All Time Premier League Fantasy Draft: SF - Skizzo/Pat vs Gio/Theon

[Mciahel Goodman]

Two excellent sides, was hard to choose. Skizzo/Pat carries the bigger goal threat, but I prefer the overall balance to Gio/Theon's side. Silva, Silva and Bridge down the left side looks weak defensively to me, and the Ronaldo and co won't do an awful lot defensively. There are a lot of goals in Skizzo's team but Gio/Theon have a very well balanced side capable of absorbing pressure and countering with Robben and Giggs to feed Shearer. Vertonghen at LB is a worry though.

It's really close but I've gone for Gio/Theon for now.

 

[Gio]

How many times did Robben play on the right for Chelsea? It was Duff who played on right when Robben came to Chelsea. Regardless if they was peak Bayern Robben then this could be a tight match, as it is,, it is tough to look past Skizzo. I thought he would start with some kind of 433 and then his front 3 could have been a problem but this is better. Silva is probably marginalised in this set up a bit and it is still questionable if the big 3 all get to play their best role or will they will get in each other's way a bit. But he has enough firepower to close this

A fair bit. He swapped a lot with Duff during games. Have a look at this video - shows him cutting in from the right and bamboozling defenders plenty of times.


Agree about Skizzopat's firepower. It's impressive. I just don't think they'll get the service they'll need - not when they lose the midfield and nor when they don't really have a defence in place to start attacks from deeper positions. Or as it was once put:

You don't try to defend against Ronaldo-Henry-Overmars, that is a bit silly, you just go and choke their supply.

 

[Gio]

Which is the same thing you spouted first about Kompany

You have the biggest mismatch on the field in Vertonghen against Ronaldo. Then a positionally suspect, rash center back who will struggle with the movement and pace of our forwards.

I get that you're trying to deflect it, but both of those are far more problematic for you, than a far from his best Robben against our defense.

Have a look at the video. Bridge will get carved up here. Doubly so with the likelihood of the overlap from Petrescu and, even if Silva tracks him, he won't have the physicality to keep up with him.

 

[Moby]

It's not about who's worse between bridge or vertonghen. Neither belong in this game. But one is facing a pre peak Robben and the other ballon dor winner Ronaldo.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Hardly shambolic. Lloris looks most culpable from that game, Vertonghen's responsiblity for that defeat is far less. Certainly dwindles in comparison to what's been put forward for Bridge.

Spurs fans didn't seem to agree with you in the aftermath of that match:

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/05/0...twitter-to-jan-vertonghens-diabolical-perfor/


The stats would certainly suggest 'shambolic' is a fair description.

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2015/05/1...nham-hotspurs-jan-vertonghen-at-stoke/page/1/

Tottenham Hotspur defender Jan Vertonghen posted arguably his worst performance of the season asSpurs were disappointingly beaten 3-0 at Stoke City on Saturday.

Spurs entered the encounter at the Britannia Stadium facing a mini injury crisis at the back with regular full-backs Kyle Walker and Danny Rose both unavailable for selection.

As a result, Belgian international Vertonghen pushed into a relatively unfamiliar left-back role while Vlad Chiriches partnered Federico Fazio in the middle.

It was a risky strategy from Mauricio Pochettino, and one he will be keen to avoid in the future as Chiriches was red-carded and his other three defenders were all guilty of committing poor defensive errors.

As per the table provided by Opta Stats, Vertonghen was arguably the biggest culprit as a player of his ability and experience should have performed far better despite being pushed out wide.

The former Ajax star failed to record a single tackle over the 90 minutes, and he came out second best more often than not in both the defensive duels and the aerial battles.

The 28-year-old’s error allowed Stoke to open the scoring and his indecisiveness at the back was a major cause for the Potters extending their lead and taking control of the match.

Aside from the basic mistakes, Vertonghen struggled in possession – recording just 17 accurate passes with a pass completion rate of 70.8%, his side’s lowest outfield tally.

Charlie Adam, Steven N’Zonzi and Mame Biram Diouf all profited from the visitors’ sloppy display and sentenced the North Londoners to three defeats in five Premier League matches.

