Are Bruno and Rashford a problem?

Jordi Cruyff 99

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They might be but they are also our best two players
They're doing more harm than good, and saying that they are the club's two best players is like arguing with bald guy has more hair on the back and side of his head. Rashford is an Everton-level player, at best. Nobody was in for Fernandes before he came to Man Utd, and nobody good will be on for him after, either. They are the two most overrated players in the squad.
 

CasaStreets

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If the goal is to create a team that will be tight at the back with two destroyers screening the defence and will look to capitalize on transitional moments with Bruno's creativity and Rashford's ability to attack the open space, thus abandoning - for the most part - the notion of playing expansive football and fully embracing that we'll be a team that will be constantly fighting for top-four and get in the CL positions every 2/3 years, they are just fine. And since the Glazers care for nothing more than CL qualification and the PL will probably be getting an extra spot in the upcoming seasons... they are indeed fine. After all, the wheels came off for the last two managers when they attempted to be a tad more courageous with their plans. That's the mistake that needs to be fixed. Get the best out of the squad, secure CL football, otherwise bring in the next one.
I agreed with you until you turned the conversation toward the Glazer's ambitions. Doing that ignores that the Glazers still fund the second-highest net transfer spend in the league.

If someone wanted to rewire our team around different players + strategy, there has been ample money and a willingness to do that. And I think EtH did want to do that, which is why he went so hard after FdJ, but it didn't work out because FdJ didn't want it and EtH didn't have a good backup plan. So he shored up our midfield with Casemiro and, as you say, looked to play to our strength - Bruno & Rashford on the counter.

This summer, encouraged by last season's results, he doubled down on making us the best transition team: Rashford's new contract, Fernandes made captain, adding Hojlund for more pace, Amrabat (to back up Casemiro), Mount (to back up Eriksen, strangely). But it's not working so far. We're a one-dimensional threat that hasn't added a ball-player capable of breaking down a low block - which gets much more exposed when our best ball-players are injured or can't play full games (Martinez, Shaw, Eriksen).

This could have gone differently. EtH could have decided last season's results were a lucky fluke: Rashford was unlikely to repeat his form and Fernandes is limited in possession. But I think it's extremely hard to blame him for that. If you were a manager who reached two cup finals and a decent league result in your first season, would you completely change the strategy that got you there? I don't think so. So he tried to make some limited upgrades on the same strategy, but it's backfired.

Maybe some injury recoveries and a little luck will save our season and EtH's job. If that happens, I think he will have learned a lesson here. I expect his transfer policy next summer will be to move us sharply away from reliance on Rashford + Bruno, and toward stronger possession players.
 

Shane88

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Rashford is a sulker. He basically admitted as much in that interview with Neville when he was asked about playing right wing. A childish attitude, a selfish player albeit with good physical gifts.

Bruno is from a similar school of sulking. The ultimate football toddler. Tantrum after tantrum, lets his head drop, takes it out on teammates. Christ knows how that man was made captain. A horrible character on the football pitch but again, with good technical gifts.

Relying on them only digs us deeper into the Moments FC crater we've been in for years now.
 

Leftback99

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The problem with them is they are just nowhere near as good as we'd like to think.
Neither would get in a league best XI, 2nd or 3rd string, yet they are supposedly our best players.
 

croadyman

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I can see a similar situation to last round against Palace where both start on bench,however will come straight back into team for the following league game. He needs to give the likes of Hannibal a chance in the next few games up to Newcastle away on Dec 3
 

Redandwhite22

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Contrarian (but objective) take--I think United looked pretty good against City, especially first half, and had chances in second half too. However, City played exceptionally well even for their level, especially Grealish and Foden.

Anyway... maybe this isn't unique insight but could Rashford - Hoijlund be tried in a 3-5-2? Maximizing Rashford's ability--world class in space and striking the ball from any distance, and average in tight situations, when covered coming in from wing. But he's also not a 9 that can hold up play or ability/stamina to press, fortunately Hoijlund looks great on those two things. Give more cover to midfield if you're gonna play Bruno AND Eriksen, who are already very creative, especially with medium-long passes.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I agreed with you until you turned the conversation toward the Glazer's ambitions. Doing that ignores that the Glazers still fund the second-highest net transfer spend in the league.

