The fecking ego on some people
Amad Diallo | Sunderland Loan Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
That can only happen if we as fans create an ideal atmosphere for our young players to grow. At the moment it feels like some posters are just waiting to pounce on our players and club just to moan for the sake of it.
Moan for the sake of it? They boy was meh for a Sunderland team playing in championship.. he's already 21? What sort of hope he can get in 2-3 years time? You'd think he'd even be the next Park Ji Sung?
He's a failed buy. No amount of sugar coated and cheerleading can change that.
He'll go on loan to loan and fade to obscenity. You can quote me on it
And that's nothing personal. We just bought players who's not good enough, and at his ideal best would only be midtable starter... And that's best case scenario
Isn't it pathetic how some people always chose to move the goalpost instead of admitted they were wrong?
Now that his wrong claim got called out and proven for the lie it was, he switched to another argument. Always sad and pathetic to read.
Apparently I'm one of them
It can also be the other way too, many people on here were clamouring for him to be involved in the first team straight away, when he clearly wasn't ready. That wouldn't have been helpful either.
I think fans just need to be patient, which is difficult for sure.
I'm just happy he is getting game time as he never seemed to settle at Rangers.
Currently the likes of Elanga and Garnarcho are ahead of Amad in terms of development, however if he carries on getting the game time for Sunderland he will develop quicker than being on the fringes of the first team.
Do we have a time traveler amongst us. While you are it can you give me the winning lottery numbers too.
Are you saying players usually don´t develop much at age 20-23?
My feeling after watching football for 35 years is that an awful lot can happen for players at that age.
Nope. Very few had that big jump. You'll be showing something special by 21 if you're special. Very rare for player to jump magically from a nobody to top level in 2 years. Not playing for Sunderland under a mediocre coach.
You need to have that raw talent in the first place.
Beck Giggs and Scholes did their loan. But its already clear they're special and it's a matter of time. With amad we're still hoping he'd come good and transform to 2x the player he is. Big ask
So he's 21 years old, costs £40m, isn't ready for Sunderland and will fade to "obscenity", did I miss anything else?
The criticsm Amad receives is really strange
I think you meant obscurity
The bolded part is just not true!
Some brilliant players developed their game late on.
Vardy, RVN, Klose, Wright, Drogba to name a few all developed after the age of 20, there's many many more.
I think there's a lot of frustration about the summer 2020 transfer window. We signed Van de Beek, Amad, Pellistri, Telles and Cavani. Of the five you can argue whether any was actually a success.
A lot of fans felt we went into that window needing proper reinforcement in central midfield and were baffled that we didn't get it. I think that affects how we look at the players we actually did sign. Its not just that we signed them, its that we signed them and we arguably didn't need any of them. At the time we had Greenwood performing at inside right, so people were baffled at buying Amad and Pellistri unless they were sure bets. They're obviously not sure bets.
Personally, I dunno what Amad's ceiling looks like. The best I can remember him playing, for us, was that end of season match at Wolves in 2020-21. I thought he might be able to kick on from that and play at Premier League level. Haven't seen anything like that since. I live in hope. However, wouldn't be shocked to see him sold in a year or so.
I think for a player we paid £19 million for 2 years ago that could rise to double based on what he does, having started less than 5 games for us since it’s been a disappointing signing. We’ll do well to recoup all of our money back i think .
As yes. Thank you
Wrong. One of the best right wingers in the league currently is proof that you are wrong. Salah was raw and had the tendency to drift in and out of games before making a significant jump in his mid 20s.
He's quite clearly taking the piss.
People are more concerned with being "right" than wanting our young players to succeed, it's to validate their narcissistic view that their opinions on football are actually well-informed and should be treated as gospel, hence why they virtually never admit they were wrong and instead shift the goalposts.
Yeah, the guy is a clown.Wait, is this the same poster who said Elanga has superb technique and off the ball movement or something recently?
I had a small back and forth with him in the Martinez performance thread where he insisted Lindelof is very good on the ball and said he was comparable to Licha
Either some people are just having 'fun' wumming and being different or they really believe this. With the takes in this thread also, yikes.
Bang on.
100% seen this far too often on the forum lately. It's all just an ego check.
You see it with Antony already. People were seething with his start and as soon as the spin criticism came they shouldn't stop flaming him. So weird.
I’ve never been to Old Trafford, but the impression I get is one of fans being very reluctant to come down hard on players (unlike say Arsenal fans.) I’m also under the impression that it’s the same with the traveling support. Am I mistaken?