Pochettino needs to strengthen his attacking options this summer, but when viewing his side’s capitulation on Saturday the Argentine may feel the need to bolster his backline too.

Mins Played : 90
Tackles: 0
Aerial Duels Won-Lost: 1-3
Defensive Duels Won-Lost: 2-4
Error Lead To Goal: 1
Accurate Passes: 17
Pass Completion: 70.8%

 

[Gio]

It's not about who's worse between bridge or vertonghen. Neither belong in this game. But one is facing a pre peak Robben and the other ballon dor winner Ronaldo.

Sure, but and this is important - Robben will have many more opportunities to run at Bridge compared to Ronaldo - because of our midfield dominance. In addition, we've got the overlap option not available to Skizzopat.

 

[Skizzo]

And let's not completely overlook Silva's ability to exploit any space in behind. While he may not be the central hub here, he is an outlet for our defenders and midfield to find...and he doesn't need much to spring us forward.

Now imagine that service down the left channel to Henry between an attacking Petrescu and a walkabout Kompany.

 

[Gio]

On that Wayne Bridge carve-up - that was purely from a random selection of the few Southampton games from the early 2000s that were on Youtube. I've not gone through an entire season and cherry-picked a couple of mistakes. That's a lot of the footage I could get my hands on and much of it is pretty damning. In fairness some of it does show off Bridge looking nice going forward, but it's not really the critical issue here. In contrast, all of our defence bar Petrescu comes in the Youtube era. And as such any mistakes they make are much easier to find. And we tend to judge defenders by the mistakes they make, or lack thereof. That's an important point when we judge our defenders and partly why we consider the defenders of today to be so inferior to those of yesteryear.

 

[crappycraperson]

Woops... I just realized I should not have voted and my vote probably won't count. Sorry guys

 

[diarm]

Woops... I just realized I should not have voted and my vote probably won't count. Sorry guys

Probably best to ask MJJ to vote for Gio and avoid confusion?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Woops... I just realized I should not have voted and my vote probably won't count. Sorry guys

No bother mate. Diarm makes a good point though @MJJ could you do the honours when you're online?

 

[Annahnomoss]

What we need to remember here that this is a 19-22 year old Wayne Bridge. Classic converted winger - good overlapper, tidy on the ball, but is he defensively strong enough for a draft semi-final amongst this sort of company?

Good example of Wayne Bridge's time at Southampton. 6-1 defeat to Arsenal. Bridge sets up Southampton's only goal with a nice cross, but five of Arsenal's six goals come from the Southampton left-back area, while his direct opponent Jermaine Pennant grabs a hat-trick. That's Pennant scoring the only goals of his entire Arsenal spell - in a career where he's scored just 19 over the space of 16 years.

A promising player who, as is almost inevitable at that age, was a naive defender and made plenty of mistakes. Irrespective of how you rate Robben, there's little doubt that he will cause endless trouble one-on-one with Bridge here.

On that Wayne Bridge carve-up - that was purely from a random selection of the few Southampton games from the early 2000s that were on Youtube. I've not gone through an entire season and cherry-picked a couple of mistakes. That's a lot of the footage I could get my hands on and much of it is pretty damning. In fairness some of it does show off Bridge looking nice going forward, but it's not really the critical issue here. In contrast, all of our defence bar Petrescu comes in the Youtube era. And as such any mistakes they make are much easier to find. And we tend to judge defenders by the mistakes they make, or lack thereof. That's an important point when we judge our defenders and partly why we consider the defenders of today to be so inferior to those of yesteryear.

I don't think it is fair to judge him based on a three year peak in this example. Petrescu only played one season for Sheffield and he should be judged on that - in which case Bridge should be judged on his best season when he was 22-23 years old rather than a mean average from he was 19.

In 2003-04 alone Bridge played as many games as Petrescu ever did for Sheffield. I think it would have been fair criticism to look at a three year peak on Bridge(Which isn't impressive as you state) if it wasn't for the fact that we'd then have to judge Kompany/Petrescu with the same eyes.