If someone wanted to rewire our team around different players + strategy, there has been ample money and a willingness to do that. And I think EtH did want to do that, which is why he went so hard after FdJ, but it didn't work out because FdJ didn't want it and EtH didn't have a good backup plan. So he shored up our midfield with Casemiro and, as you say, looked to play to our strength - Bruno & Rashford on the counter.

This summer, encouraged by last season's results, he doubled down on making us the best transition team: Rashford's new contract, Fernandes made captain, adding Hojlund for more pace, Amrabat (to back up Casemiro), Mount (to back up Eriksen, strangely). But it's not working so far. We're a one-dimensional threat that hasn't added a ball-player capable of breaking down a low block - which gets much more exposed when our best ball-players are injured or can't play full games (Martinez, Shaw, Eriksen).

This could have gone differently. EtH could have decided last season's results were a lucky fluke: Rashford was unlikely to repeat his form and Fernandes is limited in possession. But I think it's extremely hard to blame him for that. If you were a manager who reached two cup finals and a decent league result in your first season, would you completely change the strategy that got you there? I don't think so. So he tried to make some limited upgrades on the same strategy, but it's backfired.

Maybe some injury recoveries and a little luck will save our season and EtH's job. If that happens, I think he will have learned a lesson here. I expect his transfer policy next summer will be to move us sharply away from reliance on Rashford + Bruno, and toward stronger possession players.
I'm afraid there's no lesson to be had here. Bruno got a new contract before ETH had even set foot at OT. Rashford, for reasons well-known, would have got the bumper deal no matter who sat at the edge of the bench. Previously, Martial was handed a new and improved contract when Solskjaer was still interim and despite the fact that his previous manager never thought highly of him. A year later, they signed a midfielder for 40 million quid whom the - then, permanent Solskjaer- didn't seem to rate at all. Our fans see the mess we're in and think that the Glazers and their men simply approve the budget and they tell the manager: "Go on, son, let loose". There were leaks from the club, right after ETH's appointment, that he was appointed to evolve the current first team, not revolutionize it. Solskjaer spoke about players who will go because they are not fit to wear the shirt and two months later, he was criticizing the fans for wanting transfers. Trust me, we're going to keep playing Bruno to Rashford ball, with or without ETH.
 

Licha-Vidic

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As I have said severally,
It's either

Bruno leaves or ETH leaves in the next 12 months.

The two can't exist together, because ETH is confused on how to set-up the team because of Bruno inability or ability thereof.

The structure and setup of the team has to change in the next 12 months. It's a MUST. The center will not hold anymore, results and performance have dipped considerably.

Rashford is all his mistakes, he performs on big games. Only current player who has scored in Etihad, Emirates, against Liverpool at home multiple times. Rashford has scored 28 goals against the Premier League 'Big Six'.


Rashford game has refused to grow because of how we tried to setup as a team, 'ball over the top to him'. This is 'un-coachable' style, can not be upgraded or uplifted.

For the sake of the club, we need to shift from the current set-up. This can only be achieved by shipping away Bruno.
 

FerociousCorgis

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until we move these two on will never be able to play a dominating possession style game. That simple. Either will be absent for most of the game or in brunos case be trying to hot potato the ball every moment he touches it trying to make a hollywood pass. Moments FC mixed with at best hoping to become a counter attacking team, which just seems like what a midtable club should aspire to be.
 

CasaStreets

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I'm afraid there's no lesson to be had here. Bruno got a new contract before ETH had even set foot at OT. Rashford, for reasons well-known, would have got the bumper deal no matter who sat at the edge of the bench. Previously, Martial was handed a new and improved contract when Solskjaer was still interim and despite the fact that his previous manager never thought highly of him. A year later, they signed a midfielder for 40 million quid whom the - then, permanent Solskjaer- didn't seem to rate at all. Our fans see the mess we're in and think that the Glazers and their men simply approve the budget and they tell the manager: "Go on, son, let loose". There were leaks from the club, right after ETH's appointment, that he was appointed to evolve the current first team, not revolutionize it. Solskjaer spoke about players who will go because they are not fit to wear the shirt and two months later, he was criticizing the fans for wanting transfers. Trust me, we're going to keep playing Bruno to Rashford ball, with or without ETH.
This is a nice story but fundamentally can't be true if he was trying to sign FdJ, which I think we all know he was.

