Skizzo
Full Member
Been waiting for itSurprised you didn't post the goal which Shearer considers the best of his career, where he had to evade the man closely marking him, who was none other than...
Been waiting for itSurprised you didn't post the goal which Shearer considers the best of his career, where he had to evade the man closely marking him, who was none other than...
I was as well, I read the start of that post and assumed it was about that until he mentioned a header.Surprised you didn't post the goal which Shearer considers the best of his career, where he had to evade the man closely marking him, who was none other than...
I'm still finding it mind-boggling that you could put that together, what was everyone else playing at?@VivaJanuzaj nice post. I think it runs similar to what pat and I have been trying to get across.
Setting up like we have it forced the strong midfield to pull apart, or run the risk of getting the flanks badly exposed. Once that space starts opening up, we have a ruthless combination of attacking players against a defence not quite up to the task.
Then again, some might say I'm biased
It all started with the manager having the first pick picking Shearer over Ronaldo... who does that!I'm still finding it mind-boggling that you could put that together, what was everyone else playing at?
That probably would have had a few knock on effects as far as tactics, picks and reinforcementsIt all started with the manager having the first pick picking Shearer over Ronaldo... who does that!
We've come so far from our first match with Ronaldo on the left, Kewell on the right and saha through the MiddleI'm still finding it mind-boggling that you could put that together, what was everyone else playing at?
Embracing our inner muppets and choosing attackers for all of our first 3 reinforcement picks helped too
That strategy is definitely a keeper. I think we did quite well initially to keep some of our Utd/Arsenal/Liverpool spots free or easily up-gradable too. Maybe too well in fact as we could still start another Utd player which is a strange situation at this stage in a PL draft!
I knew around your third pick that you would be able to go far unless something insane happens like a bad draw. Getting a top attacking player first up and then two defenders who you can take till the final after that is one of my favourite top-order draft strategies. Works like a charm.
That was a bad setup, and I told you so at the time, but once you tweaked it to Kewell-Juninho-Ronaldo with Saha up top I loved it and would have expected you to focus your attention elsewhere. Simply put, I reckon you have two guys on the bench who were better PL players than Robben, who is actually on the pitch. It's a completely mental embarrassment of riches.We've come so far from our first match with Ronaldo on the left, Kewell on the right and saha through the Middle
Yeah I think we over thought that one a bit, but fortunately it was an easy enough fix. Since then we've had good fortune with the players available in reinforcements, odd reinforcement choices elsewhere, and a splash of good fortune. Hell, we didn't get Alonso until our 4th reinforcement pick.That was a bad setup, and I told you so at the time, but once you tweaked it to Kewell-Juninho-Ronaldo with Saha up top I loved it and would have expected you to focus your attention elsewhere. Simply put, I reckon you have two guys on the bench who were better PL players than Robben, who is actually on the pitch. It's a completely mental embarrassment of riches.
Saha just wasn't rated at all though which surprised me. We started him over the far more prolific Ian Wright as we felt he was the better fit in terms of bringing our wingers into the game with his selfless approach play (much like Benzema and Ronaldo at Madrid now), but he got a shite reception outside of Aldo and yourself, so he had to be replaced really. Kewell was tough to drop as I was practically foaming at the mouth at the prospect of getting him initially, and he got a good reception when we moved him back to the left wing, but we just couldn't pass up on Henry.That was a bad setup, and I told you so at the time, but once you tweaked it to Kewell-Juninho-Ronaldo with Saha up top I loved it and would have expected you to focus your attention elsewhere. Simply put, I reckon you have two guys on the bench who were better PL players than Robben, who is actually on the pitch. It's a completely mental embarrassment of riches.
That and people inexplicably passing on henry etc in the next reinforcement round.It all started with the manager having the first pick picking Shearer over Ronaldo... who does that!
