Antony under investigation by Brazilian authorities for domestic abuse | Back in the squad

[gaffs]

While I agree, I don't think the club should do anything unless there is a charge.

But it doesn't look good for Anthony. The pictures are not as shocking at the Greenwood case and obviously there is no tape, but the fact a doctor treated her after he allegedly headbutted her at the hotel does not look good.

A doctor's evidence would go a long way in court.

 

[moses]

Are you questioning the legal acuity of a TV celebrity? Why? She obviously didn't give it any more thought than wanting to post a reaction.

Yeah there is definitely no way any women could actually care about domestic abuse!?

 

[manutddjw]

The respecting the court's decision stuff is too simplistic. There's lots of stuff that is entirely legal, but morally awful and worthy of suspension/removal.

When it comes to legal issues like these ones, simplistic and respecting the courts opinion is the only way.

I think I see where you’re coming from in terms of moral but non legal cases though as we’ve seen players refusing to wear rainbow armbands and the like. In cases like those I think it’s up to the teammates and his behaviour. If a player is openly being racist then yeah by all means get rid.

 

[Plastic Evra]

Fair points.
I however would hope that internally the club runs courses on the issues players will face being public figures. How to handle social media etc. Years ago I was working as an engineer for Phillips, this was in the 80s and we had internal courses on how to handle ourselves whilst on the job which covered everything from dealing with difficult customers to being respectful and representing the company well. Also had to attend defensive driving courses because I had a company car and conduct while on international work.
These things arent new and I am just amazed we find ourselves with 2 similar situations so close together especially given the clubs profile, players profiles and all that comes with being such well know entities. When we look back at all the issues Giggs had with his private life coming under the spotlight I really hope our players are getting good guidance from the club.

Yes, football clubs like to wax lyrical about their duty of care for players that have been with them since childhood (don't think too hard of all the kids that were discarded because they weren't good enough), it's probably fair we'd expect them to hold an actual education standard both for minors and their senior employees, provide the best accomodations to guide and help young adults, just like they have the best physio rooms, etc...

In the Antony case as I understand it there's currently two very salient issues for the club :
- The allegation a club doc was involved at one point patching up his partner after abuse.
- How has the club managed the past 4 months since they likely became aware Antony was possibly involved in legal jeopardy and the broad lines of what the allegations were.

 

[gaffs]

There's no middle ground? Tackling domestic violence is step towards Minority report? Why is Rachel Riley of all people the one making ye so hysterical?

So many of these cases never get to the legal system or even reported. The overwhelming majority in fact.

Because many men feel threatened by intelligent women who expresses her own opinions.

 

[Mingus]

With these allegations, there is a good possibility that the club have some knowledge of what did or didn't happen.

If there were accusations that the club doctors had to get involved to attend the injured party, this would have been verified already. It's difficult to imagine that the club would continue to play Antony if they believed it would blow back when it all came out.

 

[Laurencio]

Yeah there is definitely no way any women could actually care about domestic abuse!?

What? I imagine it's perfectly reasonable that she didn't spend significant time thinking about the legal merits of her suggestion. She should be allowed to post that opinion without being entirely caught up with the intricacies of the legal system and judicial procedure. Which goes back to my point - why criticise her for that.

 

[moses]

What? I imagine it's perfectly reasonable that she didn't spend significant time thinking about the legal merits of her suggestion. She should be allowed to post that opinion without being entirely caught up of the intricacies of the legal system and judicial procedure. Which goes back to my point - why criticise her for that.

I misunderstood you. Apologies.

 

[NotThatSoph]

What? I imagine it's perfectly reasonable that she didn't spend significant time thinking about the legal merits of her suggestion. She should be allowed to post that opinion without being entirely caught up of the intricacies of the legal system and judicial procedure. Which goes back to my point - why criticise her for that.

Her suggestion is also, incidentally, perfectly fine legally.

 

[Laurencio]

Not thinking about the legality of something she feels about is not the same as doing it for clicks or did I misunderstand you?

You did.

Her suggestion is also, incidentally, perfectly fine legally.

Even better - I still don't think she needs to meet that standard in order to comment though. It's an unfair requirement.

 

[moses]

You did.

Yes I did. Apologies.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Why are we under pressure to do anything? Someone has posted allegation on the internet, which are not new and under investigation also. Antony has already responded and from his response it looks like he is confident the court proceedings will be in his favour.

If we start acting on every allegation with level of proof that we have been presented with, then i am afraid no player is safe. This case may or may not be real but it will be very easy to fabricate evidence like the one we have right now and accuse absolutely anyone. All Manutd should do is wait and let legal process to uncover the truth. It’s not Club responsibility to decide Antony’s guilt.

