Amrabat - Man United Player FINALLY - #4 confirmed

[NZT-One]

If there were no scouting reports (what I find hard to believe) then he had a choice to either give Sancho a run (with Pellistri, Amad, and feckin Elanga as backup) or push for what he knew he was going to get from Antony. I think it's shocking that he was so mistaken about Antony football abilities. We knew spending will be constrained because of how much money we spent for that summer.

I agree, to a degree it is suprising that he potentially overestimated Antonys capabilities. That said, there are factors that go into it. The level of organisation in the squad was significantly higher at Ajax. Also their league is not comparable.

Just to be clear: I am completely with you, we shouldn’t have tried to get him for the money that was alleged even when the rumours initially emerged. The only thing we are disagreeing here is that I don’t consider ETH to be the main protagonist in terms of „who is at fault“.

btw: Elanga was probably already talking about moving away from the club, Pellistri was an unknown with experiences in Uruguay league and a loan in Spain. Sancho wasn’t the type of wing player that typically plays in dutch teams (holding the width) and didn’t ETH use him in that preseason as kind of a 10ish player as well?

Again - not one player who really ticks the boxes and to me, there is just as much likelyhood, that United higher ups wanted to present a transfer success after the very disappointing end of the FDJ tale… Overall a complete shitshow and there is no way, ETH comes out of that untainted.

Obviously he could've asked for some other RW options and I'm pretty sure Olise for example would've been on a shortlist. Do you think we wouldn't have gotten him for somewhere between 50-100m we paid for Antony?

That is a good point. I agree, for that money we could have brought in a higher profile player. But Crystal palace surely would have wanted at least 60 to 70 for Olise and genuine question - would have been in favor of such a transfer? I wouldn’t have been. Not because Olise is a bad player but because the number is too high. I also think, this late in the window, even for 50 to 100 million the number of players that would have helped us wasn’t as big anymore.

That isn't an excuse though. You don't get to replace every player as a coach coming to a new team because "you don't know them" or "you don't know if they are good enough".

I agree again - but the opposite is also not really realistic, you don’t have to evaluate every existing player before you make decisions on bringing in another player. As laid out above, it isn’t like the players you listed were close to being safe bets. Not at all. A transfer made sense, even going for Antony made sense - the pain comes in at the price. But that late in the window, crazy stuff is needed. Again, obviously shit show, everybody tainted. Not just ETH.

What I think happened is someone at the club vetoed Antony earlier in the summer, but then we got into panic mode and ETH was given a free hand to use another 150m. That doesn't make ETH look any better. The fact he's been watching Antony play football for 2 years and then thought he's definitely better than whatever we already have at the club (after spending a few weeks with the team in rather successful pre-season) AND was willing to spend so much of his budget on him is truly shocking.

The veto is a possibility. One of many. Might as well be a situation of „lets focus on FDJ first and see what the budget looks like after“. Thats my point. Many plausible scenarios can be thought of, but we don’t know. And yes, Panic Mode certainly was activated. But not necessarily on ETHs side.

It's possible he was told we have all the money in the world. Possible, but unlikely. Even more unlikely would be he actually believed it.

Yes, I’ll give you that. Only thing I can come up with is that he maybe didn’t care. I mean, who knows, a few other decisions indicate that he was pretty close to hitting the „survival mode“ button from the start on. Maybe he didn’t really think too much about „next summer“, all he wanted was to have an as good as possible 1st season. This is what we have been crying about for so long, haven’t we: it is understandable that managers or 1st team coaches will be shortsighted. It is the club who has to make sure that this sort of thinking is balanced out with long term thinking. Its borderline comical that after 10 years we are still sitting here hoping that the club will get it right eventually.

I don't understand this idea that Hojlund fitted the profile. What profile? Didn't we want Kane who is a completely different type of striker? I have to admit I don't see it with Hojlund, even if he's a good finisher, this isn't enough to make it on the top level, and I really don't see anything else in his game. I could name a few weaknesses but don't want to be too negative. I just don't understand why he was (apparently) the only young striker we went after this summer.

Before you ask me if I know any alternatives - I don't, but I was also not aware of Hojlund existence until we got heavily interested in him.

Not an expert on Hojlund myself but his strength are his physicality, his instinct and his ability to generate a yard to finish. He is also very active and does a great job of keeping defenders occupied. All of this has been confirmed here, the only issue to this day is his lack of killer instinct. BUT in a team were he really is feeding from scraps. But sure, for this amount of money it makes sense to expect more from… But it is what it is, there aren’t many high calibre strikers out there these days. Look at Isaak, did he fulfill the 70 million pricetag yet? Probably also no, but it is what it is, the prices are nuts.