Looking back over the thread, Gio's made several recurring arguments:
Robben vs Bridge as The Biggest Mismatch:
We're glad to note that this hasn't gotten serious traction, as Ronaldo against Vertonghen is clearly the bigger mismatch. Converted centre back or not, the rash and inconsistent Vertonghen is not better defensively as a left back than Bridge. His former manager stating that
is damning to say the least. More signficantly, Ronaldo is simply leagues ahead of PL-era Robben. 15 goals and 17 assists from Robben in his entire Premier League career is a paltry return at this stage of the draft, especially given that Gio evidently plans to funnel quite a bit of his play down that flank.
Petrescu Overlapping:
This is a good outlet for him in the attacking phase, but we'll take the cost to benefit ratio all day long. Petrescu bombing forward undermines Gio's attempts to keep a compact defensive shape. Petrescu ma have been better than most PL full backs at balancing his attacking and defensive duties, but he's facing the worst possible opponent here. Henry will swarm all over the space he leaves behind him, and with his freaky pace and high starting position Petrescu just isn't going to make it back.
Sorry, I lost you at this point. The edge in midfield?Midfield Dominance:
As I see it, for this midfield dominance to become a reality one of two things needs to happen. Gio's lads need to have an edge in maintaining possession, which just doesn't seem plausible with such a direct midfield and forward line. We have the edge here in fact
Well under your alternative interpretation, Kevin Phillips would be the best goalscorer on the park. But neverthless let's indulge this and be a little less selective about those statistics then:Shearer as the 'Best Goalscorer On The Pitch':
Well, this just relies on a highly selective use of statistics
Refreshing to hear some more balanced comments. I think we can turn some of those around:don't know, Gio's team is really really good but the numbers just don't add up well to his side. From reading around here Gerrard is supposed to have a very offensive role. Normally, with midfield partners in Viera and Makalele it would've been sufficient, but here Skizzo has such a massive firepower that it won't be. Ronaldo in itself will demand additional help from Viera/Makalele. Lets for this scenario it's Viera, than Makalele needs to deal with David Silva cutting inside, okay, so far so good for Gio. Now Suarez is getting the ball in the final third from a quick pass from Silva/Ronaldo, seems possible enough, Kompany might typically of him go out and try and stop him early, but in the several scenarios where he won't succeed and Suarez gets by him, you got Suarez running with Henry vs Vidic-Petrescu and Kompany trying to bully his way back, with Ronaldo possibly outpacing Vertonghen with a run inside.
David Silva's crossing to Ronaldo is also a huge threat I haven't seen discussed. Yes, Gio has great headers, but that didn't seem to stop Ronaldo in the past.
Anyway, I think Gio's team is amazing, the prospect of Giggs-Shearer is a nice one to watch, and that midfield is almost impossible to improve in terms of all time PL, but the defence just came out against one of the best attacks possible to build.
I'd love if that was the final after Gio getting better full backs and Skizzo improving Bridge and Desailly
That basic principle ignores Vertonghen's actual qualities as a footballer. He's skilled on the ball and a rash, error-prone defender with fairly average pace. Converted centre-back or not, he's still not much of a defender, and the fact remains he's up against Ronaldo while Bridge faces Robben.
- Basic principle is that a defensive full-back-cum-centre-half will do a better defensive job but offer less going forward than a converted-winger-masquerading-as-a-full-back. It's pretty clear which categories Vertonghen and Bridge fall into. Bridge used to be a winger and fell back to full-back. It obviously took him a few seasons to learn the ropes at the back as the evidence I earlier presented shows. Neither look great here, but the fact we've got an actual real defender who was excellent in 2012/13 (even winning a Premier League Player of the Month award, as well as the Premier League Team of the Year spot) with 70 caps for his country, will help when analysing their defensive contributions.
Again, 'dominating the midfield' is quite a nebulous term. We have no problem acknowledging that you've got the stronger midfield, but are you claiming that a front six of Makelele/Vieira/Gerrard/Giggs/Shearer/Robben are going to be racking up huge possession stats? Or that Gilberto/Alonso/David Silva are incapable of maintaining possession when we do get the ball? There'll be frequent turnovers in possession here and that plays right into our hands.Our midfield will dominate the game. Therefore Robben will have more chances to run at Bridge. In contrast, Ronaldo even with his superior indvidiual credentials will be starved of those chances. It's a simple and incontestable premise that sets out why Bridge will be more exposed - even though Ronaldo is the better player/goalscorer.
