Andy Mitten: The players aren't responding to the manager

Grande

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I think the issue is the tactics themselves rather than the players implementing them. This is going to be a long response looking at Ten Hag’s repeated tactical issues and how they are failing these players.

1. Build-
I keep saying this in other posts, but the 3-1-6 build-up defies logic. Other top clubs in the division (City, Arsenal, Spurs) build with a 3-2 shape, which creates the best angles to progress the ball through the middle.
During pre-season, we tried out a 3-2 build-up but with Lisandro pushing up into the 2. It has been abandoned since the season started.

By contrast, ourselves and Chelsea build with a 3-1. This makes it easy to close off the passing lanes to the single pivot or press them upon ball reception which makes us susceptible to turnovers in dangerous positions. This the forces to go wide, whereas ball progression is restricted to one side given the proximity to the touchline. Therefore, if the ball doesn’t go down the line (increased risk of losing possession), it alternatively goes inside, where the pivot is pressed in a congested zone. This is why we are seeing a lot more long-balls lately, which is ugly to watch and not the progressive posession football we expected from Ten Hag’s time at Ajax.

There needs to be a discussion about this 3-1 build-up and the issues it is causing. The goal conceded against Brentford stemmed from the 3-1 build-up. While Casshould have been better in preventing the turnover in a dangerous position, he got the ball while pressed from three different sides and his only option was a vertical pass. Similarly, while Onana’s pass was blamed for the penalty Casemiro conceded against Galatasaray, it was easy for Mertens to cut off the pass to United’s single pivot.

2. Pressing
A second issue is our press. We go man-to-man in the middle, which makes it easy for midfielders to vacate spaces and the opponent by-passes the press with ease. The man-to-man press was a key reason behind the 7-0 at Anfield. The first Gakpo goal is a great example of this. The winger (Antony) pushed up on the centre-back who split wide (Van Dijk). Dalot backed up the press by pushing up on Robertson. Then it was easy for Liverpool to find Gakpo in acres of space with Fred forced to cover lots of ground.

3. Two 10s experime
A third issue was the two 10s experiment. In theory, it’s a good idea because you would have an overload on the opposition’s defence. Bruno can also cross dangerously from the right half-space a la De Bruyne. But we do not keep the ball well enough to be able to work the ball from side-to-side and sustain the pressure. On transitions, it also leaves Casimero exposed. In the Wolves game we had Matheus Cunha looking like prime R9!

It is also telling how we have been so exposed to cut-backs given how isolated the sole pivot is and the fact that the midfielders ahead of him are running backwards by the time they come in. Off the top of my head - we conceded various chances from cutbacks with Wolves and Forrest, conceded from 1 vs Spurs (Sarr), 1 vs Arsenal (Odegaard), 3 vs Brighton, 2 vs Bayern (Sane’s one was more of lay-off to be fair but the passing lane into Kane was not blocked), 1 vs Galatasaray (Aktecoglu). To keep conceding the same type of goal over and over again reflects a clear tactical issue and a weakness that is not being fixed and I am not entirely sure that the manager can be blameless in this. Fred’s mobility would have been useful for defending cutbacks but the manager got rid of him. Casemiro, one of the world’s best holding midfielders, is looking like a shadow of himself because he is not being protected in the build-up phase nor in defensive transitions.

I also think that the fact that Ten Hag hasn’t been consistent with the two 10s experiment has cast doubt into player’s minds whether this manager knows what he is doing. There has been no consistency in his Eriksen was brought in to sit next to Casemiro after Mount’s injury, before his mobility issues left us even more exposed on defensive transitions. Then we tried a diamond vs Brighton that failed miserably and we didn’t return to it. Then, upon Mount’s return, we went back to the two 10s vs Galatasaray. It didn’t work because Bruno outwide can’t dribble to beat his man, so there was an inability to drag the opponent’s defence out of shape to create space in the half-space a la City and Arsenal. Then he hooked Hannibal and went back to Eriksen in the pivot as he does not have the legs to be a wide 10 in Ten Hag’s system.

