Angel Gomes — Is he the key player to unlock organized defenses?

AneRu

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If you don't give him the opportunity to play then you won't know. Playing in the reserves or the u21 doesn't show the reality of playing in the first team.
Give him his chance to start a few games and then let's see if he is ready or not.
If you don't buy a lottery ticket then you will never win it.
I don't think he necessarily needs to start to get smoke opportunity to show whether he is ready. Just give him a few cameos of 20 to 30 minutes increasing as he settles into the PL environment. If it works then look to start him more. The Cups present an opportunity to play him if Ole is genuine about giving him a chance.

The frustrating thing is that he is not being kept out by a prime Rooney or Cantona but by ineffective players whose bluntness is costing us points despite the team being in control of matches. It would be tragic if he never gets a chance because of players who shouldn't be at the club and who will be offloaded in a few seasons.
 

In Rainbows

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What has CHO done that he has shown to be an upgrade to Willian?

Willian is ageing hence he is being phased out with CHO phased in, it is more a replacement than upgrade.
Younger doesn't mean better. On current ability I don't see how he's an upgrade.
You've got to be kidding me. CHO was a clear upgrade on Willian who has been awful since the beginning of last season. There's a reason why Chelsea fans were upset Willian was being played by Sarri and why they wanted Willian sold to Barca. This reminds me of Matic, where Chelsea fans were clearly unhappy with him, but United fans don't watch enough of Chelsea so think said player is still good.

Also, upgrade or replacement is semantics. That's the same situation Gomes finds himself in compared to Mata.
 

Valuedrug

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Angel dominated at an earlier age for the youth teams, has better technique than Pereira, and has better vision than both Januzaj and Pereira. If you don't think Angel has vision, than I'm seriously questioning whether you've ever watched him play. He probably has the best vision of anyone I've seen in our youth setup.

Januzaj had vision, but think Angel's weight of pass for that final pass was better. Januzaj was better at holding play up, which is why he excelled as a 9 for us when he was playing alongside Lingard. Januzaj had better ball control whenever the ball came down. On the ground they're pretty even. Januzaj went up a level in regards to going past players after he went on tour with United, so that is something he had that Gomes likely won't have.

The only thing Pereira has over Gomes is probably energy to get stuck in, and set pieces when passing. Gomes is equally as good as Pereira in regards to scoring free kicks though.
I never said I watched him play. I saw some highlights on YouTube. I didn't see anything particularly noticeable, and usually highlight videos do just that - cherry pick all the best stuff. He has the best vision you have ever seen from anyone in the youth setup? Sounds very promising (and a bit like hyperbole to be honest), but I hope you're right. Just a bit odd. If we're sitting on the greatest talent ever, and he doesn't even make the bench, when the creative forwards in first team are struggling, but I guess there could be any number of reasons for that.
 

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When he gets a cameo he will try to to do much and that is not good. You have to start a player and tell him to play his game and then he would be relaxed and need to be relaxed to play his normal game.
 

In Rainbows

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I never said I watched him play. I saw some highlights on YouTube. I didn't see anything particularly noticeable, and usually highlight videos do just that - cherry pick all the best stuff. He has the best vision you have ever seen from anyone in the youth setup? Sounds very promising (and a bit like hyperbole to be honest), but I hope you're right. Just a bit odd. If we're sitting on the greatest talent ever, and he doesn't even make the bench, when the creative forwards in first team are struggling, but I guess there could be any number of reasons for that.
Who said he was the greatest talent ever? He's a level of talent up there with Januzaj, Ravel, Pogba, and Greenwood. Pereira is not on that level and never was.

And it is strange you don't see his vision. There are more highlights of his vision than there are of Januzaj or Pereira's vision.
 

romufc

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If we are afraid of PSG and Barca coming in and stealing our academy players, we might as well not have an academy. Or let's just develop mediocre players that nobody wants?

You are not saying we should start Lingard or Mata. Who else on the squad is capable of unlocking packed in defenses?

