a blunder as anyone.

We could say much the same of Desailly. Less so Sol and Vidic, their overall league credentials are spot on.

 

[Skizzo]

Hart is perhaps the most error-prone keeper in this draft. Sure he's got a higher ceiling than a couple of others, but you're never quite sure when he might have one of those brainfarts.

And yet he still has 4 golden glove awards. Not bad for someone you're making out to be David James

 

[Gio]

And yet he still has 4 golden glove awards. Not bad for someone you're making out to be David James

Sure he's had some good performances. But that's partly down to the lack of competition during the late 2000s and early 2010s. And partly due to the English media's love in with the man.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

We could say much the same of Desailly. Less so Sol and Vidic, their overall league credentials are spot on.

The errors you pulled up by Desailly are pretty tame in comparison to the litany of times Kompany went charging into no mans land. The league clips basically amount to losing Shearer for the header, and getting turned too easily in the penalty area. The Kevin Campbell one was an odd inclusion - it looks like the other centre back (Lebouef?) has went charging out to the left wing and left Desailly having to pick up two players.

Desailly's early Chelsea career coincided with his World Cup and Euro Championship-winning form at centre back at national team level. He was far from washed up and he's a better and more-credentialed centre back than Kompany. Shearer can and will give him problems, although Sol Campbell alongside him has an ideal style to help mitigate against his threat. Vidic on the other hand, as good as he was, is embroiled in a terrible stylistic match up for him against our lightning quick, skillful attack.

 

[Gio]

The errors you pulled up by Desailly are pretty tame in comparison to the litany of times Kompany went charging into no mans land. The league clips basically amount to losing Shearer for the header, and getting turned too easily in the penalty area. The Kevin Campbell one was an odd inclusion - it looks like the other centre back (Lebouef?) has went charging out to the left wing and left Desailly having to pick up two players.

Desailly's early Chelsea career coincided with his World Cup and Euro Championship-winning form at centre back at national team level. He was far from washed up and he's a better and more-credentialed centre back than Kompany. Shearer can and will give him problems, although Sol Campbell alongside him has an ideal style to help mitigate against his threat. Vidic on the other hand, as good as he was, is embroiled in a terrible stylistic match up for him against our lightning quick, skillful attack.

Desailly certainly wasn't washed up, but he wasn't the beast he was at Milan. He'd come down a notch or two from that level. It was pretty clear from his performances that he was still a good centre-half but had physically declined and made a few mistakes as a result.

At Stamford Bridge, you went from defensive midfielder to central defender. Why? Which position did you prefer?
"The game is much more tactical in Italy and I was in a different phase, too. I managed to get by in midfield. In England I was in a period when I needed to get back to my original position, my real position, at centre-back. The game is so much quicker in England, there’s no time to turn and you are fouled much more. I was heading towards the final years at the top level and I needed to be playing in the position where I was most comfortable"

The errors you pulled up by Desailly are pretty tame in comparison to the litany of times Kompany went charging into no mans land.

The majority of those presented earlier in the thread were unavoidable because there was a black hole in front of the defence.

 

[Skizzo]

Sure he's had some good performances. But that's partly down to the lack of competition during the late 2000s and early 2010s. And partly due to the English media's love in with the man.

The Golden Glove is for the most shut outs in the league. Nothing to do with the media love in with for the Head and Shoulders poster boy.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Desailly certainly wasn't washed up, but he wasn't the beast he was at Milan. He'd come down a notch or two from that level. It was pretty clear from his performances that he was still a good centre-half but had physically declined and made a few mistakes as a result.

That's fair enough - he'd lost a yard of pace and maybe a bit of strength from his monstrous physical prime, although he was still a formidable player physically. I don't think his brilliant partnership with Blanc would have worked anywhere near as well if he didn't have enough pace to compensate for Blanc's slowness.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Looking back over the thread, Gio's made several recurring arguments:

Robben vs Bridge as The Biggest Mismatch:

We're glad to note that this hasn't gotten serious traction, as Ronaldo against Vertonghen is clearly the bigger mismatch. Converted centre back or not, the rash and inconsistent Vertonghen is not better defensively as a left back than Bridge. His former manager stating that

Vertonghen is so poor. Can’t move his feet. He looks elegant with the ball but he just can’t defend, this guy

is damning to say the least. More signficantly, Ronaldo is simply leagues ahead of PL-era Robben. 15 goals and 17 assists from Robben in his entire Premier League career is a paltry return at this stage of the draft, especially given that Gio evidently plans to funnel quite a bit of his play down that flank.

