To be fair many of us have criticized Woodward heavily this year. I'm one of them.
Apathetic Fanbase
- Thread starter TrueRed79
- Start date
There is not much we can do, its the owners.
If we had a fan ownership model like Ajax, Barca, we would use all our profits not just generate wealth for the vampire Glazers.
If we had a fan ownership model like Ajax, Barca, we would use all our profits not just generate wealth for the vampire Glazers.
I agree. We need to start seriously calling out the Glazers and the board. If we don’t sign at least 4 top players this summer, we have a right to be angry.
I'm not talking specifically about this website you angry moron.
He's going to give Jones & Young their testimonial matches. I am excited already
The problem with the Glazers, and something they'd benefit from too if they fixed it, is having someone who understands football running the football side of things. They've spent a feck tonne on players but we've got feck all value for it.
I don't blame them for the money we've wasted, it's not their job to pick the players. Funnily enough, it's not Woodward's job either. It's just that we're on a shit model that let's the manager do whatever the feck they want and we've signed one shit manager after other. If anything, Woodward refusing to fulfil every wish of our last manager svaed us or we'd be in deeper shit.
The club needs a proper football structure and that'd benefit everyone including the Glazers so I'm not sure why some like to pretend as if they're doing it on purpose. I mean, which owner wants half a billion spent in couple of years with such poor value for the buck?
I don't blame them for the money we've wasted, it's not their job to pick the players. Funnily enough, it's not Woodward's job either. It's just that we're on a shit model that let's the manager do whatever the feck they want and we've signed one shit manager after other. If anything, Woodward refusing to fulfil every wish of our last manager svaed us or we'd be in deeper shit.
The club needs a proper football structure and that'd benefit everyone including the Glazers so I'm not sure why some like to pretend as if they're doing it on purpose. I mean, which owner wants half a billion spent in couple of years with such poor value for the buck?
I dont think the managers have been getting to do whatever they want. It looks far more likely they are managers in name only. At the very least theres some back seat management going on. It would certainly explain a lot of issues. Most notably jose having no idea what to do with players he supposedly brought in. Jose got free reign at inter and won a treble. If he really had that freedom here, I dont think we would have been as bad as we were under him.
Another thread trying to attribute blame to a person or persons after we lose a game. Getting old this now, people need to man up and stop throwing tantrums every time we get beat, by opposition that have the greatest player of all time in the lineup also.
It all started with a horse
Death is coming. Nothing matters.
It doesn't matter to the owners though, that's the point. His main job, in their eyes, is to keep the money rolling in, which he does. I'm sure they'd prefer for us to be successful on the pitch too, but that's not their priority. Success for the Glazers, their personal league title, is to make loads of money. Success for Utd as a football team is like their FA Cup, always nice to get, but nothing worth losing sleep over so long as the main goal is achieved. Nothing will change at board level until Ed stops winning them their main prize.
You’re still talking a load of shite.
Who are you referring to then? Given you’ve already sought to ignore this question.
Examples?
The only effect the Glazer's have had on the clubs transfer activity is by providing the manager with the necessary funds to make player purchases. Beyond that point, the manager takes full responsibility if those acquisitions fail to work out well.
At least tell the truth if you plan to go on a Glazer rant.
Commercial value says hello.
There is a reason Rooney was given that contract despite the sign was there to see for people with level minded.
Similar can be said about Alexis wage, and ercently Martial renewal. Pogba being Pogba. To lesser extend, Joker Lingard. Social media invades dressing room. Cults everywhere, but club shows lack of identify whoever the managers. On commercial front, selling brand, getting sponsor would ensure good revenue. @shaky put it very well.
We already had discussion about how prize money to win the whole thing is just not profitable as maintaining a certain percentage to revenue while wrapping CL qualification. It happens as every other clubs just before our own eyes.
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The glazers, Woodward, Ole, Pogba, Jones, Gomes, None of them care when i have a bad day at work. Why should i care when they do..... Thats how i deal with the frustrations.
