simplyared
Full Member
Too slow, so easy to get past and a poser. Enough said!
Palace were on a evening stroll, gave Utd a huge amount of space to play in and treated it like a warm up for the more important league game against Utd at the weekend. Utd played well but it was not a game to read much into.It’s such a shame that he’s turned out to be subpar, he was brilliant in our only good performance this season (the league cup win against Crystal Palace)
I agree. I just felt Amrabat's performances were better when he played as an inverted full back, but going forward, I do hope we go back to a 4231.I still dont think you get the best out of our squad this way though. Rashford and Garnacho are too wide with minimal overlaps. They just become ineffective. It also congests the space where Bruno operates best. I'd still like to see us play an attacking 4231, which in possession looks something like:
LFW --- 9 --- RFWI think we have loads of decent options for those CM roles (Amrabat, Casemiro, Eriksen, Mainoo) who can shunt across and cover wide area on breaks, leaving their partner to hold the centre ground
LB ------ 10 ------- RB
CM -------- CM
CB --- CB
GK
Tell that to the best Liverpool teams of the last 6 years or so.
Just because both are capable in the "special" role, be that inverting or as a winger, doesn't mean they do it at the same time. City didn't have a double pivot made of Fullbacks and Liverpools TAA was compared to Beckham for his deep crossing while Robertson was the one who usually was going for it. I agree overall though, while Antony seems to be a winger who stays out wide and who knows, maybe he will start creating again and not just try to shoot but Rashford these days isn't a wide player anymore. I tend to say he would work best with a more traditional Fullback. Best case scenario probably one who is good in defense because Rashford isn't known for his support. So I think, Shaw is kind of fine in this regard, he is a traditional fullback but he should have the skillset to invert here and there. Dalot is similar in terms of skillset. Even though I consider him as worse than Shaw in the traditional qualities. AWB on the other side is ideal to become part of the back three so either one of the CB can push up or the LB can invert.Or the city teams before Pep decided to go with two inverted wingbacks.
I think Olise was at CP already and he wouldn't have been cheap either. The moment to buy him was during Oles reign, iirc he produced very good numbers in the lower league and it was pretty likely that would have been useful.ETH is definitly to blame for that.
Were there no alternatives? If he wanted a young promising winger, we could've gone for Olise (he was 19 back then).
Players ETH didn't knew and/or were rather unknowns in terms of their ability to keep afloat in the league.We also had Sancho, Pellistri and Amad on our books.
Of course there is another explanation. It is just as likely that ETH suggested him and in the absence of alternatives was obviously fine with bringing him in. The whole financial aspect isn't in his court, isn't it? Maybe he asked, is that financially possible and the other guys told him yes. I am not going to sit here and act as if the whole thing wasn't a huge feckup. Of course it was - we ended up paying a price that even Ajax thought nobody would be dumb enough to pay because their squad planning for the season was already done. And we did this knowing that we bought Sancho a year ago for exactly the same position. Of course that is borderline idiotic. But to say this is solely on ETH seems a bit wild to me. There is no indication that this would be the case, it would even be weird if there be one - because that should be really confidential and internal.The ONLY explanation for this transfer is that ETH wanted him really, really badly.
We needed a striker badly and apparently, Hojlund fitted the search profile. Funnily enough, I don't consider that outlay as so dramatic... He is a striker with potential bought from a pretty decent side. The issue with this transfer was more that we didn't manage to bring a striker like Taremi or whatever, an experienced guy who would take away a bit of pressure from such a young guy like Hojlund.For other "failed" transfers, the blame is even between ETH and the rest of the club officials I guess. I still don't get why we only chased Hojlund but that's another story.