We don't have data on Gomes, which is why he needs to play so we can see what we have. We know Lingard and Mata are shite, so there's that.

Whether or not someone is 19 is a really poor reason to not play someone. Yeah, Messi was a disaster at 19, so was Mbappe. Pulisic was terrible, Sancho, Ronaldo, Havertz, Felix, Brandt, Gotze, de Jong, DeLigt. Cesc Fabregas was lucky to get into that Arsenal side.... etc. etc.

Playing Gomes against Crystal Palace or West Ham or Burnley for 30 minutes, just to see what you have in the lad, doesn't seem like a big ask to me.

Maybe because Gomes is not got the quality that the names you mentioned have / mad at 19. Have you considered that option?

You do realise experience is vital in a young team? or have you never actually played football?
 

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Ole has said he will be given game time in the cups. If he is a standout player then, then he will be gradually integrated into the premier sides. Probably 10-15 minutes at a time at first.
 

Treble

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Gomes might be an option, the key player he probably isn't. The answer to organised defences is an organised attack, not this or that (young) player.

We need points now, not experiments. Another 2-3 games without a win and the players might lose faith in the manager/the project. Being closer to the relegaion zone than to the top 4 would be demoralisng. Then even Messi won't be able to help.

Asking Gomes to stand out in the PL as a creative force when he doesn't exactly stand out for England U20 and isn't even called up for England U21 is a bit much. Sancho's success has completely distorted the perspective on young players. He is the exception which confirms the rule.
 

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Gomes might be an option, the key player he probably isn't. The answer to organised defences is an organised attack, not this or that (young) player.

We need points now, not experiments. Another 2-3 games without a win and the players might lose faith in the manager/the project. Being closer to the relegaion zone than to the top 4 would be demoralisng. Then even Messi won't be able to help.

Asking Gomes to stand out in the PL as a creative force when he doesn't exactly stand out for England U20 and isn't even called up for England U21 is a bit much. Sancho's success has completely distorted the perspective on young players. He is the exception which confirms the rule.
I don't think it's an experiment, he played in pre-season against Tottenham and had a good game. He's also played well in the EFL cup against a physical side - albeit lower league side. I don't see it as him being the key player, just an opportunity for someone to bring something we're currently lacking. If you're not going to give him the opportunity now when we're pretty devoid of any creativity, you may as well sell him.
 

Enigma_87

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I don't think it's an experiment, he played in pre-season against Tottenham and had a good game. He's also played well in the EFL cup against a physical side - albeit lower league side. I don't see it as him being the key player, just an opportunity for someone to bring something we're currently lacking. If you're not going to give him the opportunity now when we're pretty devoid of any creativity, you may as well sell him.
From what I've seen from him he's a real talent. He has the potential to become a first team player for us. I see him in Januzaj bracket and better than Cleverley etc were at his age. However he's long shot from becoming a regular at this point of his development. maybe we're looking at 2-3 years the very least.

It's one thing to show potential in a friendly and occasional cup game - completely different ball game when you are relied upon on consistent basis.

Should be eased into it. 15-20 mins as a sub, see how he goes, maybe an occasional start against lower ranked side at home.
 

Lash

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From what I've seen from him he's a real talent. He has the potential to become a first team player for us. I see him in Januzaj bracket and better than Cleverley etc were at his age. However he's long shot from becoming a regular at this point of his development. maybe we're looking at 2-3 years the very least.

It's one thing to show potential in a friendly and occasional cup game - completely different ball game when you are relied upon on consistent basis.

Should be eased into it. 15-20 mins as a sub, see how he goes, maybe an occasional start against lower ranked side at home.
Yeah, I totally agree. I'm not losing my shit like a lot of people are at the fact he's not starting or making the bench. He didn't have the best game overall against the West Ham u23s and I think he went down with cramp later in the game, which doesn't give the best indication he's ready to be a regular for us. I'd like him to start against Astana at home - probably asking a bit much, but at least 20 mins. He'll definitely start against Rochdale, so he'll have a very good 2 opportunities in the coming weeks and I hope he takes the chance. Depending on Lingard's illness as well, he could make the bench against Leicester.
 