He was in the EPL team of the year in 01-02, but I think he had his best season in his career in 02-03 and then 03-04 where he was a starter in that Mourinho side and a genuinely good player.

 

[Skizzo]

Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs.There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop those things

His point about advantages against a pure 442 are all well and good...But there's no pure 442 here. When we defend, Suarez will drop to pressure Makelele. He won't be watching him saunter around with the field in front of him. Suarez was part of that high pressure style that was so successful for Liverpool that season. Pressure fast and hard, win it back quick, and attack them before they can recover.

 

[Gio]

I don't think it is fair to judge him based on a three year peak in this example. Petrescu only played one season for Sheffield and he should be judged on that - in which case Bridge should be judged on his best season when he was 22-23 years old rather than a mean average from he was 19.

In 2003-04 alone Bridge played as many games as Petrescu ever did for Sheffield. I think it would have been fair criticism to look at a three year peak on Bridge(Which isn't impressive as you state) if it wasn't for the fact that we'd then have to judge Kompany/Petrescu with the same eyes.

He was in the EPL team of the year in 01-02, but I think he had his best season in his career in 02-03 and then 03-04 where he was a starter in that Mourinho side and a genuinely good player.

I agree with the principle of what you're saying. But it's not really the case here because most of that footage is from when he was at his best - as per your final comment there. Frankly I included a three-year peak because I wasn't sure when exactly he was it his very best. Probably Chelsea, but that doesn't count here.

 

[Gio]

His point about advantages against a pure 442 are all well and good...But there's no pure 442 here. When we defend, Suarez will drop to pressure Makelele. He won't be watching him saunter around with the field in front of him. Suarez was part of that high pressure style that was so successful for Liverpool that season. Pressure fast and hard, win it back quick, and attack them before they can recover.

It looks like a 442 to me. Even a 4411 at best, but then you've got Ronaldo on the right who isn't going to be part of any high pressure style, so it takes the sheen off a striker working back in somewhat.

 

[Skizzo]

It looks like a 442 to me. Even a 4411 at best, but then you've got Ronaldo on the right who isn't going to be part of any high pressure style, so it takes the sheen off a striker working back in somewhat.

Not really when you don't have a full back on that side for Ronaldo to track. Makelele has passing options directly in front of him, or back to the defenders. He will struggle far more trying to get the ball up the field under pressure than Alonso or Silva.

 

[Gio]

Not really when you don't have a full back on that side for Ronaldo to track. Makelele has passing options directly in front of him, or back to the defenders. He will struggle far more trying to get the ball up the field under pressure than Alonso or Silva.

Suarez on the wrong side is going to exert more pressure than two thoroughbred midfielders in Vieira and Gerrard?

 

[Moby]

You couldn't find any other match to find an example from?

 

[Skizzo]

Suarez on the wrong side is going to exert more pressure than two thoroughbred midfielders in Vieira and Gerrard?

They'll all exert pressure, the difference is one has a ridiculous range of passing, is calm under pressure, and can dictate play. The other is Makelele.

A quick out ball to either side for Silva or Ronaldo and suddenly you're in trouble. Either your central players move wide to pressure and cover, leaving space centrally. ..or you push your full backs up to pressure, leaving space at the back against pace you just can't match.

 

[Skizzo]

You couldn't find any other match to find an example from?

I hesitated even using it at all. I do have plenty of footage of the little magician...But that best highlights his ability to find the quick pass to set a forward free.

So good he makes Dzeko look like Henry there

 

[Fergus' son]

Skizzo takes this one comfortably.

 

[Gio]

One thing I reckon is we've got a fine set-up for Giggs to shine in. A solid central midfield core that will give him a platform to attack, a pure centre-forward of the highest calibre to get on the end of his crosses, and a pair of lung-bursting central midfielders to get on the end of his cut-backs once he hits the bye-line.


I think Gallas would be in for a tough 90 minutes here.

 

[Physiocrat]

Skizz has way too much firepower. The Silva Henry axis is actually a very good combo. Then there's Ronaldo vs Vertonghen.