So you read the word "control" and thats all you need to get a full understanding of the roles and responsibilities of Manchester United transfer business? I am sorry mate, what you are talking about is an opinion. A plausible one, not going to argue that that would be out of this world but it for sure isn't the only possible explanation for those events.Nope, it is not just my opinion. I have read enough to know that this is how it worked for ETH in Man Utd. Antony, De Jong, Onana, etc. It is the same story over and over. De Jong did not want to come and ETH insisted for months. Multiple stories about the fact that he wouldn't agree to become Man Utd manager if he didn't have control over transfers. The fact that he brought in mostly players that he knew before or had the same agent as him, and so on. ETH wanted the power. And he misused the power because he is not very capable.
https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_...g-says-taken-man-united-job-control-transfers
Erik ten Hag says he wouldn't have taken Man United job without 'control' over transfers
If there were no scouting reports (what I find hard to believe) then he had a choice to either give Sancho a run (with Pellistri, Amad, and feckin Elanga as backup) or push for what he knew he was going to get from Antony. I think it's shocking that he was so mistaken about Antony football abilities. We knew spending will be constrained because of how much money we spent for that summer.I think Olise was at CP already and he wouldn't have been cheap either. The moment to buy him was during Oles reign, iirc he produced very good numbers in the lower league and it was pretty likely that would have been useful.
I don't know if there were alternatives.
But what if ETH thought, there were no scouting reports available. No shortlist for the type of player he wanted. I feel uncomfortable to stand here and defend Antony but he was a Brazilian national team member by then and he was part of a pretty decent Ajax side in another (admitably bad) league. Would you have expected ETH to present alternatives or the club to do that? Iirc the whole matter with Antony became more substantial pretty late in the window. Before there were a few rumours here and there but not too much.
That isn't an excuse though. You don't get to replace every player as a coach coming to a new team because "you don't know them" or "you don't know if they are good enough".Players ETH didn't knew and/or were rather unknowns in terms of their ability to keep afloat in the league.
What I think happened is someone at the club vetoed Antony earlier in the summer, but then we got into panic mode and ETH was given a free hand to use another 150m. That doesn't make ETH look any better. The fact he's been watching Antony play football for 2 years and then thought he's definitely better than whatever we already have at the club (after spending a few weeks with the team in rather successful pre-season) AND was willing to spend so much of his budget on him is truly shocking.Of course there is another explanation. It is just as likely that ETH suggested him and in the absence of alternatives was obviously fine with bringing him in. The whole financial aspect isn't in his court, isn't it? Maybe he asked, is that financially possible and the other guys told him yes. I am not going to sit here and act as if the whole thing wasn't a huge feckup. Of course it was - we ended up paying a price that even Ajax thought nobody would be dumb enough to pay because their squad planning for the season was already done. And we did this knowing that we bought Sancho a year ago for exactly the same position. Of course that is borderline idiotic. But to say this is solely on ETH seems a bit wild to me. There is no indication that this would be the case, it would even be weird if there be one - because that should be really confidential and internal.
I don't understand this idea that Hojlund fitted the profile. What profile? Didn't we want Kane who is a completely different type of striker? I have to admit I don't see it with Hojlund, even if he's a good finisher, this isn't enough to make it on the top level, and I really don't see anything else in his game. I could name a few weaknesses but don't want to be too negative. I just don't understand why he was (apparently) the only young striker we went after this summer.We needed a striker badly and apparently, Hojlund fitted the search profile. Funnily enough, I don't consider that outlay as so dramatic... He is a striker with potential bought from a pretty decent side. The issue with this transfer was more that we didn't manage to bring a striker like Taremi or whatever, an experienced guy who would take away a bit of pressure from such a young guy like Hojlund.
Do you know how many people work like crazy to get in a position of control? To be able to make decisions on how to spend half a billion is real power, it is the dream for many ambitious people. And you cannot find this in many positions (in general, I am not talking about football here).So you read the word "control" and thats all you need to get a full understanding of the roles and responsibilities of Manchester United transfer business? I am sorry mate, what you are talking about is an opinion. A plausible one, not going to argue that that would be out of this world but it for sure isn't the only possible explanation for those events.
Don't let it happen that the manager is now getting all the blame that the higher ups deserve. More than enough to blame ETH for without things that may sound plausible but are nothing more than plausible assumptions at the end of the day.
I really don't think that Hannibal has it to make it at United or elsewhere in the Premier League.I’d rather see us put Hannibal or Gore in this season for his minutes but if it means McT at DM ever again this season then may as well just keep him. He’s a decent player but he doesn’t move the needle enough for us.