Treble

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I don't think it's an experiment, he played in pre-season against Tottenham and had a good game. He's also played well in the EFL cup against a physical side - albeit lower league side. I don't see it as him being the key player, just an opportunity for someone to bring something we're currently lacking. If you're not going to give him the opportunity now when we're pretty devoid of any creativity, you may as well sell him.
I hope Gomes starts against Astana or at least in the Carabao Cup. He will get his chance soon. Leicester, Wham away and Arsenal are difficult games though and to throw him in such games would be an experiment. If the results are not good, Ole will need to change something and might play Gomes even in the PL.
 

In Rainbows

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Gomes might be an option, the key player he probably isn't. The answer to organised defences is an organised attack, not this or that (young) player.

We need points now, not experiments. Another 2-3 games without a win and the players might lose faith in the manager/the project. Being closer to the relegaion zone than to the top 4 would be demoralisng. Then even Messi won't be able to help.

Asking Gomes to stand out in the PL as a creative force when he doesn't exactly stand out for England U20 and isn't even called up for England U21 is a bit much. Sancho's success has completely distorted the perspective on young players. He is the exception which confirms the rule.
We need to experiment because we're not getting points. The only way we can solve our midfield crisis is through internal means, of which Gomes is a part of. How else do you solve this? By trying out Pereira again? Of course we're going to try out Fred, but it's weird to think that Gomes is not an option to be tried out because it would mean experimentation. There are only 3 options at this point until January's transfer window. Solve through playing the same players that have been tried, not solving it, or solving it through experimentation.

And it's so typical to think Gomes doesn't stand out for the England U20 based off of 1 performance which none of us watched, and actually the comment was only based on the first half.
 

Cassidy

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Gomes might be an option, the key player he probably isn't. The answer to organised defences is an organised attack, not this or that (young) player.

We need points now, not experiments. Another 2-3 games without a win and the players might lose faith in the manager/the project. Being closer to the relegaion zone than to the top 4 would be demoralisng. Then even Messi won't be able to help.

Asking Gomes to stand out in the PL as a creative force when he doesn't exactly stand out for England U20 and isn't even called up for England U21 is a bit much. Sancho's success has completely distorted the perspective on young players. He is the exception which confirms the rule.
Without us experimenting we’re not going to be getting many points as what we’re currently doing isn't working
 

Enigma_87

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We need to experiment because we're not getting points. The only way we can solve our midfield crisis is through internal means, of which Gomes is a part of. How else do you solve this? By trying out Pereira again? Of course we're going to try out Fred, but it's weird to think that Gomes is not an option to be tried out because it would mean experimentation. There are only 3 options at this point until January's transfer window. Solve through playing the same players that have been tried, not solving it, or solving it through experimentation.

And it's so typical to think Gomes doesn't stand out for the England U20 based off of 1 performance which none of us watched, and actually the comment was only based on the first half.
Or we just need to raise our current level and improve the senior players we have in the team.

Throwing a kid in the deep end and expecting him to improve our results is really not how things work. Even if he was as talented as Messi(which he isn't), he wouldn't single handedly be the answer to our midfield problems.

It could actually backfire both for his confidence and could result in even worse results.
 

Smores

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Or we just need to raise our current level and improve the senior players we have in the team.

Throwing a kid in the deep end and expecting him to improve our results is really not how things work. Even if he was as talented as Messi(which he isn't), he wouldn't single handedly be the answer to our midfield problems.

It could actually backfire both for his confidence and could result in even worse results.
No one is asking or expecting him to single handedly improve our results though?

It's just one small improvement we could make and if he doesn't perform he'll just be like the rest of his team mates. I can't think of a time of less pressure for any youngster than playing amongst this lot.