My concern with Gio's side all the way through was that it lacked creativity and guile which is very evident here. Shearer and Giggs are great upgrades, the former would be fine as a lone striker but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

 

[Skizzo]

We should really take a look back at Robben here, since I don't think everyone sees how ineffective he would be really.

For starters, he started (from what I've seen) every game of the left wing. That was his position. He might have roamed around during the game, but he never started on the right. It's like playing Ferdinand as a midfielder because he ran with the ball up the field every so often.

Secondly, his end product really isn't anywhere near what you would need it to be here. His scoring output is horrible, and if you have him cutting in, not only does he lose any ability to cross the ball, but he runs into the same space you want Gerrard and Vieira crashing in to.

Lastly, the fact that so many chelsea fans were ok selling him to Madrid tells you plenty. He struggled with injuries. He's probably best remembered in the Premier League for diving, and the incident where it looked like he died after Reina stroked his face.

The fact a good portion of chelsea fans were ok with him leaving tells you all you need to know. They were happy with their alternative options. Malouda, Joe Cole. Injuries and inconsistent form kept him from being anywhere near his best at Chelsea...and here he isn't even being played in the position he was at Chelsea.

 

[crappycraperson]

Skizz has way too much firepower. The Silva Henry axis is actually a very good combo. Then there's Ronaldo vs Vertonghen.

My concern with Gio's side all the way through was that it lacked creativity and guile which is very evident here. Shearer and Giggs are great upgrades, the former would be fine as a lone striker but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

Don't get that problem. Gerrard is quite good in AM role, he created loads in the Liverpool set up behind Gerrard when there was little to average quality on the wings. Plus there is Giggs and PL peak Robben here.

 

[Skizzo]

Skizz has way too much firepower. The Silva Henry axis is actually a very good combo. Then there's Ronaldo vs Vertonghen.

My concern with Gio's side all the way through was that it lacked creativity and guile which is very evident here. Shearer and Giggs are great upgrades, the former would be fine as a lone striker but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem.

This is why we felt so comfortable soaking up pressure and springing counters. For all the great players he has, there's no one to unlock the defence. There's no Silva to pick a pass out between the lines. No Alonso to pick long passes for wingers or forwards to streak on to.

He has a team to grind out results, it's just not an effective strategy against a solid defence that won't be stretched, and no one to find those killer passes.

 

[Skizzo]

Don't get that problem. Gerrard is quite good in AM role, he created loads in the Liverpool set up behind Gerrard when there was little to average quality on the wings. Plus there is Giggs and PL peak Robben here.

PL peak Robben is out of his depth here. Starting on the wrong side, inconsistent form mixed with long spells out with injury, and no real end product.

 

[crappycraperson]

PL peak Robben is out of his depth here. Starting on the wrong side, inconsistent form mixed with long spells out with injury, and no real end product.

Not sure Robben was that bad in PL as you are making him out to be .. he had very good to great half a season at least. But I do agree that there are problems with him starting on the right here.

 

[Moby]

Don't get that problem. Gerrard is quite good in AM role, he created loads in the Liverpool set up behind Gerrard when there was little to average quality on the wings. Plus there is Giggs and PL peak Robben here.

Well none of them are playmakers. Giggs had Scholes in the team, Gerrard had Alonso behind him, Vieira had Bergkamp. It was brought up during the Veron debacle as well, the team needs someone to be the metronome, something that has missed throughout. And when the other team has two quality players to do that job it becomes a valid point to bring up.

 

[crappycraperson]

Well none of them are playmakers. Giggs had Scholes in the team, Gerrard had Alonso behind him, Vieira had Bergkamp. It was brought up during the Veron debacle as well, the team needs someone to be the metronome, something that has missed throughout. And when the other team has two quality players to do that job it becomes a valid point to bring up.

I think you are standardizing the midfield too much here. Gio has stated he is replicating Chelsea's MF which was: Lampard-Essien-Makelele

Neither of those is a playmaker of sorts that you want in there ala Scholes, Alonso. Yet it is definitely one of the best midfield set ups to play in PL history.