4. Final thoughts
It is telling that the best that United have looked this season are two moments of games in particular. Firstly, the first twenty or so minutes at Old Trafford when the opponent has not settled. Secondly, when tactics are thrown out of the window and we resort to hoofing and throwing the kitchen sink in order to try to recover from being a goal down. We saw this against Forrest and Brentford, and even against Palace and Brighton. These instances show to me that the players have not downed tools, and they still have the professional pride to keep seeking victory, and that they are in fact being failed by the manager’s inconsistent tactics.

For now, I am waiting to see how it will work with Shaw back in the side. The way we ended vs. Brentford is unsustainable. Perhaps Casemiro will be dropped and we will go back to basics with an Amrabat-Eriksen pivot. Ten Hag certainly has a selection headache on his hands. McTominay’s heroics may have earned him an opportunity to start but this may involve having to drop one of his big money signings in Mount, Antony or Hojlund. Antony’s return will, thankfully, end the wide Bruno experiment but this could result in the continuation of the two 10s experiment which is likely to expose Amrabat or whoever screens the defence as it has exposed Casemiro. We shall wait and see.
Very interesting points, and recognizeable. A few questions:

Build-u: Are you sure about us playing 3-1-6 much in build-up? I remember seeing it clearly in some preseason games (can’t remember which), with eg. Mainoo falling back into LCM position to make play, with a CM or LB going up into midfield and Mount and Bruno (or Mejbri?) going further ahead. But when season started, what I saw mostly was a FB tucking into CM with Casemiro (or going wide sometimes with Mount staying back sometimes) and one staying in the three in the build-up phaze, I believe.

The Brentford mistake was eerily like the one we had vs them last season when De Gea played Eriksen up. The issue in both situations is that the meeting player (Eriksen/Casemiro) should very clearly ping it back to the keeper to spread it wide on one touch, whereas in both cases Eriksen and Casemiro tried some very unsubstantiated stuff, prob due to a) not trusting de gea’s one-touch and b) Case recieved the ball from a centrally placed Maguire who clearly shouldn’t have played him up there with the wide options not being in place. I’m not sure that the build up phaze is so different from what worked ok last year, but there are no consistent relations in the back five this season, which introduces misunderstandings and then uncertainties and then errors.

Second question is about press: How does Ten Hag want us to press (tactical) and how do the players mange to press (performance)? Last year, pressing improved in small leaps during the first two thirds of the season. The system seemed rather consistent, with man-man marking except the front three, where striker and one of the wingers would cut lanes from keeper or one of the CB’s (probably decided before the game which). The qualified risk was that the winger cutting lanes inward had to be prepared to sprint back towards his opposite FB if he was bypassed. The timing, distance and speed of this pressure and regrouping was the difference between creating huge chances and being run over and picked off. Antony did this much more consistently than Rashford, Sancho and Bruno, not surpringly. When one or more players started to veer off from the press system, the same thing happened that happened at home to Liverpool under Solskjær (0-5), when some players overpressed (typically Bruno) and some underpressed in the same situations, typically the defenders and, placing the midfielders in impossible choices. Given that the system works very well when executed right, but is vulnerable to unsynchronicity and stress - is it not rather a symptom that we must be more consequent about the current press tactic rather than change it up, when so many players are either new to it (Højlund, Mount, Pellistri, Amrabat) or vulnerable to it when the collective is insecure (Rashford, Bruno, Casemiro, Eriksen)?

Third question is about the midfield roles. Is it really the case that there have been two 10’s? To me it seems that Mount has been playing a fairly typical 8 role so far in terms of spaces and tasks. He is not a McTom who barges or shoots, he rather presses and passes. After something like five games at the club, I think he’s picking up speed alot faster than several previous midfield purchases like Fred or Mkhitarian.

To me, all tactical mainlines have strengths and weaknesses, and it’s the collective performance of them that decides what will work more than wether the tactical set-up is ‘objectively good’ or not. This season, there are many factors operating simultaneously to undermine the collective performance (injuries, new players, injuries, individual weaknesses, injuries, Glazer-style preseason, injuries, new relations around central roles, injuries, scrutiny, injuries, players buckling under or affected by scrutiny (Greenwood, Sancho, Antony, Maguire, Rashford) and injuries. To me, that makes it impossible to say at this point how much of the tactics are just unfeasible, and how much of it will be just brilliant given a little time, patience and semi-normal circumstances. What do you think about these interactions?
 

TMDaines

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Not heard Mitten and Anka as angry and as pointed at a manager as they are on the latest Talk of the Devils podcast.