I keep having to repeat this across threads but we've thrown plenty of youngsters in the deep end before without issue. Mainly whilst we're in title form too.
 

Enigma_87

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No one is asking or expecting him to single handedly improve our results though?

It's just one small improvement we could make and if he doesn't perform he'll just be like the rest of his team mates. I can't think of a time of less pressure for any youngster than playing amongst this lot.

I keep having to repeat this across threads but we've thrown plenty of youngsters in the deep end before without issue. Mainly whilst we're in title form too.
Many think he's the answer for our bad results since the beginning of the season, whilst in reality he's long way from being a first teamer for a top 4 side (or a side that would aspire to be one).

Throwing youngsters in a successful, coherent team is actually much better than throwing them in a struggling team that has no actual idea of how they are playing or have some kind of tactical identity.

If you add Gomes in a Barca side he won't look out of place and would be better for him in terms of development as he can have the chance to shine and play in a very welcoming environment(or under Fergie). Put him in a struggling team and the fans will turn on him after 2-3 inconsistent showings.
 

Treble

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We need to experiment because we're not getting points. The only way we can solve our midfield crisis is through internal means, of which Gomes is a part of. How else do you solve this? By trying out Pereira again? Of course we're going to try out Fred, but it's weird to think that Gomes is not an option to be tried out because it would mean experimentation. There are only 3 options at this point until January's transfer window. Solve through playing the same players that have been tried, not solving it, or solving it through experimentation.

And it's so typical to think Gomes doesn't stand out for the England U20 based off of 1 performance which none of us watched, and actually the comment was only based on the first half.
It's not clear why we are not getting points: according to xG it is not because we are playing poorly. Many think that we deserved 12 pts from the first 4 games. Why change then?

Gomes will get his chance already in September, he has to show he is ready.
 

Cassidy

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It's not clear why we are not getting points: according to xG it is not because we are playing poorly. Many think that we deserved 12 pts from the first 4 games. Why change then?

Gomes will get his chance already in September, he has to show he is ready.
Its clear our options at no10 are not creating chances
 

Ballist1x

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It would be nice if we brought on young players with more than 5 minutes of a match to go...
 

Treble

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Its clear our options at no10 are not creating chances
Didn't Mata combine well with James against Soton?

Ole and his staff don't seem to believe that Gomes is ready, same with England's U21 manager. Gomes will get chances soon to prove they are wrong.
 

Cassidy

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Didn't Mata combine well with James against Soton?

Ole and his staff don't seem to believe that Gomes is ready, same with England's U21 manager. Gomes will get chances soon to prove they are wrong.
No I don't think Mata did enough vs Southampton or his previous appearances

Also yes I know Ole and staff do not think he is ready. As for England u21 well if he is not even making match day squads at his club he wouldn't be considered there.
 

Asger

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Is he playing for England u-19 against Germany at the moment?
 

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Ok, do you know any stream perhaps or channel it might be on?
No idea, sorry. He's on the bench anyway.

A better shout would be watching Mason Greenwood for the England U21s who are playing Kosovo U21s. At least he's likely to start! That game will be ok BT Sport, KO at 19:45.
 

tomaldinho1

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Need to stop thinking the issue is with finding a player to 'unlock' teams. Sure, if you signed Messi you might have a point but to think a 17 yr old is the answer is pure madness.

Our issues are many but, on this point, we simply don't seem to want to develop a pattern of play to break teams down, it all about fast transitions and catching teams when they are unorganised. It's a team issue. Maybe it's a good idea to rely on the counter, we'll see at the end of the season but unless our tactics change, we'll be struggling to break down the better defences all year.
 

limerickcitykid

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A better shout would be watching Mason Greenwood for the England U21s who are playing Kosovo U21s. At least he's likely to start! That game will be ok BT Sport, KO at 19:45.
He doesn't start, nor has he ever started an u21s match. Not sure how you thought it was likely. The others are older and most play regular senior football.
 

DSG

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Maybe because Gomes is not got the quality that the names you mentioned have / mad at 19. Have you considered that option?