Antonio Conte at Chelsea. Rijkaard at Barcelona. Pochettino at Spurs. Mancini at Inter. Even Mourinho at Chelsea. Twice. There’s also a number of relegation threatened clubs who change managers and quickly teach a new way of playing and get on with it. Diego Simeone joined Atletico midway through a season and immediately started winning trophies, including their first La Liga in God knows in only his second full season.
Chelsea are the perfect example for me. Managers are getting a bit of a pass due to a fixation with Ed Woodward on here, but Chelsea are the most successful PL club of the last 10-15 years. This isn’t down to some amazing strategising, deep-rooted club ethos, revamped academy or any other buzzword of the day. They have just gone out and gotten managers who have won things elsewhere before, those managers have come in and seemingly re-energised the players over the course of one pre-season, then gone on to win the league.
I can’t think of anything in how we are structured that has prevented us from having a season like some of the ones Chelsea have had in the last decade since Fergie left. It just hasn’t happened. But it easily could have. Jose could just have easily come in and got the players following him like disciples as he did at Chelsea, added a handful of quality players, as he did at Chelsea twice, and won the league. And if not for us running into a team that achieved the greatest ever PL season, we could have won it last year. And then there would be little of the frustration (to put it mildly) that we have now.
I don’t see any major structural issues that prevent us from getting a manager with a plan, the ability to instil that plan in his squad, getting him a few players that he believes will execute it, and getting on with it. It works for other sides, and I think a new hipster era is over complicating things. Real Madrid have fallen off a bit, but nobody would bet against Zidane adding some quality and them becoming a top side again next year. And if he gets the players he wants and he finishes 5th, nobody will be blaming fecking Florentino Perez either! Unless he refuses to sack Zidane ever. Which he won’t, Zidane will be sacked and they will get Pochettino, he’ll be given some money and be expected to deliver. Only at United the fecking board needs to be changed because we don’t play out from the back well enough, or because a signing doesn’t fulfill their potential. Nobody demands the execs are sacked at any other club UNLESS the accusation is that the board refuse to spend. Even at clubs with magical DoFs, I’ve never seen a campaign to sack a DoF due to underperformance. The manager takes responsibility for the team’s results, and especially for their tactics etc, except on occasions where he says his hands are tied due to lack of funds. Our managers have been gleefully having all sorts of transfer and salary records broken for them, and once the window is closed, they alone must take it from there.
Again, I’m not against a Director as such, I’m all for continuous improvement, but I don’t believe they have the magic wand that is implied, nor do I believe we can be excused for not performing due to the absence of one.
I think the key to the success at Chelsea is the massive investment in the early years which left a strong core behind.
Had fergie retired in 2003 he’d have left prime Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs etc who would have definitely carried on winning things.
Our squad is a mish mash of Fergies worst players left over and overpaid prima donnas. The players we’ve lost since Fergie retired are incredible. Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs, Rooney, RVP. There isn’t one player in our squad who you would consider at their level. Rashford may make it one day but we have supporting cast not the main men at the minute.
Had fergie retired in 2003 he’d have left prime Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Giggs etc who would have definitely carried on winning things.
Our squad is a mish mash of Fergies worst players left over and overpaid prima donnas. The players we’ve lost since Fergie retired are incredible. Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Giggs, Rooney, RVP. There isn’t one player in our squad who you would consider at their level. Rashford may make it one day but we have supporting cast not the main men at the minute.
So it's not all about recent time? A couple years would be a long time in this climate where rules can change.
Let look at the examples:
Conte Chelsea: Didn't play in CL (his second season it's from the horse mouth himself is one of the problem). Team was pretty intact with players who won the league just a season way with addition such as Kante. Conte has his 5 as the back tactic, but the approach is still of a counter attacking team, which had been there. Chelsea had continuously invest throughout the years until Mourinho third season of his second stint. Ever since, problem started and every head coaches pretty much got the same message out about the squad mentality, lack of investment.