A number of people raised this concern in his thread before we got him. Turns out again we're getting exactly the player we paid for. Another player that excels in Italy/Germany or international level but just watching him play makes you think he ain't getting that much time and space in the EPL.The hype he got before he joined was weird. He was clearly far too slow and just a standard midfield player in a mid table team. The one run against Mbappe (a game he got bullied in by Mbappe) apparently made him world class
What's shocking is that ETH thought he was good enough or had the speed to cope even after managing a full season in the PL.Too slow, so easy to get past and a poser. Enough said!
Is he amazing at "identifying the best starting 11" ?If his identification of signings is so bad, especially when he has actually worked with these guys and knows them better than any scout, what does that tell you about ETH?
And how do we reasonably assume he's just crap at identifying signings, but is amazing at identifying the best starting 11, the qualities of opposition players, the tactics of opposition etc? I'm going to go out on a limb and say you can't be so bad at identifying signings, especially when you've managed these players, but can really be good enough at the other things. They go hand in hand.
That's what I'm saying. If you can get it so wrong when identifying signings, especially when he's actually worked with these players, then can he really be that good at assessing other things of a similar nature?Is he amazing at "identifying the best starting 11" ?
Yes, ETH is a shocking judge of a player, which IMO undermines his suitability for the job. Amongst many other things. I think he is actually very arrogant and think he knows best. Overrules our scouts, refuse to meet Rangnick etcWhat's shocking is that ETH thought he was good enough or had the speed to cope even after managing a full season in the PL.
It's not that shocking considering his track record of bringing unsuitable players into the club. Par for the course for Ten HagWhat's shocking is that ETH thought he was good enough or had the speed to cope even after managing a full season in the PL.
It is reminiscent of Moyes getting rid of SAF’s back room staff in favour of Steve Round, in that ETH assumed what worked for him at a smaller club will scale up to a club of United’s size and expectation. You want an arrogant manager but they also need to deliver or they look inept.Yes, ETH is a shocking judge of a player, which IMO undermines his suitability for the job. Amongst many other things. I think he is actually very arrogant and think he knows best. Overrules our scouts, refuse to meet Rangnick etc
I think ETH knew. Hence him being a last minute loan signing who ETH rarely picks.What's shocking is that ETH thought he was good enough or had the speed to cope even after managing a full season in the PL.
I also suggested that - I am not sure if he was really wanted by the club like so many people thought. I think he was another player that someone in the club had doubts about. But in the end it still makes no sense, I don't understand what was the plan for midfield for season 2023/24.I think ETH knew. Hence him being a last minute loan signing who ETH rarely picks.
Just a case of needs must.
Almost like the gaffer hasn’t a scoobert on how to set up a midfieldThe point about Sabitzer, Fred and Donny is bang on.... Last year we were stacked with 8's, and short of 6's... but he played a double pivot all season.
This season we are stacked with 6's and short of 8's, and he is playing a single pivot.
Someone please make this make sense?!?!
Letting Garner go was just silly to me. He's a natural DM and we needed one. To then loan in Amrabat.I also suggested that - I am not sure if he was really wanted by the club like so many people thought. I think he was another player that someone in the club had doubts about. But in the end it still makes no sense, I don't understand what was the plan for midfield for season 2023/24.
+ I'm pretty sure I read we only brought him in because Mainoo was injured. The fact he is on loan means its not really a problem, but had he turned out good then we had an agreed price. I don't see the problem with this one personally.I think ETH knew. Hence him being a last minute loan signing who ETH rarely picks.
Just a case of needs must.
Yeah Amrabat himself isn't a significant problem. It's more about how did we end up needing him in the first place.+ I'm pretty sure I read we only brought him in because Mainoo was injured. The fact he is on loan means its not really a problem, but had he turned out good then we had an agreed price. I don't see the problem with this one personally.
If anything it makes the Mount signing even stranger....but that's another topic.Yeah Amrabat himself isn't a significant problem. It's more about how did we end up needing him in the first place.
If an 18 year old getting an injury causes a sub standard last min loan something isn't right.
But Amrabat is also a problem, as we were after him all summer. Another player from Dutch league who actually played for ETH at Utrecht. So ETH knew him well and was v keen to sign him. The guy is cluelessIf anything it makes the Mount signing even stranger....but that's another topic.
The season is over. If ETH wants to garner some goodwill, have the balls to develop the academy kids now. They are young and melleable at least.I'd rather we give Amrabat's game time to Gore. He is clearly not good enough and why waste time and salary money?