I think it is a bit of a litmus test for how the manager has lost so much credibility with even the most measured and reasonable journalists.
 

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Not heard Mitten and Anka as angry and as pointed at a manager as they are on the latest Talk of the Devils podcast.

I think it is a bit of a litmus test for how the manager has lost so much credibility with even the most measured and reasonable journalists.
I think it's just emotion of another thumping at home, by our biggest local rivals. I don't think any of the sections in midfield or attack were incorrect, he'd have got moaned at for picking Antony and I don't actually think defensively we were that bad before the pen.
 

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I think it's just emotion of another thumping at home, by our biggest local rivals. I don't think any of the sections in midfield or attack were incorrect, he'd have got moaned at for picking Antony and I don't actually think defensively we were that bad before the pen.
I don't think they criticised not picking Antony for what he could bring to the team yesterday, but they critisied ETH and United spending such fees on Antony and Mount when they are essentially fringe players at this point in time. United find themselves in an FFP bind in part because we spend ludicrous fees on replaceable players.
 

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I don't think they criticised not picking Antony for what he could bring to the team yesterday, but they critisied ETH and United spending such fees on Antony and Mount when they are essentially fringe players at this point in time. United find themselves in an FFP bind in part because we spend ludicrous fees on replaceable players.
He changed the formation multiple times in the game, suggesting he is clueless. Anthony and Mount were big money signings and both poor. So bad he cant even start him. Thats why he will be sacked by Xmas. No way back.
 

Grande

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I think it's just emotion of another thumping at home, by our biggest local rivals. I don't think any of the sections in midfield or attack were incorrect, he'd have got moaned at for picking Antony and I don't actually think defensively we were that bad before the pen.
Yes, the only difference after we won three straight games with a team pilfered by injuries on key players, was that even more key players were missing, we did well enough under the circumstamces until VAR gave City an early Christmas present and gave them the benefit of the perfect starting point. People are simple beings, they’ll say before the game ‘based on these starting line-ups, I think United are gonna get a good hiding from this City team’, and after the game they’ll say ‘I expected more from United, I am shocked and appalled!’
 

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I think it's just emotion of another thumping at home, by our biggest local rivals. I don't think any of the sections in midfield or attack were incorrect, he'd have got moaned at for picking Antony and I don't actually think defensively we were that bad before the pen.
It's not the fact that he's not deeming Antony good enough to start, nearly every fan would agree with that. It's that Antony is his biggest signing, how can your biggest signing not start the biggest game of the season, and what that says, that's the problem here.
 

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Not heard Mitten and Anka as angry and as pointed at a manager as they are on the latest Talk of the Devils podcast.

I think it is a bit of a litmus test for how the manager has lost so much credibility with even the most measured and reasonable journalists.
Ah, there's a new episode out already! Going to give it a listen now.

Talk of the Devils is always a cathartic listen.
 

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Yes, the only difference after we won three straight games with a team pilfered by injuries on key players, was that even more key players were missing, we did well enough under the circumstamces until VAR gave City an early Christmas present and gave them the benefit of the perfect starting point. People are simple beings, they’ll say before the game ‘based on these starting line-ups, I think United are gonna get a good hiding from this City team’, and after the game they’ll say ‘I expected more from United, I am shocked and appalled!’
Yep!
 

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Firing Ten Hag and bringing in another right now is pointless. The position is currently a poisoned chalice and in any case we are about to see a big shake up with Sir Jim. What I think will happen is that Ten Hag’s weak position will put Sir Jim in the driver’s seat when making changes in the football structure. Ten Hag can then either support those changes or be replaced.
 

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I think it's just emotion of another thumping at home, by our biggest local rivals. I don't think any of the sections in midfield or attack were incorrect, he'd have got moaned at for picking Antony and I don't actually think defensively we were that bad before the pen.
When has Bruno on the right wing ever worked for us?
 