Both Vieira and Gerrard can carry the ball. Vieira is underrated when it comes to his passing, he is not going to ping it like Alonso/Scholes but he is even better than Essien in that regard while Essien was a better ball carrier from deep. Gerrard is a bit problematic with his Hollywood balls but he does drop deep to spray it as well.

 

[Gio]

We should really take a look back at Robben here, since I don't think everyone sees how ineffective he would be really.

For starters, he started (from what I've seen) every game of the left wing. That was his position. He might have roamed around during the game, but he never started on the right. It's like playing Ferdinand as a midfielder because he ran with the ball up the field every so often.

Secondly, his end product really isn't anywhere near what you would need it to be here. His scoring output is horrible, and if you have him cutting in, not only does he lose any ability to cross the ball, but he runs into the same space you want Gerrard and Vieira crashing in to.

Lastly, the fact that so many chelsea fans were ok selling him to Madrid tells you plenty. He struggled with injuries. He's probably best remembered in the Premier League for diving, and the incident where it looked like he died after Reina stroked his face.

The fact a good portion of chelsea fans were ok with him leaving tells you all you need to know. They were happy with their alternative options. Malouda, Joe Cole. Injuries and inconsistent form kept him from being anywhere near his best at Chelsea...and here he isn't even being played in the position he was at Chelsea.

Well this is a mixture of spin and bollocks. Let's break it down.

For starters, he started (from what I've seen) every game of the left wing. That was his position. He might have roamed around during the game, but he never started on the right. It's like playing Ferdinand as a midfielder because he ran with the ball up the field every so often.

Wrong and a fatuous comparison. I've provided a highlights compilation of his time at Chelsea where he does a lot of great work from the right flank. Him and Duff were effectively interchangeable on both flanks. He's since proven himself tremendously well on the right flank.

Secondly, his end product really isn't anywhere near what you would need it to be here. His scoring output is horrible, and if you have him cutting in, not only does he lose any ability to cross the ball, but he runs into the same space you want Gerrard and Vieira crashing in to.

He's not in here to score goals (although he's well capable up of doing so up against Bridge). He's here to isolate Bridge, stretch the play, service Shearer and set up Gerrard/Vieira/Giggs. Let's not get into yesterday's debate of comparing the outputs of free-roaming wide attackers with genuine wingers.

Lastly, the fact that so many chelsea fans were ok selling him to Madrid tells you plenty. He struggled with injuries. He's probably best remembered in the Premier League for diving, and the incident where it looked like he died after Reina stroked his face.

Bit tenuous that one. It's a bit like Arsenal fans not being gutted when Henry left: it was the right time. Let's review his Chelsea career. First six months or so, he was sensational. The next 18 months, he was very good. Not all the time, but anyone expected to beat men regularly (the hardest job on the park) isn't going to be super-consistent. And in the final season it fizzled out for him, injuries didn't help, and a parting of the ways was the best for all parties.

 

[Gio]

Well none of them are playmakers. Giggs had Scholes in the team, Gerrard had Alonso behind him, Vieira had Bergkamp. It was brought up during the Veron debacle as well, the team needs someone to be the metronome, something that has missed throughout. And when the other team has two quality players to do that job it becomes a valid point to bring up.

Which playmaker did Giggs have before Scholes? The ginger prince as a playmaker only really came to the fore during the second half of Giggsy's career. He'd been tearing up defences across Europe for a decade before that.

 

[Skizzo]

I think you are standardizing the midfield too much here. Gio has stated he is replicating Chelsea's MF which was: Lampard-Essien-Makelele

Neither of those is a playmaker of sorts that you want in there ala Scholes, Alonso. Yet it is definitely one of the best midfield set ups to play in PL history.

Both Vieira and Gerrard can carry the ball. Vieira is underrated when it comes to his passing, he is not going to ping it like Alonso/Scholes but he is even better than Essien in that regard while Essien was a better ball carrier from deep. Gerrard is a bit problematic with his Hollywood balls but he does drop deep to spray it as well.

The problem just compounds itself if Gerrard drops deep for his Hollywood balls. Firstly, there's a high chance of losing possession, but then he loses anyone for Shearer to link with if he does win those balls to knock down.