 

[moses]

Why are we under pressure to do anything? Someone has posted allegation on the internet, which are not new and under investigation also. Antony has already responded and from his response it looks like he is confident the court proceedings will be in his favour.

If we start acting on every allegation with level of proof that we have been presented with, then i am afraid no player is safe. This case may or may not be real but it will be very easy to fabricate evidence like the one we have right now and accuse absolutely anyone. All Manutd should do is wait and let legal process to uncover the truth. It’s not Club responsibility to decide Antony guilt.

We should just ignore it until a judge comes to a decision? Because of player safety?

Don you have any idea of the stats around finding offenders guilty?

"No player is safe". Wow.

 

[samlee86]

This is why you should always assume someone is innocent until proven otherwise. The mob will not stop. Rachel Riley will tweet about every incident and we have to follow suit.

Not defending Antony (or Greenwood).

Anyway. Not sure why there is so much gloom. Actually think we play better without him. Push Bruno out wide and Amrabat in the centre and watch us move up the table.

This is a blessing in disguise if you ask me

 

[gaffs]

Why are we under pressure to do anything? Someone has posted allegation on the internet, which are not new and under investigation also. Antony has already responded and from his response it looks like he is confident the court proceedings will be in his favour.

If we start acting on every allegation with level of proof that we have been presented with, then i am afraid no player is safe. This case may or may not be real but it will be very easy to fabricate evidence like the one we have right now and accuse absolutely anyone. All Manutd should do is wait and let legal process to uncover the truth. It’s not Club responsibility to decide Antony’s guilt.

Agree. It is not United responsibility to decide Antonys guilt. Even though they did inject themselves in the Greenwood case by creating an investigation then announcing they didn't believe him to be guilty.

In a regular workplace, if there were similar allegations made against an employe, that employee would likely be suspended from work.

I worked at a large corporate law firm and that happened a few times.

 

[mav_9me]

Why are we under pressure to do anything? Someone has posted allegation on the internet, which are not new and under investigation also. Antony has already responded and from his response it looks like he is confident the court proceedings will be in his favour.

If we start acting on every allegation with level of proof that we have been presented with, then i am afraid no player is safe. This case may or may not be real but it will be very easy to fabricate evidence like the one we have right now and accuse absolutely anyone. All Manutd should do is wait and let legal process to uncover the truth. It’s not Club responsibility to decide Antony’s guilt.

I don't get it either.

 

[Stack]

This is why you should always assume someone is innocent until proven otherwise. The mob will not stop. Rachel Riley will tweet about every incident and we have to follow suit.

Not defending Antony (or Greenwood).

Anyway. Not sure why there is so much gloom. Actually think we play better without him. Push Bruno out wide and Amrabat in the centre and watch us move up the table.

This is a blessing in disguise if you ask me

This whole Mob and Riley narrative is tedious.

 

[PaulScholes99]

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How can Arsenal not be under pressure to drop Partey, who faces way way worse allegations and had some not so good looking evidence in public? Except a few fans, it seems nobody cares there. I can't understand it - either both clubs should be facing pressure to drop the player or both not.

 

[pratyush_utd]

We should just ignore it until a judge comes to a decision? Because of player safety?

Don you have any idea of the stats around finding offenders guilty?

"No player is safe". Wow.

I am not sure we are talking about stats here. It has nothing to do with this case. Antony’s guilt cant be determined by how stats are in domestic violence case. They will be decided on the merits of the evidence present. And the ones we have in this case are allegations and bunch of photos and whatsapp snapshots. Not a single one proves anything. Atleast in Greenwood case, you had audio which damaged his reputation and he was charged for various serious offences. With what we know from the news article, i will be surprised if Antony is even charged with anything.

At present moment we dont know enough, and whatever we do know, points in favour of Antony. You cant act against anyone with the level of proof that is presented just because the stats on
domestic violence is disturbing to read.

 

[Hugh Jass]

How can Arsenal not be under pressure to drop Partey, who faces way way worse allegations and had some not so good looking evidence in public? Except a few fans, it seems nobody cares there. I can't understand it - either both clubs should be facing pressure to drop the player or both not.

United is the biggest club in England and probably second biggest in the world. Everything just goes viral. A player cannot piss in the street and not have it go viral.

 

[Laurencio]

Why are we under pressure to do anything? Someone has posted allegation on the internet, which are not new and under investigation also. Antony has already responded and from his response it looks like he is confident the court proceedings will be in his favour.