Gordon Godot

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So what key players were injured yesterday? You think an aging Casimero would have made any difference? ETH has two of his trophy signings on the bench, why??? I think we know they are not good enough but he signed them. Can anyone tell me what Mount is meant to do in this team. ETH stated that starting Evans over Varanne was tactical? WTF? What do we expect from Lindelof at left back? We really looked any better when Shaw and AWB were fit, as I didnt see it. Its shambolic and its clear ETH is utterly lost at this point
 

Gordon Godot

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Firing Ten Hag and bringing in another right now is pointless. The position is currently a poisoned chalice and in any case we are about to see a big shake up with Sir Jim. What I think will happen is that Ten Hag’s weak position will put Sir Jim in the driver’s seat when making changes in the football structure. Ten Hag can then either support those changes or be replaced.
It doesnt matter whether ETH supports them or not. I think JR will sack him and rightly so. Hes out of his depth and having clearly demanded control over transfers (which is why Murtough also needs to go) his signings are generally terrible.
 

DavelinaJolie

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I don't think they criticised not picking Antony for what he could bring to the team yesterday, but they critisied ETH and United spending such fees on Antony and Mount when they are essentially fringe players at this point in time. United find themselves in an FFP bind in part because we spend ludicrous fees on replaceable players.
I think the criticism about ETH on Mount was the lengths ETH went to to explain how good and versatile a player Mount is, and how important ETH made it seem he would be, in comparison to Mount sitting on the bench. It doesn't line up.
 

Gordon Godot

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Very interesting points, and recognizeable. A few questions:

Build-u: Are you sure about us playing 3-1-6 much in build-up? I remember seeing it clearly in some preseason games (can’t remember which), with eg. Mainoo falling back into LCM position to make play, with a CM or LB going up into midfield and Mount and Bruno (or Mejbri?) going further ahead. But when season started, what I saw mostly was a FB tucking into CM with Casemiro (or going wide sometimes with Mount staying back sometimes) and one staying in the three in the build-up phaze, I believe.

The Brentford mistake was eerily like the one we had vs them last season when De Gea played Eriksen up. The issue in both situations is that the meeting player (Eriksen/Casemiro) should very clearly ping it back to the keeper to spread it wide on one touch, whereas in both cases Eriksen and Casemiro tried some very unsubstantiated stuff, prob due to a) not trusting de gea’s one-touch and b) Case recieved the ball from a centrally placed Maguire who clearly shouldn’t have played him up there with the wide options not being in place. I’m not sure that the build up phaze is so different from what worked ok last year, but there are no consistent relations in the back five this season, which introduces misunderstandings and then uncertainties and then errors.

Second question is about press: How does Ten Hag want us to press (tactical) and how do the players mange to press (performance)? Last year, pressing improved in small leaps during the first two thirds of the season. The system seemed rather consistent, with man-man marking except the front three, where striker and one of the wingers would cut lanes from keeper or one of the CB’s (probably decided before the game which). The qualified risk was that the winger cutting lanes inward had to be prepared to sprint back towards his opposite FB if he was bypassed. The timing, distance and speed of this pressure and regrouping was the difference between creating huge chances and being run over and picked off. Antony did this much more consistently than Rashford, Sancho and Bruno, not surpringly. When one or more players started to veer off from the press system, the same thing happened that happened at home to Liverpool under Solskjær (0-5), when some players overpressed (typically Bruno) and some underpressed in the same situations, typically the defenders and, placing the midfielders in impossible choices. Given that the system works very well when executed right, but is vulnerable to unsynchronicity and stress - is it not rather a symptom that we must be more consequent about the current press tactic rather than change it up, when so many players are either new to it (Højlund, Mount, Pellistri, Amrabat) or vulnerable to it when the collective is insecure (Rashford, Bruno, Casemiro, Eriksen)?

Third question is about the midfield roles. Is it really the case that there have been two 10’s? To me it seems that Mount has been playing a fairly typical 8 role so far in terms of spaces and tasks. He is not a McTom who barges or shoots, he rather presses and passes. After something like five games at the club, I think he’s picking up speed alot faster than several previous midfield purchases like Fred or Mkhitarian.

To me, all tactical mainlines have strengths and weaknesses, and it’s the collective performance of them that decides what will work more than wether the tactical set-up is ‘objectively good’ or not. This season, there are many factors operating simultaneously to undermine the collective performance (injuries, new players, injuries, individual weaknesses, injuries, Glazer-style preseason, injuries, new relations around central roles, injuries, scrutiny, injuries, players buckling under or affected by scrutiny (Greenwood, Sancho, Antony, Maguire, Rashford) and injuries. To me, that makes it impossible to say at this point how much of the tactics are just unfeasible, and how much of it will be just brilliant given a little time, patience and semi-normal circumstances. What do you think about these interactions?
Sorry its not impossible. Spurs have been trasnformed in a matter of weeks. There is no coherent plan from ETH and his signings, formations and then subs are all terrible.
 