An edge in that specific aspect of midfield play. Alonso and David Silva have fitted comfortably into Spain's tiki taka style of play - its hardly outrageous to suggest that they're more suited to changing the tempo of our play and playing possession football at times than Gerrard and Vieira. I haven't said once that they're better midfielders generally.Sorry, I lost you at this point. The edge in midfield?
Top goalscorer in Newcastle United history? Most European goals scored for Newcastle? Utterly irrelevant as none of our forwards actually played for Newcastle. Most Premier League goals in a 42 game season is again largely irrelevant as a basis for comparison as none of our forwards played in a 42 game PL campaign. Suarez and Ronaldo have both equalled Shearer's tally in a 38 game season having played less games.Well under your alternative interpretation, Kevin Phillips would be the best goalscorer on the park. But neverthless let's indulge this and be a little less selective about those statistics then:
- Top goalscorer in Premier League history: 260 goals
- Most Premier League goals in a 42-game season: 34
- Most Premier League goals in a 38-game season: 31
- Most Premier League hat-tricks: 11
- Top goalscorer in Newcastle United history: 206
- Most European goals scored for Newcastle United: 30
Its facile to try to present our formation as a flat 4-4-2. Suarez's starting position is the obvious giveaway. Defensively he's easily got the workrate and physicality to make a good stab at pressing Makelele and cutting off passing lanes, and in possession both of our strikers are more than capable of dropping off to probe for space between the lines.The fundamental issue I have is the way that SkizzoPat's centre midfield has effectively been abandoned. I can understand the premise - we're going to lose in there quality-wise, so let's forget about it and compensate elsewhere on the park. But in the modern game it just doesn't work like that. Lose the midfield and 9/10 you lose the game. If you lose control of the midfield, but still hold a strong defensive shape, where the core is protected, then you can occasionally get away with it. But again that's not the case here. I cannot think of a team that has played with such a set-up and been successful at the top level since perhaps Brazil 1994. And they had two of the greatest defensive midfielders in history holding the 4-4-2 fort. United's 4-4-2 relied heavily on the absolute quality of the midfield two and the sheer graft of the wide pair. Neither of those critical elements to success are present here. And frankly it wasn't long before United's 4-4-2 became old hat and overtaken by 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3. Atletico are a more recent example of a successful 4-4-2, but in truth that's a narrow 4-2-2-2 where it's effectively four central midfielders, again, attempting to get a stranglehold of the centre of the park. A huge reason behind Chelsea's unprecedented points total of 95 in 2004/05 was how they played this 4-3-3 model and many of the Premiership teams were still persevering with 4-4-2.
I would buy a 4-4-2 if it recognised why it can rarely compete in the modern game. You'd need both a pair of world-class players in the middle to exert a class advantage and box-to-box machines on the flanks who would need to play very tucked. Not one of those elements are present here. And even that model doesn't work as Ferguson realised in the early 2000s. The concept of three lines is as dead as a dodo. Most teams play with a minimum of four, usually five now.
Everything else is just fantasy.
http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...-football-manager-2014-tactic-passion4fm.htmlWhile often setting up a 4-3-1-2 when Riquelme was at the club, to accommodate his considerable skill (Riquelme deemed to be one of the last, or the last classic no 10 in football), this often meant he could easily be taken out of the game by opposing defensive midfielders. This led to Pellegrini utilising his fluid 4-4-2, a combination of the European/English organised 'two banks of four' and the South American fluidity, flair and finesse with the use of 'interiores' (where Riquelme thrived because he had much more space) on the wings.