If we start acting on every allegation with level of proof that we have been presented with, then i am afraid no player is safe. This case may or may not be real but it will be very easy to fabricate evidence like the one we have right now and accuse absolutely anyone. All Manutd should do is wait and let legal process to uncover the truth. It’s not Club responsibility to decide Antony’s guilt.

The media is gathering pace on the story and Brazil axed him. The club has to do something, anything really.

I don't know if suspension is the right move , but suspensions are not a result of a conviction - imprisonment is. Suspending someone under criminal investigation is fairly common practice.

We dithered on Greenwood and are silent on this while the Brazilian federation (!) takes the moral high ground, and we are giving the media a ton of ammunition in how slow we are to comment on this. Leaving aside the moral argument and the severity of the allegations, it's not a good look.

 

[moses]

I am not sure we are talking about stats here. It has nothing to do with this case. Antony’s guilt cant be determined by how stats are in domestic violence case. They will be decided on the merits of the evidence present. And the ones we have in this case are allegations and bunch of photos and whatsapp snapshots. Not a single one proves anything. Atleast in Greenwood case, you had audio which damaged his reputation and he was charged for various serious offences. With what we know from the news article, i will be surprised if Antony is even charged with anything.

At present moment we dont know enough, and whatever we do know, points in favour of Antony. You cant act against anyone with the level of proof that is presented just because the stats on
domestic violence is disturbing to read.

So although the stats are bad and reporting and conviction rates are incredibly low, we should wait for a judge as the sole arbitration, to protect the players.

As it stands I bear no ill feeling towards Antony and if these allegations are false then hell be fine. Suspended with pay pending more info is not that harsh. And it's not done lightly Id imagine. But time will tell.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Agree. It is not United responsibility to decide Antonys guilt. Even though they did inject themselves in the Greenwood case by creating an investigation then announcing they didn't believe him to be guilty.

In a regular workplace, if there were similar allegations made against an employe, that employee would likely be suspended from work.

I worked at a large corporate law firm and that happened a few times.

But it wont be televised in the entire world. Or the victim wont go and give interview to media outlet and it will be trending news

The moment Manutd release statement that Antony is suspended, his reputation is damaged and he will be labelled throughout his career. Its not same for any other profession. It will be kept quite confidential which wasnt the case here. Alleged victim has decided to go public with accusations.

 

[hobbers]

We should just ignore it until a judge comes to a decision? Because of player safety?

Not a judge but certainly should be 'ignored' until the police come to a decision about the evidence they've been given. Sets a horrible precedent otherwise.

 

[pratyush_utd]

So although the stats are bad and reporting and conviction rates are incredibly low, we should wait for a judge as the sole arbitration, to protect the players.

As it stands I bear no ill feeling towards Antony and if these allegations are false then hell be fine. Suspended with pay pending more info is not that harsh. And it's not done lightly Id imagine. But time will tell.

So you want him suspended because the conviction stats in domestic violence are not in his favour?

He will be suspended when he is legally charged which doesn’t mean he is guilty but there is suspicion of guilt at least. Right now there is nothing. It would be borderline harassment to take action against Antony right now

 

[moses]

So you want him suspended because the conviction stats in domestic violence are not in his favour?

He will be suspended when he is legally charged which doesn’t mean he is guilty but there is suspicion of guilt at least. Right now there is nothing. It would be borderline harassment to take action against Antony right now

If charged he should be suspended. Yep.

 

[moses]

Not a judge but certainly should be 'ignored' until the police come to a decision about the evidence they've been given. Sets a horrible precedent otherwise.

Of course. The cops or the club, I've never said otherwise.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

How can Arsenal not be under pressure to drop Partey, who faces way way worse allegations and had some not so good looking evidence in public? Except a few fans, it seems nobody cares there. I can't understand it - either both clubs should be facing pressure to drop the player or both not.

I don't get it either. It's just so maddening to see the level of pressure or, on the opposite case, protection that certain clubs have. You can't afford double standards for this kind of stuff; it has to be the same for everyone.

 

[Plastic Evra]

The media is gathering pace on the story and Brazil axed him. The club has to do something, anything really.

I don't know if suspension is the right move , but suspensions are not a result of a conviction - imprisonment is. Suspending someone under criminal investigation is fairly common practice.

We dithered on Greenwood and are silent on this while the Brazilian federation (!) takes the moral high ground, and we are giving the media a ton of ammunition in how slow we are to comment on this. Leaving aside the moral argument and the severity of the allegations, it's not a good look.

I don't think it is unreasonable for the club not to make a decision on a potential suspension until at least before the next United game.

 

[moses]

I don't think it is unreasonable for the club not to make a decision on a potential suspension until at least before the next United game.