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When has Bruno on the right wing ever worked for us?
The game before that (Copenhagen) he was playing Bruno at left back as we went forward in the first half. Bruno is a 10, that's the only position he´s good at. Simple as that - play him there, his role seems to change every game and now we're playing McTominay in behind the striker rather than Bruno. I get that he has goals in him and that he can press but he offers nothing in the build up and general play.

I'm fed up with ETH and his tactics. Carragher is spot on really, nobody knows what we´re trying to do.
 

VP89

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Wank fest of negative emotions. Don’t bother.
Aye. Mitten can across too much as a gloom merchant. He said this derby he was the least confident out of all of the ones in the past. We shite in the second half but that line was overkill.

The podcast is also overly anicdotal. It's chunks and chunks of the crew humble bragging about how they get to have a jolly and talk to players or supporters in a bar and get paid for it.
 

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It doesnt matter whether ETH supports them or not. I think JR will sack him and rightly so. Hes out of his depth and having clearly demanded control over transfers (which is why Murtough also needs to go) his signings are generally terrible.
I think control over transfers will be the sticking point. Basically Sir Jim will say "We are in control of transfers now with the new director of football." Ten Hag replies "I was promised control." Sir Jim says "You can quit if you like or accept the new conditions." Sir Jim may very will think that Ten Hag is an excellent coach but just crap at recruitment, and thus be ok with him continuing in a more focused coaching role (which is common at other clubs).
 

TMDaines

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I think the criticism about ETH on Mount was the lengths ETH went to to explain how good and versatile a player Mount is, and how important ETH made it seem he would be, in comparison to Mount sitting on the bench. It doesn't line up.
Yeah, it is the same with Antony. If you endorse that fee for the player it is because he should be a key individual for you and a consistent high-level performer. The manager looks ridiculous for having agreed to commit such fees for such players, only for them to end up on the fringes even when we are playing badly.

It completely undermines his judgment going forward.
 

VivaObertan

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So what key players were injured yesterday? You think an aging Casimero would have made any difference? ETH has two of his trophy signings on the bench, why??? I think we know they are not good enough but he signed them. Can anyone tell me what Mount is meant to do in this team. ETH stated that starting Evans over Varanne was tactical? WTF? What do we expect from Lindelof at left back? We really looked any better when Shaw and AWB were fit, as I didnt see it. Its shambolic and its clear ETH is utterly lost at this point
We were missing our entire back 4 and only proper defensive midfielder mate. He may have said not starting Varane was tactical but you kind read between the lines and infer it’s fitness related.

and the OP is right in that the phantom penalty did change the game and we had to start chasing
 

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I think the criticism about ETH on Mount was the lengths ETH went to to explain how good and versatile a player Mount is, and how important ETH made it seem he would be, in comparison to Mount sitting on the bench. It doesn't line up.
I can buy into that evaluation of mount because I rate him as a player. Always did.

Antony though is a Ten Hag disasterclass.
 

TMDaines

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Aye. Mitten can across too much as a gloom merchant. He said this derby he was the least confident out of all of the ones in the past. We shite in the second half but that line was overkill.
I don’t think so. We were utterly atrocious. On xG it was comfortably worse than the 0-5 vs Liverpool and 0-2 vs City in the same season under Ole. It was probably one of the worst, if not the worst match we have had at Old Trafford in the xG era. Even the 6-3 and 7-0 last season were a good deal better on xG.
 

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I don’t think so. We were utterly atrocious. On xG it was comfortably worse than the 0-5 vs Liverpool and 0-2 vs City in the same season under Ole. It was probably one of the worst, if not the worst match we have had at Old Trafford in the xG era. Even the 6-3 and 7-0 last season were a good deal better on xG.
Thing is games aren't just played on XG and despite that, my point is about the build up.

Going into the match he was more pessamistic than any other derby in history. Even the other hosts scoffed at that. We had 3 wins on the bounce at least going into this, compared to Oles season where we got smashed up to Liverpool at home before we faced City.
 