You do realise experience is vital in a young team? or have you never actually played football?
I’ve played football at decently high level. One of my coaches was a former national team coach (I did not play at the national team level, haha), I’ve played with and against PL players (Man City, Aston Villa), Bundesliga 2 players, La Liga Segunda and full internationals (Denmark, Norway, England, USA). This was in my 20’s and in some cases, 30’s. I’m sure there are a lot of members of the Caf that have played at a semi-pro level and have played with similar level players. Playing at a decently high level, you can immediately see the stars on the pitch.

Experience is great to have all over the pitch. But there are a few positions where experience is very important (CB, DM, GK, CM to some extent), whereas experience is not as critical in most attacking positions. Your Joao Felix, Kaka, Messi, Ronaldo, Sancho, And Sterling’s of the world should be starting and playing regularly in their teens. And they did. And on any field I’ve played on, technique, movement and creativity win out, doesn’t matter the age.

My point is that we have nothing to lose at this point. We KNOW who Lingard and Mata are. They aren’t going to unlock well organized defenses because we’ve seen it. You’re saying, let’s not play Gomes because he doesn’t have experience. So, the alternative is a loss or tie because the other options are Lingard and Mata. Personally, I’d rather see a lot of Gomes (and by a lot, I mean 1500-3000 minutes) some of it in the PL, some of it in the Cups. Then we will really have an idea how good this kid could be. As an organization, it will allow us to either confirm he’s not good enough, or realize we have an absolute gem.... or even somewhere in the middle. Whatever the outcome, we can then move on as a team and prepare ourselves for the next transfer windows.

So, let me turn the question back on you, what levels have you played at, and more importantly, how does that even factor in to our debate here? I would posit that everyone’s opinion is valid to some extent. Why does playing at a high level enter into it?
 

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Don’t think Ole trusts him to unlock a bathroom door never mind an organized defense.
 

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Need to stop thinking the issue is with finding a player to 'unlock' teams. Sure, if you signed Messi you might have a point but to think a 17 yr old is the answer is pure madness.

Our issues are many but, on this point, we simply don't seem to want to develop a pattern of play to break teams down, it all about fast transitions and catching teams when they are unorganised. It's a team issue. Maybe it's a good idea to rely on the counter, we'll see at the end of the season but unless our tactics change, we'll be struggling to break down the better defences all year.
19. I’m not sure why, after 5 pages of posts, people seem to still be getting this wrong. RTFF.

I really wonder at the level of understanding of football of the Caf members. Have you ever watched Kaka, Ronaldinho, Torres, Suarez, Messi, Ronaldo, even guys like Klose and Meuller. Their off ball movement is sublime. That’s not experience, it’s innate to some extent.

Lingard and Mata won’t change. Asking them to do things they aren’t capable of in the heat of the moment won’t solve the problem.
 

DSG

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Don’t think Ole trusts him to unlock a bathroom door never mind an organized defense.
Maybe. But Ole will most likely be gone if we finish outside the top 4. At this rate, with mid and lower table teams packing it in versus us, you’re leaving it to chance that you can get in the top 4. He’d better figure out if Greenwood and Gomes will help us achieve top 4 sooner rather than later, because Mata and Lingard are not the answer.
 

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Maybe. But Ole will most likely be gone if we finish outside the top 4. At this rate, with mid and lower table teams packing it in versus us, you’re leaving it to chance that you can get in the top 4. He’d better figure out if Greenwood and Gomes will help us achieve top 4 sooner rather than later, because Mata and Lingard are not the answer.
People on here say he won’t play them because it is not fair on them as they are too young and inexperienced. I think he is just worried about his own future and is hedging his bets on the experienced players getting him out of this shocking run of results. I think he will be in for a harsh surprise though especially considering the fans would appreciate it more if we see the likes of Gomes, Greenwood and Chong and from my own personal point of view I would be a lot more forgiving if the results were still iffy but we were showing faith in our future and not in past it and mediocre players.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I’ve played football at decently high level. One of my coaches was a former national team coach (I did not play at the national team level, haha), I’ve played with and against PL players (Man City, Aston Villa), Bundesliga 2 players, La Liga Segunda and full internationals (Denmark, Norway, England, USA). This was in my 20’s and in some cases, 30’s. I’m sure there are a lot of members of the Caf that have played at a semi-pro level and have played with similar level players. Playing at a decently high level, you can immediately see the stars on the pitch.