If they are waiting they kind of need to say they are aware and processing or something, in the context of the balls they made over Greenwood and the action the Brazilian FA have taken.
It's a mess, lose lose.

 

[Wibble]

If we start acting on every allegation with level of proof that we have been presented with, then i am afraid no player is safe.

Except the majority of players who don't get accused of DV largely because they don't engage in DV or behaviours that open them up to such accusations of course.

And why do you leap to the assumption that events were invented?

 

[Mingus]

So although the stats are bad and reporting and conviction rates are incredibly low, we should wait for a judge as the sole arbitration, to protect the players.

As it stands I bear no ill feeling towards Antony and if these allegations are false then hell be fine. Suspended with pay pending more info is not that harsh. And it's not done lightly Id imagine. But time will tell.

Given the Orla Sloane/ Mason Mount case, surely an automatic suspension for allegations is unwarranted, especially if the club is aware of the likelihood of possible innocence?.

 

[Laurencio]

But it wont be televised in the entire world. Or the victim wont go and give interview to media outlet and it will be trending news

The moment Manutd release statement that Antony is suspended, his reputation is damaged and he will be labelled throughout his career. Its not same for any other profession. It will be kept quite confidential which wasnt the case here. Alleged victim has decided to go public with accusations.

Nonsense. That depends entirely on how they handle it in the media. They have 4 viable options.

1. Comment that the club and the player are giving their full cooperation to police, and announce work on clear guidelines for handling domestic abuse and violence cases (ala Riley suggested). Player keeps playing, investigation keeps going, man utd did something. Shield him from press for a few months, sit out a few games.

2. Keep him off the field for a few matches (extended time ala Sancho) citing personal reasons, announce guidelines and lead an initiative for handling these types of cases with the premier league and other clubs.

3. Remove him from matchday squads until the investigation is completed.

4. Suspend him.

The idea that they can just keep silent and lean on "Innocent until proven guilty" is not viable and will cause huge issues.

 

[pratyush_utd]

The media is gathering pace on the story and Brazil axed him. The club has to do something, anything really.

I don't know if suspension is the right move , but suspensions are not a result of a conviction - imprisonment is. Suspending someone under criminal investigation is fairly common practice.

We dithered on Greenwood and are silent on this while the Brazilian federation (!) takes the moral high ground, and we are giving the media a ton of ammunition in how slow we are to comment on this. Leaving aside the moral argument and the severity of the allegations, it's not a good look.

Right now we aren’t even at that stage. Allegations have been made and police is ascertaining the validity of the claims. Once police files a case against Antony, then criminal investigation will start. Then we will suspend him most likely depending on the type of charges brought against him.

You can’t suspend people just because someone has made allegations against him/her.

 

[hobbers]

Again it's amazing how Arsenal got away with it.

Fecking 3 alleged victims and out on bail.

 

[moses]

Given the Orla Sloane/ Mason Mount case, surely an automatic suspension for allegations is unwarranted, especially if the club is aware of the likelihood of possible innocence?.

Ah I never said suspended on allegations. That's a no brainer. Just that we shouldn't wait for a verdict.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Except the majority of players who don't get accused of DV largely because they don't engage in DV or behaviours that open them up to such accusations of course.

And why do you leap to the assumption that events were invented?

My initial response was that we can’t and we shouldn’t take action against Antony at the moment. I am not making any assumptions of the guilt, it was hypothetical scenario.

Unless he is charged with anything, we should wait and let the police preliminary investigation determine the validity of the claim.

Once he is charged with DV case, then he will be suspended. But it wont be fair to Antony to punish him at the moment with the level of evidence presented. In Greenwood case there was an awful audio sequence which could be used to justify disciplinary action against him. But on what basis Antony will be suspended?

 

[moses]

Again it's amazing how Arsenal got away with it.

Fecking 3 alleged victims and out on bail.

Yeah, outrageous, but the legal proceedings are only for one I think.

 

[Plastic Evra]

If they are waiting they kind of need to say they are aware and processing or something, in the context of the balls they made over Greenwood and the action the Brazilian FA have taken.
It's a mess, lose lose.

I'm sure United has and will receive requests for comments and will probably say something (even if entirely non committal) within the week.

 

[moses]

My initial response was that we can’t and we shouldn’t take action against Antony at the moment. I am not making any assumptions of the guilt, it was hypothetical scenario.

Unless he is charged with anything, we should wait and let the police preliminary investigation determine the validity of the claim.

You asked why we are under pressure to do anything. The actions of the Brazilian FA and our recent mess surrounding Greenwood has us under pressure. These allegations have been out for months.