Rijkaard Barcelona did plummeted to bottom half of the table even when Rijkard was to start a full season. They had best player in the world that season to carry them form then the next few years before things got Messi, and their supposed support casts were seasoned pros (some later became legends). Some wasted prospects at the time along the way. Their structure (!!!) based on total football which helped. Barcelona is Barcelona when it comes to their share of recruitment of top talents, whoever the head coach.
Pochettino: Finished fifth in his first full season. Tottenham was around there for a while before his time. Tottenham being in top 4th is down to the strength, inconsistency of the other teams. Whenever the supposed on par, finished behind them teams do well, Tottenham fall behind instead of continue to be on par. Net spend and all, huh? See how Klopp changed his tune. Poch may pretty do the same when he's given the money and put under same pressure. You can't compare apple to orange. Wenger is better example in of Poch if I were you. Still the change in playing field clearly see Wenger regress which revionist just tried to forget him!
Mourinho: First stint coming into a team that need an identity which they easily bought into. They made CL semi final, finished second in the league even before he arrived. Big budget with much less inflation to do with. Even Ranieri could do that, and Ranieri was no where within among the top coach. Mourinho got players he wanted. Things turned sour when Abramovic wanted to play FM. Second stint. Reinstall Terry authority and position. Without Mourinho that team still won trophies here and there, and investment was still put in. Mourinho didn't win nothing in his first season back.
Chelsea had a board of football. They're messing about too, but they do recruiting players for good and for bad without managers. The budget played huge role. Now Abramovic oil dollar has less value, they start to drop back to the pack. Sarriball was not here despite he fits buzzword of modern, forward thinking football!
Edit: Tottenham did have DOF position Baldini who reigned when they got Ali, Eriksen.
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Welcome to global capitalism where our rent seeking overlords give absolutely no fecks what we think. And for every passionate protestor, there are 100 foreign fans who would happily buy your seat and treat a boring 0-0 draw as a once in a lifetime experience followed by many purchases from our gift shop. But at least our owners aren’t Arab!
But do we not just run into the same issue if the DOF makes poor choices? Last thing we want is a DOF who won't let the manager get the players he needs to carry out his vision.
Don't really agree with the apathetic description.
Judging by this forum, there is a huge amount of passion and enthusiasm for United.
Yes there is a lot of critisism, the majority of which is well deserved albeit not always directed in the right direction.
I have been a United fan for many decades but only recently found this forum.
I am sometimes amazed at the number of followers and equally amazed at the knowledge of the posters.
If you want apathy then look at those on the pitch and not at the supporters.
Judging by this forum, there is a huge amount of passion and enthusiasm for United.
Yes there is a lot of critisism, the majority of which is well deserved albeit not always directed in the right direction.
I have been a United fan for many decades but only recently found this forum.
I am sometimes amazed at the number of followers and equally amazed at the knowledge of the posters.
If you want apathy then look at those on the pitch and not at the supporters.
Or DOF can side with the manager/ head coach, and their voices being heard against the executive board keep getting into the way? Everything have a pro and con. It won't magical change. However, one thing for certain right now, Woodward influence with free pass to failure is a problem need to be resolved. It's the same the of past 3 failed managers with all 3 came out with same message about being given false promises! And Klopp story about Adult Disney Land is damning.
Thanks for the detailed response, well put. As for the most recent examples, dunno, Hasenhuttl at Southampton this season. They were comfortably the worst team we had faced all season when we played them in December. If we hadn’t run out of games or we started a bit earlier, we probably would have been in a title race ourselves just down to a change in manager.
As for all the other examples, you have provided mitigation for each one, which in summary says that those teams were not all useless when these successful managers came in. I don’t see why that mitigation cannot be applied to United. Moyes took over a team that had just won the league. Van Gaal took over a squad who had won the league the season before last. You list resources some of these teams have, then you must also consider the resources given to our own managers. Van Gaal broke the PL record on Di Maria. He broke the teenage record on Shaw (or perhaps we do have some sort of structure after all and you believe he and Herrera were signed by people who were not the manager! Probably Ed Woodward’s personal signings if you believe the narrative!), then broke it again on Martial. Jose came and broke the world record.