Is what ok?
A young player not being immediately of the level we need?
Yes I think that's fine and completely standard.
This is important to remember. At this age the development process is the most important factor. You’re still learning how to impose yourself on the game, exactly where you should be positioned and where you should be moving, learning about how to work in tandem with your teammates in an offensive sense by finding yourself in space and doing the inverse, and also in a defensive sense by ensuring you know how to keep to the team structure and making sure you’re not vacating areas at the wrong time that make your team vulnerable.
It’s incredibly competitive and you’re playing physical grizzled pros with a lot of experience and dedication. A lot of supporters view it through the prism of a video game, where if Player A is this talented if he goes to a certain league he will dominate regardless of age and context, and to not do so is proof he won’t be good enough. And it really doesn’t work like that, he’s still very young and he’s joined a brand new team with new teammates, in a league he’s never played in before. He needs time to learn his craft, and it’s a great sign that he’s showing progress over his spell there.
Harry Kane’s loan spells always get mentioned, and with good reason, he spent time in league 1 and the championship honing his craft and getting the experience he needed to develop. He didn’t go there and dominate, he got an education. There’s loads of examples like his.
I think this is fair too. Young players are exciting, and there are times when their development is best served being thrown in at the deep end (usually facilitated by their precocious physical qualities). Often times though they will have limitations to their game that the coaching staff will have identified, and their best course of action will be to get more minutes at a weaker standard of club where they can develop their individual game and get experience during a critical growth period.
He might never make it at United or any big team but there's still a player there.
I feel a lot of our fans have been spoilt by amazing youngsters at the age of 18.
Some players take some years to grow into the trade and might not be a major player until they are in their mid 20's.
That's not to say he won't make it at all, just that we shouldn't write off players the instant they hit 21 if they aren't scoring 20 a season or being a bedrock in defence in general.
For me, if there's clear talent, there's no issue with loaning them out until they are 23/24 (and then selling if need be).
Even at 23, there's probably a decade of action there.
I do feel after about that age it is time to cut your losses and move on. They might become world beaters elsewhere but you can't finance a player's career on what if after a certain point
I feel a lot of our fans have been spoilt by amazing youngsters at the age of 18.
Some players take some years to grow into the trade and might not be a major player until they are in their mid 20's.
That's not to say he won't make it at all, just that we shouldn't write off players the instant they hit 21 if they aren't scoring 20 a season or being a bedrock in defence in general.
For me, if there's clear talent, there's no issue with loaning them out until they are 23/24 (and then selling if need be).
Even at 23, there's probably a decade of action there.
I do feel after about that age it is time to cut your losses and move on. They might become world beaters elsewhere but you can't finance a player's career on what if after a certain point
How does a United fan think Scholes and Giggs went on loan? Especially the latter. When did Giggs squeeze his loan move in?
Only Beckham had a loan and other than Giggs the rest of the Class of 92 were older than Amad when they broke through. Absolute revisionism to suit your agenda.
Kin ell, Giggsy was scoring in the Manchester derby at 17, was he on loan at 15?
I remember Giggs and Scholes' legendary loan spells like they were yesterday. So many nailed on predictions with Scholes as well, we all had him charted going from striker all the way to borderline starting mid until Keane went down in 97 and him launching himself in that position. So, so many signposts during his development that was going to happen.
Any chance we could upgrade his top end pace a little?.
No one knows the future, it is all about development and the important point is that he is playing.
As for the price tag, every club signs some young players in the hope that they can develop into something and save them a lot of money. 20m is not too much. There is no guarantee to it working, but if it works then it saves a lot of money. If we do end up paying 40m, then clearly it worked well for us.
The reason we are struggling is not because we spend a little on the likes of Amad or Pellistri, it is because our big signings like Pogba, Maguire, Sancho etc. have been poor. Rather spend 10-20m on signings like these, than stupidly keep spunking 80-90m on players on huge wages who lose all value as they fail.
As for the price tag, every club signs some young players in the hope that they can develop into something and save them a lot of money. 20m is not too much. There is no guarantee to it working, but if it works then it saves a lot of money. If we do end up paying 40m, then clearly it worked well for us.
The reason we are struggling is not because we spend a little on the likes of Amad or Pellistri, it is because our big signings like Pogba, Maguire, Sancho etc. have been poor. Rather spend 10-20m on signings like these, than stupidly keep spunking 80-90m on players on huge wages who lose all value as they fail.