 

[Moby]

I think you are standardizing the midfield too much here. Gio has stated he is replicating Chelsea's MF which was: Lampard-Essien-Makelele

Neither of those is a playmaker of sorts that you want in there ala Scholes, Alonso. Yet it is definitely one of the best midfield set ups to play in PL history.

Both Vieira and Gerrard can carry the ball. Vieira is underrated when it comes to his passing, he is not going to ping it like Alonso/Scholes but he is even better than Essien in that regard while Essien was a better ball carrier from deep. Gerrard is a bit problematic with his Hollywood balls but he does drop deep to spray it as well.

That is all fine, but the midfield tried to be copied here was not known for it's creativity, correct? No one is saying this midfield unit is not functional, it is perfectly setup but at the same time it cannot be said to have top notch creativity. Whether you think that is necessary to unlock a tight defense, is upto you. But it not being creative at a level where it can be brought up as a strength of the unit is a plain and simple fact.

 

[Physiocrat]

This is why we felt so comfortable soaking up pressure and springing counters. For all the great players he has, there's no one to unlock the defence. There's no Silva to pick a pass out between the lines. No Alonso to pick long passes for wingers or forwards to streak on to.

He has a team to grind out results, it's just not an effective strategy against a solid defence that won't be stretched, and no one to find those killer passes.

Wierdly his best balanced midfield was with Veron in round one, then he went all Graham Taylor. I think he could have picked Xabi as his first reinforcement after round one but went for the Crab instead

 

[Moby]

Which playmaker did Giggs have before Scholes?

Spoiler: Playmakers

All of them where more responsible for providing the creative spark than Giggsy, who himself wasn't shabby by any means but not often the main man responsible.

 

[Stobzilla]

Gio takes this every day, that midfield gets stomped on

 

[Gio]

That is all fine, but the midfield tried to be copied here was not known for it's creativity, correct? No one is saying this midfield unit is not functional, it is perfectly setup but at the same time it cannot be said to have top notch creativity. Whether you think that is necessary to unlock a tight defense, is upto you. But it not being creative at a level where it can be brought up as a strength of the unit is a plain and simple fact.

Wierdly his best balanced midfield was with Veron in round one then he went all Graham Taylor. I think he could have picked Xabi as his first reinforcement after round one but went for the Crab instead

You're both idealists though. Chelsea's Premier League winning machine is the model we've copied here and we've upgraded on it in two of the three positions. And yes Gerrard and Vieira are both more creative than Essien/Lampard/Thiago. That is the midfield model though that has brought the most success to English teams in Europe since 1992. In the mid-to-late 2000s hey-dey of the Premier League, the top four had hard-running, hard-grafting, compact and counter-attacking midfields. That was a big, big reason in bringing them success, the kind of success they can no longer achieve with City playing midfield silly buggers, Chelsea and United dropping quality, and Arsenal never really cutting the mustard.

 

[Moby]

You're both idealists though. Chelsea's Premier League winning machine is the model we've copied here and we've upgraded on it in two of the three positions. And yes Gerrard and Vieira are both more creative than Essien/Lampard/Thiago. That is the midfield model though that has brought the most success to English teams in Europe since 1992. In the mid-to-late 2000s hey-dey of the Premier League, the top four had hard-running, hard-grafting, compact and counter-attacking midfields. That was a big, big reason in bringing them success, the kind of success they can no longer achieve with City playing midfield silly buggers, Chelsea and United dropping quality, and Arsenal never really cutting the mustard.

Not idealists man, it is a criticism that you should expect in a semi final. Your team, specially in comparison to the opposition pales when it comes to creativity, just like his pales in comparison to yours when it comes to physicality, steel and work rate. None of that means that your lads cannot pick a pass to save their lives or his lads are a bunch of old women..

 

[Gio]

All of them where more responsible for providing the creative spark than Giggsy, who himself wasn't shabby by any means but not often the main man responsible.

But it was the premise that Giggsy needed a creative playmaker to flourish, which isn't the case. Beckham was 70 yards away on the other flank and Giggs largely fed off a Keane/Robson/Ince/Butt midfield during the bulk of the 1990s.