And about Kane: I am more than glad that we didn’t bring him in for the amount that would have been necessary. But I agree with you, that if Kane was the type of striker ETH wanted, than it is weird that we went for Hojlund.

Personal note though, for some reason the 72 million for Hojlund aren’t a problem for me at all. To be honest, in this regard I complain more about the 8 million loan fee for Amrabat, the 60 million for Onana, the 50 million for Martinez. Or the absurd fee for Sancho plus the crazy wages for Martial and Rashford, Casemiro and Varane. The club isn’t doing a good job spending the money but I think, investing in a promising young striker makes sense

 

[Borys]

I agree, to a degree it is suprising that he potentially overestimated Antonys capabilities. That said, there are factors that go into it. The level of organisation in the squad was significantly higher at Ajax. Also their league is not comparable.

Just to be clear: I am completely with you, we shouldn’t have tried to get him for the money that was alleged even when the rumours initially emerged. The only thing we are disagreeing here is that I don’t consider ETH to be the main protagonist in terms of „who is at fault“.

btw: Elanga was probably already talking about moving away from the club, Pellistri was an unknown with experiences in Uruguay league and a loan in Spain. Sancho wasn’t the type of wing player that typically plays in dutch teams (holding the width) and didn’t ETH use him in that preseason as kind of a 10ish player as well?

Again - not one player who really ticks the boxes and to me, there is just as much likelyhood, that United higher ups wanted to present a transfer success after the very disappointing end of the FDJ tale… Overall a complete shitshow and there is no way, ETH comes out of that untainted.

I think you're mixing up this and last summer but nevermind. On the bolded bits - all of those are excuses for Ten Hag why he chased Antony. Don't get me wrong, those excuses might be valid - but it doesn't take the blame away from Ten Hag for this really.

Elanga was still here for 1 season so it was just Ten Hag choice not to play him. 10 G+A so far seems quite ok by the way.
Sancho "qualities" are not subject of a debate, although there are obviously other issues with him. So I will agree he doesn't "tick all the boxes", but the problem with Antony is that he doesn't tick ANY boxes.

I can accept other scenarios (than ETH pushing for Antony) but all of them combined have like 1% probability for me. It's like not blaming Moyes for bringing in Fellaini. But Fellaini cost us like 30m, while Antony 90. It boggles my mind how you can have so many players for 90m and you go for Antony.

That is a good point. I agree, for that money we could have brought in a higher profile player. But Crystal palace surely would have wanted at least 60 to 70 for Olise and genuine question - would have been in favor of such a transfer? I wouldn’t have been. Not because Olise is a bad player but because the number is too high. I also think, this late in the window, even for 50 to 100 million the number of players that would have helped us wasn’t as big anymore.

I don't know, I just argued the point "there were no alternatives". There were plenty alternatives for 90m EUR. We could've even try what we have first instead going big for Antony.

I agree again - but the opposite is also not really realistic, you don’t have to evaluate every existing player before you make decisions on bringing in another player. As laid out above, it isn’t like the players you listed were close to being safe bets. Not at all. A transfer made sense, even going for Antony made sense - the pain comes in at the price. But that late in the window, crazy stuff is needed. Again, obviously shit show, everybody tainted. Not just ETH.

The veto is a possibility. One of many. Might as well be a situation of „lets focus on FDJ first and see what the budget looks like after“. Thats my point. Many plausible scenarios can be thought of, but we don’t know. And yes, Panic Mode certainly was activated. But not necessarily on ETHs side.

The manager's role is to make the available players better and in general make use of what he's got. If you say that it "made sense" to go for a new RB then it's fine (many people thought the same), but it's also OK to come here and first assess what we have.
It all breaks down to what ETH thought he'll get from Antony. It turns out, not much.

The veto is a possibility. One of many. Might as well be a situation of „lets focus on FDJ first and see what the budget looks like after“. Thats my point. Many plausible scenarios can be thought of, but we don’t know. And yes, Panic Mode certainly was activated. But not necessarily on ETHs side.