Petrescu Overlapping:

This is a good outlet for him in the attacking phase, but we'll take the cost to benefit ratio all day long. Petrescu bombing forward undermines Gio's attempts to keep a compact defensive shape. Petrescu ma have been better than most PL full backs at balancing his attacking and defensive duties, but he's facing the worst possible opponent here. Henry will swarm all over the space he leaves behind him, and with his freaky pace and high starting position Petrescu just isn't going to make it back.

Midfield Dominance:

Undoubtedly the strongest area of Gio's team, yet I'm still unclear how he imagines this dominance actually playing out. I refer back to our opening post:

We foresee an open match with frequent turnovers of possession. For all their talents and sometimes underrated passing, both Vieira and Gerrard are fairly direct players who aren’t the type to maintain a stranglehold on possession. Similarly, none of his attackers are particularly suited to playing possession football. Combined with our strong defence and the ball-winning skills of Gilberto Silva, we don’t see ourselves being denied possession for large spells of the match.

As I see it, for this midfield dominance to become a reality one of two things needs to happen. Gio's lads need to have an edge in maintaining possession, which just doesn't seem plausible with such a direct midfield and forward line. We have the edge here in fact, with Alonso and David Silva being more suited to changing the tempo of the match and slowing things down when necessary. Alternatively, they need to recover the ball far quicker than us. Again, the compact defense tactic hardly complements this, and the likes of Alonso, David Silva and our attackers are just far too good to cheaply surrender possession under pressure anyway. Moreover, Makelele's assignment is massively complicated by David Silva playing from the left wing, and Ronaldo easily having the beating of Vertonghen on the other side. He'll be dragged all over the pitch here.

Shearer as the 'Best Goalscorer On The Pitch':

Well, this just relies on a highly selective use of statistics, and even using this cherry-picked 5 year peak he still barely edges Henry in terms of goals scored. Both Suarez and Ronaldo outperform him in goals per game in their best seasons. Leaving this aside, Shearer is played here in a lone centre-forward role that we don't ever recall him playing at his peak, with the hit and miss Robben as one of his main creators. There's no doubt in our minds that we have the more formidable attacking unit here.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

vs

I don't know, Gio's team is really really good but the numbers just don't add up well to his side. From reading around here Gerrard is supposed to have a very offensive role. Normally, with midfield partners in Viera and Makalele it would've been sufficient, but here Skizzo has such a massive firepower that it won't be. Ronaldo in itself will demand additional help from Viera/Makalele. Lets for this scenario it's Viera, than Makalele needs to deal with David Silva cutting inside, okay, so far so good for Gio. Now Suarez is getting the ball in the final third from a quick pass from Silva/Ronaldo, seems possible enough, Kompany might typically of him go out and try and stop him early, but in the several scenarios where he won't succeed and Suarez gets by him, you got Suarez running with Henry vs Vidic-Petrescu and Kompany trying to bully his way back, with Ronaldo possibly outpacing Vertonghen with a run inside.
David Silva's crossing to Ronaldo is also a huge threat I haven't seen discussed. Yes, Gio has great headers, but that didn't seem to stop Ronaldo in the past.

Anyway, I think Gio's team is amazing, the prospect of Giggs-Shearer is a nice one to watch, and that midfield is almost impossible to improve in terms of all time PL, but the defence just came out against one of the best attacks possible to build.
I'd love if that was the final after Gio getting better full backs and Skizzo improving Bridge and Desailly

 

[Moby]

Desailly

Surprised you didn't post the goal which Shearer considers the best of his career, where he had to evade the man closely marking him, who was none other than...

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Surprised you didn't post the goal which Shearer considers the best of his career, where he had to evade the man closely marking him, who was none other than...

I was just starting to think we'd make it to full-time without that getting brought up .