I think you're right to an extent. However, its also the fact we get the £10-20m signings wrong too.
Why did we turn down Caicedo at £5m and Enzo Fernandez at £15m, yet we found money for Amad and Pellisti?
We not only mess up the big transfers, we mess up pretty much all transfers. Prior to this summer, we've tended to buy in areas we don't need. While neglecting areas where we badly need to do something.
We were linked to Julian Alvarez, would've been a similar fee. Didn't go for him. He ended up at City. Now everyone and their dog is crying for a striker. Its just hard to figure out what the hell goes on inside the club. This summer was the first time, in a while, where you could see exactly what we were trying to address. Mostly its a dog's dinner and signing Amad falls into that category.
I hope the kid goes on to be an absolutely unbelievable inside right, proper competition for Antony. However, at this point, I don't believe he will. He couldn't get in the team when Greenwood had to get ejected from the squad, he couldn't really get a go at Rangers. Okay, he's doing alright at Sunderland. However, being a Sunderland level player is not the return you'd want for what we paid. Not yet anyway and not when we had so many other areas of the squad to fix.
This is so right...I see this in so many of the threads and frankly in many topics outside of sports. People get upset with a player, criticize them, then actively start to root for them to fail in order to seem "right" about them. Like, why even watch sports if this is your attitude? I saw this a ton with Pogba...he'd play well and then people would actually still be negative on him and criticize the fact that he didn't ALWAYS play well...just enjoy the freakin match FFS and hope he can play well next time. Im glad hes not with us anymore...I thought he was too inconsistent. But I loved watching the games he played well in.
Amad is still very young, and clearly has a ton of potential. He's raw but seemingly trying hard to improve. All I care about is he works hard and gets better to, hopefully, help the team down the road. IF he doesn't I'm sure we'll have other options.
The "hes washed" or "we made a huge mistake" comments are beyond my comprehension. We are a massive club, we take chances on some young players to hope they hit. We were never counting on him to play a key role for us this year...so even if he never makes the squad it was not a mistake to sign him. This is development. If he ends up sucking should we not have signed him...of course. But thats like saying why didn't everyone buy Starbucks stock at IPO (If you bought $10K of Starbucks stock at IPO you'd now have almost $4M).
You get some and you miss on some. No one hits on every one and your lucky if you hit on 5%. So weird the hate here with the guy so young...
But thats hindsight logic. If you knew Pellisti and Amad would be at this level at this point (or more importantly even worse in the future)...then yes maybe you should have allocated those funds to people you KNOW are better now that were cheaper. But using this logic you can reliably criticize any decisions that involve risk...which thereby sort of negates the effectiveness of the criticism.
Really it boils down to hit rate. If the best developing clubs hit on 5% of youth signings on average and we hit on 10%...criticizing 2 out of 50 signings is a pretty dumb argument IMHO. Thats called a straw man argument (used often in politics). You can basically anecdotally criticize anything with that logic no matter how successful it actually is.
If we hit on 1% and the average is 5%...then yeah...Im right there with the criticism...
You really shouldn’t expect speed with Diallop.
The biggest issue seems to be around the cultural reset. We have heard the comments from ETH and Bruno around Garnacho having a bit of a poor attitude and work ethic during the summer before the light switched on for him recently and he stepped up, similar coments were made about Amad when he was at Rangers. I don't think anyone can look at Amad and say he lacks the skills to be a top PL player but does he have the mental attributes to make the most of his talent. The feedback from this loan so far says that just like Garnacho he is seeing the light and starting to really apply himself and I am confident that if that is the case he will be a regular member of our squad for next season.
Not really, some work out, some don't.
You have just cherry picked some that have worked out somewhere else, not the ones that have failed. Even if we bought them, does not mean they would have the same development here.
Dalot was a similar signing , and that is working out well currently. Just because it does not work immediately, does not mean it will fail certainly.
Again, if anyone wants to talk about performances, then that is fine. But making predictions about the future based on no real basis is pointless.
I wouldn’t know anything about the support at the ground for a player as i live halfway around the world and have never attended a match. What i meant was to create an atmosphere online by our fans which gets to the young players one way or another.
You’ll get some of these fans in the Garnacho thread soon too.
Just give them a fair crack at developing before throwing them under the bus.
Just give them a fair crack at developing before throwing them under the bus.
We bought Garnacho for 400k, Diallo came for £20 million up front. Obviously our expectations of Diallo are going to be high. I've been disappointed up to now.