While largely unused in Europe before (why Cazorla was thought of as a winger when joining Arsenal), the non-existing Football Manager player role 'interiore' was widely spread and in use in South American football. In basic terms, an 'interiore' was a wide player tucking inside while the team was in possession and dropping out wide again when without it, thus creating 'two banks of four' when defending and a system somewhat resembling the more famous Brazilian 4-2-2-2, when in possession of the ball. The tactical idea of this was to create as many passing triangles as possible, most notably between the 'interiore', the striker and the fullback on either flank. The two central midfielders would usually just support the attacks, providing cover on the exposed flanks.
I'd imagine Gerrard, Shearer and Giggs have racked up about half of your team's appearances, and they've played vastly more PL seasons between them than the likes of Henry, Suarez and Ronaldo. Its not a particularly impressive stat from that perspective.As for the relative Premiership credentials of both teams, here is the number of Premier League Team of the Year spots both teams have:
Gio/Theon attack: 14
Skizzo/Pat attack: 12
Gio/Theon midfield: 14
Skizzo/Pat midfield: 1
Gio/Theon defence: 8
Skizzo/Pat defence: 6
Gio/Theon keeper: 3
Skizzo/Pat keeper: 2
OVERALL
Gio/Theon XI: 39
Skizzo/Pat XI: 21
Refreshing to hear some more balanced comments. I think we can turn some of those around:
We will get the better of all of those battles, and there's no cover in place for any of them. And we will have the opportunity to win those battles because our midfield will yield control of the game. At least we've acknowledged the considerable threat of the opposition, deploying Makelele in the most important space in the park to shut it out. That means the centre-halves can focus on the job of dealing with their direct opposition, whereas given the mismatch in central midfield numbers, plus those mismatches above, the opposition's centre-halves will have players bearing down on them from all angles.
- Who is helping Gallas cope with Giggs in full flight?
- Who is helping Bridge deal with Robben?
- Who is helping Alonso deal with Vieira?
- Who is helping Gilberto deal with Gerrard?
Glad you both liked it. It does seem a bit unfair that some voters keep their thinking process inside and just say where they vote and grab their side. These games have more balance and the thinking should be the same.@VivaJanuzaj nice post. I think it runs similar to what pat and I have been trying to get across.
Setting up like we have it forced the strong midfield to pull apart, or run the risk of getting the flanks badly exposed. Once that space starts opening up, we have a ruthless combination of attacking players against a defence not quite up to the task.
Then again, some might say I'm biased
No one really to be honest, and I do see it getting ugly at times. But I just think his defense is better built to sit deep, squeeze tight and sulk the pressure. Campbell wasn't the type of defender to go out and try to get it early, Desailly maybe was but he was definitely smarter than Kompany in doing that. Gallas will have many encounters against Giggs, and because of that, I think Giggs will surely get number of crosses(or shots) in this game. Robben, doesn't require constant attention from another midfielder from the right at his Chelsea time imo. He was really really good, but not one who necessarily needs a double up against or it will be hell like Giggs. When Petrescu joins the attack Silva will be there to track and add the extra body, and Silva has wonderful work rate. That should do it for me, Robben cutting inside worst case scenario he still has Campbell there, and he's amazing left foot wasn't as amazing these days. Gilberto doesn't need help with Gerrard imo, you usually don't need 2vs1 in midfield battles, you almost never get them, it's more of a 2vs3 in Gerrard-Shearer against Gilberto-Cambell-Desailly. Same goes for Alonso and Viera, I don't think Alonso usually gets a partner to double up a midfielder in defence.
- Who is helping Gallas cope with Giggs in full flight?
- Who is helping Bridge deal with Robben?
- Who is helping Alonso deal with Vieira?
- Who is helping Gilberto deal with Gerrard?
As a defender Desailly was arguably at his peak between 96-00 where he was in the team of the tournament as a centre back in three consecutive Euro/Worlds. Having joined Chelsea in 98 in the middle of his peak he was also selected in to the team of the decade as one of the two best centre backs the EPL saw between 92-93 until 01-02 which is remarkable for someone who had just played three seasons.Given the scrutiny our own defence has been under, we should remember that this isn't Desailly at his swashbuckling Milan best. He was still a great player (I won't fill you with any of the rubbish sent Kompany's way), but he was into his 30s and prone to the odd error.