Barcelona did have a structure before Rijkaard, but not one that had won them anything for years. He came in and got it right, and quickly.
I cannot subscribe to some sort of notion that, while a manager could join a team, be given resources and turn things around 2 years ago, but that cannot work now because ‘the game has moved on’. If a manager can inspire, he has a good team of coaches and scouts and knows what he wants to implement, and is given resources - he can do something in a year or 18 months.
And I purposely didn’t mention Ranieri taking Leicester from relegation threatened to the title in less than a year, because it would be called an anomaly (and three years old probably!) but the reality is he came in and inspired and got the most out of his players. All we ask is for a manager to do the same here. We have not gotten the best out of our players for years. Managers have not gotten the best out of players they have bought themselves. Is it too much for them to be expected to do so? To buy those players with a plan of how they will use them, and then do it?
Hopefully Ole turns it around.
The theme is the structure, and culture, which we under SAF was too dependent on him. Gill was also with the club for long time. The change, culture shock for us was too much than just a head coach change, especially when it comes to Moyes' coaching ability and football illiterate Woodward. Then LVG and Mourinho came in, both with their ideas to change the whole club structure. Even Southampton is well known to have a vision that is less independent on a manager doing the heavy lifting.
Everything has their pro and con. The big issue here is Woodward is in position where he is given free pass to football performance yet having influence on the matter!!!
Barcelona board of executive have to go through elections. Pep left Barcelona also part of political issue. Still the board is accounted for failure of both financial and performance, so they can't just talk about one thing and given free pass to failure of another, especially football aspect. I asked in the edit part of my previous post regarding the Barcelona statement signing around election time for that reason. There is a pattern to see. It's different model than ours. You're comparing apple to orange if you just expect head coach can solve all our problem.
Klopp reveal of Adult Disney Land was telling. It's all about the look, but lack serious understanding of situation. Woodward solution is far has been throwing money at issue, but without any vision, both in manager appointment or player recruitment, contract renewal.
What can fans do? We have no power. The green and gold campaign was a complete waste of time. No fan is coming on a white charger to offer the Glazers £5 billion to buy them out. You could say boycott the club, but that wont happen. Outside OT on a match day there are as many tourists buying memorabilia, the lates shirt, eating and drinking etc as there are going to the match. Only option is the Saudis to go for it.
Well the OP is saying protest, but i'm guessing he's not doing that and spending his time criticising other fans on a message board for being apathetic. Which is ironic.
Utd were the richest and biggest club back then. They could outbid anyone for players and the name meant something then as well. In fact have been that way to the 90s until Blackburn with Walker for a while could outbid and then again until Abromovich came. Its changed again since Abu Dhabi. In fact if Fergie had started in 2006 instead of 86 we wouldnt have been nowhere near the side we were or regularity of trophies. He would have probably had the boot by now as well.
If Woodward name kept being mentioned enough, the media would turn their noses and it at least put pressure on him. Just like re Mourinho sacking. He was about to let Mourinho sink with us for the rest of the season like Moyes and LVG. After OGS took over, people started to forget, and Woodward hid and pull the rug under people feet with DOF rumor, questionable contract renewal policy.
Do something, even a small thing would eventually help rather than just giving in.
Very accurate description of the current state of affairs.
I also wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment that nothing will change in the near future. We may snag the odd domestic cup trophy, and people will get their hopes up and start talking as if we've been resurrected. Just as Liverpool fans did for night on thirty years.
Nothing much we can do about it as fans, either.
Cheers, thanks for the information. It puts this current period into a better perspective that while it looks bad, there’s always been a worse time of rebuild in the past.
Fergie got us on the road to success by having a major rebuild. Pallister Bruce Schmeichel Phelan Webb Kanchelskis Hughes McClair Sharp Ince Irwin Parker and Cantona. Along with Giggs progressing and Robbo . All loads better than what we have now
The fans have all the power. Ultimately the Glazers make vast sums of money based on fan engagement, whether that is through ticket sales or sponsorship money based on the size of our fanbase.