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It's not the fact that he's not deeming Antony good enough to start, nearly every fan would agree with that. It's that Antony is his biggest signing, how can your biggest signing not start the biggest game of the season, and what that says, that's the problem here.
Indeed. The fact he cost what he did and was pushed so far for, and doesn't start (because he's sh*te) is the problem.

I think the criticism about ETH on Mount was the lengths ETH went to to explain how good and versatile a player Mount is, and how important ETH made it seem he would be, in comparison to Mount sitting on the bench. It doesn't line up.
I like Mount and think he should play more. I don't understand ETH bigging him up either, for him to then basically not start any game of actual importance. I want to see him start a lot more.
 

TMDaines

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Thing is games aren't just played on XG and despite that, my point is about the build up.

Going into the match he was more pessamistic than any other derby in history. Even the other hosts scoffed at that. We had 3 wins on the bounce at least going into this, compared to Oles season where we got smashed up to Liverpool at home before we faced City.
I agree I thought he was wrong on that, but it turns out he was right ultimately. I’m not sure how you can hold it against him for seeing yesterday coming.

I thought we would turn up and give City a real game, but we got an absolute paddling.
 

VP89

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I agree I thought he was wrong on that, but it turns out he was right ultimately. I’m not sure how you can hold it against him for seeing yesterday coming.

I thought we would turn up and give City a real game, but we got an absolute paddling.
Yesterday's game is a risky game plan. If we scored first, which looked very plausible in the first 30 minutes it would have probably been a masterclass. Conceding from a soft penalty is bad luck and the rest is a poor reaction to going down.

In the 2-0 defeat, we were fortunate that City quite literally couldn't be arsed for us. They were just showing mercy and it was so obvious. That's why people saw that game as worse than the Liverpool game. The 2-0 game had no actual game plan either. It was everyone everywhere from minute one before retreating to cowardly walkabouts. I still see that game as far far worse.
 

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I don't think they criticised not picking Antony for what he could bring to the team yesterday, but they critisied ETH and United spending such fees on Antony and Mount when they are essentially fringe players at this point in time. United find themselves in an FFP bind in part because we spend ludicrous fees on replaceable players.
I’ve not listened to it yet but even worse if that people were concerned about this before the signings. Antony had huge question marks over his output in the Dutch league, where even those who have been goal/assist machines, have struggled to replicate it.

There were also loads of discussions about how Mount was an odd signing given the position he plays and the need for someone to play alongside Bruno and Casemiro.
 

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Plasticine dogs are ALWAYS the answer, whatever the question.
This is largely true, except when the question is: "What type of animal has a..."

Actually, never mind. The answer would be Plasticine dogs there too.

Carry on, sorry about that.
 

The Purley King

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Indeed. The fact he cost what he did and was pushed so far for, and doesn't start (because he's sh*te) is the problem.



I like Mount and think he should play more. I don't understand ETH bigging him up either, for him to then basically not start any game of actual importance. I want to see him start a lot more.
But then he’d have to drop Bruno which it appears he is entirely incapable of doing.
 

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Listening now, Anka and Mitten going in, I've never heard them so animated.
 

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The point was not about lack of effort, but about application. Not doing what was told.
If we keep losing duels, and we lose almost all of our 50/50's then yes it's also lack of effort and hunger. Man, there is NO player I like in this team. We could swap them for the whole squad of any random PL team and I really wouldn't mind. We have 0 players to take us to the top level as shown by our lack of trophies and succes ( Bruno, Rashford, Dalot, Shaw, Mct, Maguire, AWB, etc ) all players who have been playing here for X years and have nothing to show for it ( except big fat bank accounts ).
 

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Listening now, Anka and Mitten going in, I've never heard them so animated.
I thought the same. The Talk of the Devils lot are usually quite reserved when it comes to criticising the club and/or manager, probably due to the links they have (Mitten especially). So quite surprised to hear how scathing they were.
 
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Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
28,664
Not heard Mitten and Anka as angry and as pointed at a manager as they are on the latest Talk of the Devils podcast.

I think it is a bit of a litmus test for how the manager has lost so much credibility with even the most measured and reasonable journalists.
Yeah, because it's clear the manager is full of it.