Yes, I’ll give you that. Only thing I can come up with is that he maybe didn’t care. I mean, who knows, a few other decisions indicate that he was pretty close to hitting the „survival mode“ button from the start on. Maybe he didn’t really think too much about „next summer“, all he wanted was to have an as good as possible 1st season. This is what we have been crying about for so long, haven’t we: it is understandable that managers or 1st team coaches will be shortsighted. It is the club who has to make sure that this sort of thinking is balanced out with long term thinking. Its borderline comical that after 10 years we are still sitting here hoping that the club will get it right eventually.

I agree, to a degree it is suprising that he potentially overestimated Antonys capabilities. That said, there are factors that go into it. The level of organisation in the squad was significantly higher at Ajax. Also their league is not comparable.

Just to be clear: I am completely with you, we shouldn’t have tried to get him for the money that was alleged even when the rumours initially emerged. The only thing we are disagreeing here is that I don’t consider ETH to be the main protagonist in terms of „who is at fault“.

btw: Elanga was probably already talking about moving away from the club, Pellistri was an unknown with experiences in Uruguay league and a loan in Spain. Sancho wasn’t the type of wing player that typically plays in dutch teams (holding the width) and didn’t ETH use him in that preseason as kind of a 10ish player as well?

Again - not one player who really ticks the boxes and to me, there is just as much likelyhood, that United higher ups wanted to present a transfer success after the very disappointing end of the FDJ tale… Overall a complete shitshow and there is no way, ETH comes out of that untainted.


That is a good point. I agree, for that money we could have brought in a higher profile player. But Crystal palace surely would have wanted at least 60 to 70 for Olise and genuine question - would have been in favor of such a transfer? I wouldn’t have been. Not because Olise is a bad player but because the number is too high. I also think, this late in the window, even for 50 to 100 million the number of players that would have helped us wasn’t as big anymore.


I agree again - but the opposite is also not really realistic, you don’t have to evaluate every existing player before you make decisions on bringing in another player. As laid out above, it isn’t like the players you listed were close to being safe bets. Not at all. A transfer made sense, even going for Antony made sense - the pain comes in at the price. But that late in the window, crazy stuff is needed. Again, obviously shit show, everybody tainted. Not just ETH.


The veto is a possibility. One of many. Might as well be a situation of „lets focus on FDJ first and see what the budget looks like after“. Thats my point. Many plausible scenarios can be thought of, but we don’t know. And yes, Panic Mode certainly was activated. But not necessarily on ETHs side.


Yes, I’ll give you that. Only thing I can come up with is that he maybe didn’t care. I mean, who knows, a few other decisions indicate that he was pretty close to hitting the „survival mode“ button from the start on. Maybe he didn’t really think too much about „next summer“, all he wanted was to have an as good as possible 1st season. This is what we have been crying about for so long, haven’t we: it is understandable that managers or 1st team coaches will be shortsighted. It is the club who has to make sure that this sort of thinking is balanced out with long term thinking. Its borderline comical that after 10 years we are still sitting here hoping that the club will get it right eventually.

He wanted a good first season and thought that Antony is the asnwer? That is exactly the problem. He overrated Antony as a player if he thought he'll bring him "success" over what he already has at the club. Massive underestimation of the league has been his biggest culprit imo.

Not an expert on Hojlund myself but his strength are his physicality, his instinct and his ability to generate a yard to finish. He is also very active and does a great job of keeping defenders occupied. All of this has been confirmed here, the only issue to this day is his lack of killer instinct. BUT in a team were he really is feeding from scraps. But sure, for this amount of money it makes sense to expect more from… But it is what it is, there aren’t many high calibre strikers out there these days. Look at Isaak, did he fulfill the 70 million pricetag yet? Probably also no, but it is what it is, the prices are nuts.

And about Kane: I am more than glad that we didn’t bring him in for the amount that would have been necessary. But I agree with you, that if Kane was the type of striker ETH wanted, than it is weird that we went for Hojlund.

Personal note though, for some reason the 72 million for Hojlund aren’t a problem for me at all. To be honest, in this regard I complain more about the 8 million loan fee for Amrabat, the 60 million for Onana, the 50 million for Martinez. Or the absurd fee for Sancho plus the crazy wages for Martial and Rashford, Casemiro and Varane. The club isn’t doing a good job spending the money but I think, investing in a promising young striker makes sense

His physicality seems like his best attribute but it's been hardly effective on this level. He did outpace Copengahen defenders, what was impressive, but he isn't getting into a lot of races like that playing for United. I have not seen "generating a yard to finish" probably mostly due to him not getting on the ball very often, and I don't see anything particularly impressive in his ability to "keep the defenders occupied". Compared to Martial - sure, he runs more, but compared to for example Weghorst, he isn't half as effective at winning the ball back up front.