In parallel, ETH probably has a super tight group of friends, and doesn't feel he needs anymore since those he met in primary school! Married the first woman he slept with!!But Amrabat is also a problem, as we were after him all summer. Another player from Dutch league who actually played for ETH at Utrecht. So ETH knew him well and was v keen to sign him. The guy is clueless
That is my thinking also. What is the point of loan in players like Weghorst, Amrabat and Reguilon exactly? Are we chasing trophies or something? I'd rather we give those minutes to our own kids, even if they end up not good enough long term.The season is over. If ETH wants to garner some goodwill, have the balls to develop the academy kids now. They are young and melleable at least.
Then I may at least want to see how he will do with a set of ten hag's fledglings next season. Otherwise he doesn't deserve to stay.
It would be politically expedient of ETH too. Sell the concept of hope in the future to the fans.That is my thinking also. What is the point of loan in players like Weghorst, Amrabat and Reguilon exactly? Are we chasing trophies or something? I'd rather we give those minutes to our own kids, even if they end up not good enough long term.
No, he came in without any pre-season, got injured, and then came back into an utterly disfunctional team riddled with further injuries. I won't judge him until he gets a run of games with our proper midfield.Is the jury in? Have we given up on Amrabat?
He is doing that to be fair. Mainoo is starting over Amrabat already.The season is over. If ETH wants to garner some goodwill, have the balls to develop the academy kids now. They are young and melleable at least.
Then I may at least want to see how he will do with a set of ten hag's fledglings next season. Otherwise he doesn't deserve to stay.
True, but most people who had seen him said he was too slow and weak for the PL. Noone else was in for him. He has an awful lot to do to show he is up to it. He's also been here what 5 months now? How long to get fit?No, he came in without any pre-season, got injured, and then came back into an utterly disfunctional team riddled with further injuries. I won't judge him until he gets a run of games with our proper midfield.
Not saying he will be a success, but I wouldn't discard him as not being United quality yet. It's been an infuriatingly difficult season for everyone with the amount of injuries we've had.
One swallow doesnt make a summer. I want that to be the theme for the rest of the season.He is doing that to be fair. Mainoo is starting over Amrabat already.
Amad got 30 mins in pretty much the first game he was available for. He's dropped Rashford for Garnacho.
You had me worried for a secThat's what I'm saying. If you can get it so wrong when identifying signings, especially when he's actually worked with these players, then can he really be that good at assessing other things of a similar nature?
As you imply, the answer is probably no, based on his selections and substitutions.
There's at least three swallows. 19 year old left wing. 18 year old CM. 20 year old CF. Amad straight in as soon as he's fit.One swallow doesnt make a summer. I want that to be the theme for the rest of the season.
Not really. The defensive numbers for the midfielders for Fiorentina last year were pretty underwhelming overall. iirc there was one, who was a little less below average than anybody else but his minutes suggested, he either was injured a lot or just a sub. Based on numbers, it looked like most of the ball winning was done in defense, midfield didn't contribute much on that.It seems like he played different role with Fiorentina and NT. He's a Neves type, instead of sole DM; a defensive playmaker. He usually was paired with a pure destroyer, wasn't he?
I would agree with you. But it still doesn’t bring anything substantial into the picture about ETH. You and me and nobody knows what he meant when he used the term control. And given the fact that we are talking about an organisation with lots of roles and responsibilities, the term control itself is too broad.Do you know how many people work like crazy to get in a position of control? To be able to make decisions on how to spend half a billion is real power, it is the dream for many ambitious people. And you cannot find this in many positions (in general, I am not talking about football here).
It could also be that he meant that he wanted to be involved in the recruitment process to not be faced with situations where he gets a player and has to work with him even though he has no use for it. Again, not saying that my explanation has more probability than yours but we have to realize, that both of us aren’t really standing on solid ground at all. That is why I feel the level of condemnation is little too big.ETH did not have that kind of power at Ajax because Overmars made all the important decisions. ETH was ambitious, he wanted control over the big money, he said it himself in the interview that without this control he wouldn't have joined Man Utd. I blame the higher ups for giving him so much power and for not sacking him already.