Experience is great to have all over the pitch. But there are a few positions where experience is very important (CB, DM, GK, CM to some extent), whereas experience is not as critical in most attacking positions. Your Joao Felix, Kaka, Messi, Ronaldo, Sancho, And Sterling’s of the world should be starting and playing regularly in their teens. And they did. And on any field I’ve played on, technique, movement and creativity win out, doesn’t matter the age.

My point is that we have nothing to lose at this point. We KNOW who Lingard and Mata are. They aren’t going to unlock well organized defenses because we’ve seen it. You’re saying, let’s not play Gomes because he doesn’t have experience. So, the alternative is a loss or tie because the other options are Lingard and Mata. Personally, I’d rather see a lot of Gomes (and by a lot, I mean 1500-3000 minutes) some of it in the PL, some of it in the Cups. Then we will really have an idea how good this kid could be. As an organization, it will allow us to either confirm he’s not good enough, or realize we have an absolute gem.... or even somewhere in the middle. Whatever the outcome, we can then move on as a team and prepare ourselves for the next transfer windows.

So, let me turn the question back on you, what levels have you played at, and more importantly, how does that even factor in to our debate here? I would posit that everyone’s opinion is valid to some extent. Why does playing at a high level enter into it?
Some great points made across your post but the highlighted part is what stands out to me.

OgS has agreed to push a youth narrative but Mata will see A LOT more game time this season although we know what he is.

If Gomes doesn’t get more than a ‘run out’ tomorrow then I find this one of the more grievous things in the OgS reign as honestly if one player shouldn’t be played in favour of youth it’s Mata [actually Matic leads that poll for me but Mata isn’t far behind].

We are not winning the league & if OgS has been tasked to get top4 with this squad then he’s been set up to fail.

A home game with an injury crisis, we honestly need to change what we’ve been doing this season.
 

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People on here say he won’t play them because it is not fair on them as they are too young and inexperienced. I think he is just worried about his own future and is hedging his bets on the experienced players getting him out of this shocking run of results. I think he will be in for a harsh surprise though especially considering the fans would appreciate it more if we see the likes of Gomes, Greenwood and Chong and from my own personal point of view I would be a lot more forgiving if the results were still iffy but we were showing faith in our future and not in past it and mediocre players.
I think that this is what 75% of the Caf is saying... maybe the majority of season tickets holders. Look, I love Mata. He’s scored some wonderful goals, been a fine servant of the club and is a fine person to boot. But at his current level he is not the answer. And although a willing defender, his lack of quickness means we cannot use a pressing system effectively.

Lingard, well.... he runs his heart out. But he just doesn't have enough quality. Not for top 4 in this league at this time.
 

DSG

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Some great points made across your post but the highlighted part is what stands out to me.

OgS has agreed to push a youth narrative but Mata will see A LOT more game time this season although we know what he is.

If Gomes doesn’t get more than a ‘run out’ tomorrow then I find this one of the more grievous things in the OgS reign as honestly if one player shouldn’t be played in favour of youth it’s Mata [actually Matic leads that poll for me but Mata isn’t far behind].

We are not winning the league & if OgS has been tasked to get top4 with this squad then he’s been set up to fail.

A home game with an injury crisis, we honestly need to change what we’ve been doing this season.
I’m not sure Ole should start him, but maybe bring him on in the 60th minute? It’s time. Let’s get an answer. SAF would do this all the time. Throw out Kieran Richardson for 10 appearances.... not up to snuff, okay, off you go.