I don't agree that his issue has been lack of killer instinct. This is not a worry, he seems quite effective at finishing chances, especially considering he's a young lad and just coming to the EPL, finding his feet etc. What worries me is there really isn't anything else to his game. I have seen a lot of young players coming through and they just looked better on the ball than Rasmus, I just don't see anything particularly outstanding in him at the moment.

Isaak is a better player now than Hojlund, maybe this will change in the future but I only said I just don't see many strengths that Hojlund has at the moment, and he was brought to a very bad place in terms of players development so it's just a bit strange transfer to me.

I am also glad we didn't go all-in for Kane, but the point is with that move it'd made sense, because he's a type of striker that can help with ball progression, and good at involving AMs/ wingers into play. With Hojlund, I can't shale this feeling we got him because he's strong and fast. What is weird because every other player ETH got is weak physically or slow. There doesn't seem to be any key to how we select players.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

That's what I'm saying. If you can get it so wrong when identifying signings, especially when he's actually worked with these players, then can he really be that good at assessing other things of a similar nature?

As you imply, the answer is probably no, based on his selections and substitutions.

Yes, ETH is a shocking judge of a player, which IMO undermines his suitability for the job. Amongst many other things. I think he is actually very arrogant and think he knows best. Overrules our scouts, refuse to meet Rangnick etc

It's not that shocking considering his track record of bringing unsuitable players into the club. Par for the course for Ten Hag

Why was none of this been said last season after finishing 3rd, winning a trophy and getting to the final for another?

If the team somehow starts performing well next season then has he got the recruitment wrong? I don't even think it is bad recruitment, its bad coaching and tactics this season, along with a ridiculous amount of injuries creating no consistency for the best 11 from last season to play regularly together. Having the ability to play Shaw, Martinez, Varane, Casemiro consistently together was a massive part of the success of last season. How many games have them 4 played together so far this season?

Also, Rashford scored 30 goals last season. At this point last season he had 13 goals and 6 assists, so far this season he has 3 goals and 5 assists. That is difficult to replace.

My point is not trying to defend ETH, it is simply pointing out that football is fickle, one season the recruitment looks great and is solid because the team performed, and the next season the recruitment is bad?

Martinez, Casemiro, Malacia, Eriksen were all a success last season, Mount has been injured for the most part and barely played, Reguilon was decent when called upon for the most part and has also been injured for a while, Evans has been great considering the expectations of him being 5th choice, but has had to stand in for numerous injured players.

That leaves Hojlund, Antony, Onana and Amrabat. All 4 have been pretty shocking for the most part. To just say his recruitment has been poor is too simplistic, there are many variables that need to be considered.

This season has been an absolute shit show so obviously fans are being more over the top than usual. We have seen this happen too often, with a good season from Mourinho and Ole followed by an absolute disastrous one, which is occurring now with Ten Hag. It seems too much of a coincidence to just blame the manager. The entire set up is all wrong, it allows for a flukey good season, but doesn't allow for consistent good seasons in a row. And many of these players seem to just keep downing tools for managers, to then be given another chance by the next. Rangnick was right and too many of the players before ETH arrived should not be here now.

Does anyone truly believe that continuing to change the manager and signing 'the right players' is going to improve the on field success? We have seen the same thing for the last 10 years with this approach.

 

[frostbite]

Also, Rashford scored 30 goals last season. At this point last season he had 13 goals and 6 assists, so far this season he has 3 goals and 5 assists. That is difficult to replace.

My point is not trying to defend ETH, it is simply pointing out that football is fickle, one season the recruitment looks great and is solid because the team performed, and the next season the recruitment is bad?

Martinez, Casemiro, Malacia, Eriksen were all a success last season, Mount has been injured for the most part and barely played, Reguilon was decent when called upon for the most part and has also been injured for a while, Evans has been great considering the expectations of him being 5th choice, but has had to stand in for numerous injured players.

But that's the problem. ETH spent 400 million, and the real difference is ... Rashford.

After 18 months of ETH, our only hope is again that Rashford will hit a purple patch and save us.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Where is this guy, is he still alive?

 

[The Corinthian]

Where is this guy, is he still alive?

Afcon

 

[Sassy Colin]

Afcon

Figures

 

[RedKing91]

Great workrate but way too slow for the EPL.