This is probably quite true. Some perhaps unwarranted slightly, but it often happens in drafts as it goes on. Both sides were probably guilty of it at times...but it opened up some other discussions without getting too petty about it.Hate seeing great players being bashed in to obscurity and the games should be more about tactical ways to beat your opponent rather than "Your players are shit". That goes both ways, a lot of trash talking in this thread.
Congratulations on the win and poor luck Gio/Theon. What a fantastic central midfield you brought together, perfect.This is probably quite true. Some perhaps unwarranted slightly, but it often happens in drafts as it goes on. Both sides were probably guilty of it at times...but it opened up some other discussions without getting too petty about it.
Stobzilla with the most scathing reviewCongratulations on the win and poor luck Gio/Theon. What a fantastic central midfield you brought together, perfect.
Gio takes this every day, that midfield gets stomped on
Indeed, I voted and stopped reading the thread the moment Desailly staarted being painted as some sort of liability. Some even suggested he needs upgradingHate seeing great players being bashed in to obscurity and the games should be more about tactical ways to beat your opponent rather than "Your players are shit". That goes both ways, a lot of trash talking in this thread.
Can you think of any full season where Desailly played as a centre back at Milan? Was trying to find one but I constantly just found him playing and listed as a midfielder.Indeed, I voted and stopped reading the thread the moment Desailly staarted being painted as some sort of liability. Some even suggested he needs upgrading
Shearer is the best goalscorer in the draft mate - it's really not debatable and only a complete moron would try to argue that Luis Suarez was a better Premier League goalscorer than Shearer.If Theon had said 'Top Goalscorer in Premier League history' instead of 'best goalscorer on the pitch' then this would have been a non-argument. Instead its opinion masquerading as fact, which I described as highly debatable, well, because it is highly debatable.
I think that's fair. But it was the same with Kompany - he was clearly world class between 2010 and 2012, then dropped a level or two after that - so it was really about introducing some balance into the Kompany-bashing (and Bridge-bashing and Vertonghen-bashing). Funnily enough some of Desailly's issues at Chelsea were due to the lackadaisical Lebeouf while Kompany's were due to the lackadaisical Toure, so context is everything.He was clearly a world class defender in the middle of his peak 30-32 and nothing short of it - even if he of course also faded away at Chelsea between 01-03 where he was way out of his depth.
I believe that you are forgetting Cantona. In PL draft he is definitely up there with the bestAlongside that there is a pool of world-class central midfielders but a reduction in the same quality behind the striker (after Bergkamp really)
In terms of Premier League performances, yes, that's fair.I believe that you are forgetting Cantona. In PL draft he is definitely up there with the best
Yup. Often becomes a spiral, when one player is bashed you bash theirs, then they bash yours and so on.Good game @Skizzo and @Pat_Mustard. I knew the voters would look at Ronaldo/Vertonghen and it would be game over.
I think that's fair. But it was the same with Kompany - he was clearly world class between 2010 and 2012, then dropped a level or two after that - so it was really about introducing some balance into the Kompany-bashing (and Bridge-bashing and Vertonghen-bashing). Funnily enough some of Desailly's issues at Chelsea were due to the lackadaisical Lebeouf while Kompany's were due to the lackadaisical Toure, so context is everything.
Indeed, I commended your drafting (you forgot to mention some superb club quota management) and AFAIWC it was yours to lose.Good game @Skizzo and @Pat_MustardOn the whole I don't feel we could have drafted or argued much better. At the start of the draft, looking ahead to your perfect Premier League XI, the front three will inevitably be Henry, Shearer and Ronaldo. Alongside that there is a pool of world-class central midfielders but a reduction in the same quality behind the striker (after Bergkamp really). Therefore it made sense to go 4-3-3, build it around those great CMs and hopefully get the right upgrades. The only exception would've been snapping up Henry when we had the chance, albeit it would've meant picking up a second-tier CM on the way back down, rather than end up with two final-ready players in Vieira and Vidic as we did.