The last 6 years have been a total disgrace, yet there hasn't been any sort of protest against the owners. Nothing! Fans of other big clubs across Europe wouldn't put up with this yet we do!
The idea that OT is full of tourists is a complete and utter myth. Yes there are tourists but we have 50000 ticket holders who rush to renew their season tickets every year. They fall for Woodward's false promises every single year without ever looking at the bigger picture which is the decline of the club under the Glazer ownership.
There should be boycotts and mass walkouts each and every game. If fans are still going to games they should wear green and gold. Our situation now is totally different to the green and gold campaign in 2010. Back then we were still winning titles and could attract massive sponsorship money. Now we can't even finish top 4 and a revival of green and gold might make the Glazers think about selling up especially if sponsorship money starts drying up!
And to back you, beside the different playing field when it comes to financial power you already covered, it's the expectation. Nobody expected SAF to make us the most successful team in England. We just tried to win trophies, which FA Cup, UEFA Winner Cup Winner back in the day could be an achievement. Now it's not just win trophies, but being back among the best and put teams in their places, by the sound of many people.
Do it how it's done on Bernabeu. If a player sucks be it performances or attitide just boo the feck out of him until he gets better or is sold.
Also boo Woodward like Bernabeu boos Perez when things are not going well.
If you don't tell them they suck, they'll never get it. Media is just media, whatever they write or say, they just can't get to them.
Also boo Woodward like Bernabeu boos Perez when things are not going well.
If you don't tell them they suck, they'll never get it. Media is just media, whatever they write or say, they just can't get to them.
Ironically it worked with Fellaini but club's officials must have serious perception deficiency if they need whole stadium to tell them this player's simply not good enough.
Too many United fans are worried about looking like top fans to ever boo. They'd rather applaud crap players and managers
I can’t get past what I suspect to be a copious amount of speculation on Redcafe as to what Ed Woodward’s duties include. It currently suits at the moment to imply that he makes every football decision, yet nobody said this of David Gill. We are a club that lends great influence to the manager to structure the club. In that sense there was no ‘culture’ shock with the change to Moyes, the structure was the same, the manager was far worse, and the football team suffered. As it would and should do if it has a poor manager.
I’m not a defender of Woodward per se. I don’t defend him, I just don’t care about him as much as others. He’s a suit. The money is still coming in, and I believe that money will continue to be made available to managers. I couldn’t care less who the exec was (within reason of course) because as a football fan, it’s not a profile that I have particular interest in beyond whether we have any money or not. The notion that he’s the person that says we will sign Mkhitaryan instead of Salah, we’ll sign Eric Bailly because he thinks he’s brilliant and we will not focus on off the ball movement is what I have issue with. Because these problems are what we have issue with after all, and the finger is not being pointed at the manager for it. Nobody blamed Kenyon for Veron and Djemba-Djemba. Nobody blamed David Dein for half of the dross Arsene bought. And nobody praised him for Thierry Henry. I hold Van Gaal accountable for buying Rojo and Darmian. You can say that Woodward is responsible for hiring Van Gaal, but then it should stop there. Not this ‘he makes all the football decisions’. The fact is, United have been a club where the manager shapes the football side of things, and we’ve hired the wrong managers (arguably). Those managers have then been sacked. That’s football as I understand it.
And 3 years ago when we were going after Andrea Berta, nobody forced that on us. It is clear that appointing a DoF is something the club is looking at, from memory, before there became such a clamour from the fans for one. There were enough reports to suggest that Jose was reluctant to work with one, and the very day he was sacked, it was reported again that we want to get one in place soon. I suspect your implication is that this is against the will of Woodward because he wants to make all the football decisions or whatever?
Everyone loves to blame Ed for everything. Ed's been ok recently. He vetoed a number of really dumb thing's Jose wanted to do last Summer and has managed to bring in a manager who understands the club and will take us forward. What he needs to do now is give Ole the freedom and financial backing he needs.
Well thank you. But I don't really fit the criteria.