You've made a decision to write off my points without actually considering whether they make sense and are likely.
 

Ekeke

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The problem is if you're their manager and cant get them to play well. Plenty of top clubs would take them off our hands and do just that if we made them available.
 

JB08

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Maybe the team as a whole is just shite.
 

Jund

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Yes. Unfortunately there's something else... EVERYBODY in this club is a liability. Owners, manager, goalkeeper, defense, midfield, attackers. Everyone is problem here. I don't even trust the cleaning staff anymore.
 

Cheesy

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The problem is if you're their manager and cant get them to play well. Plenty of top clubs would take them off our hands and do just that if we made them available.
Bruno especially feels like the type of player who'd go to Serie A and end up being a key player in driving whichever big side signs him to the title. Has his attitude problems and can be frustrating, but clearly very capable of making a consistent impact when he's on-form. Part of me feels he never quite got into a permanent rhythm again after the Ronaldo signing. Confidence must have been sky-high when he was getting to convert penalties constantly and felt like a real focal point of the club. For a while also felt like one of the few Utd players capable of producing decent form even when the rest of the side was a bit rubbish.
 

statpadder

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Bruno and Rashford fans coming in 3,2,1.

Does anyone else think we’ve been a better team today? Apart from defensive feckups, I think we have been decent going forward
 

LInkash

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Some people in the matchday thread were convinced that because we weren't completely shit in the first 5 minutes, it was proof that we're better without Bruno and Rashford.
 

Ekeke

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Bruno especially feels like the type of player who'd go to Serie A and end up being a key player in driving whichever big side signs him to the title. Has his attitude problems and can be frustrating, but clearly very capable of making a consistent impact when he's on-form. Part of me feels he never quite got into a permanent rhythm again after the Ronaldo signing. Confidence must have been sky-high when he was getting to convert penalties constantly and felt like a real focal point of the club. For a while also felt like one of the few Utd players capable of producing decent form even when the rest of the side was a bit rubbish.
Probably would be a lot better playing in a team with loads of the ball so he gets loads of chances to waste it and do something great with it in equal measure. We havent even tried to play that kind of way since he arrived. Its always been about counter attacks and occasional moments of good play. Since he's been here we've never been a team that controlled the game and gave that aura of composure and confidence that we can constantly maintain pressure on teams.

I'm not saying he's such a good player that we owed that to him. But I suspect his temper and loss of composure leading to him making bad choices and mishitting the ball like against City would be reduced in a game where hes on the City end of things and he could count on the kind of involvement and distribution players like Grealish get.
 

Geistman

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This performance against Newcastle would suggest they might not be the problem we think they are.
 

Swiss_Red89

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Was always laughable to think that they are the problem...The two most productive performers of the last years...But yes, lets replace them with Hannibal and Garnacho/Martial and all will be good.

The cafe loves it's scapegoats.
Rooney, Lukaku, Ibra, Fellaini, Pogba...now Bruno and Rashford.
We need to accept that the problems lay a lot deeper than that.
 

TMDaines

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You’d think people would move on, but there’s still people out there who genuinely took away from tonight’s match that United got worse when these two came on.
 

JB7

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Bruno and Rashford fans coming in 3,2,1.

Does anyone else think we’ve been a better team today? Apart from defensive feckups, I think we have been decent going forward
Yeah agreed, aside from creating absolutely nothing, never looking like scoring or even winning something so much as a header in the attacking areas, we were quite good in attack.
 

redshaw

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Only a problem in that if they don't produce there's nobody else to. Bruno and Rashford have been the most influential, if they're not on form we're back to mid to bottom half performances we had under Ole's first full season start before we got Bruno in Jan. We're devoid of a lot sadly which is the real problem.
 

statpadder

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Yeah agreed, aside from creating absolutely nothing, never looking like scoring or even winning something so much as a header in the attacking areas, we were quite good in attack.
You mean when Bruno and Rashy were on the pitch? Yeah agreed!
 

Champ

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You mean when Bruno and Rashy were on the pitch? Yeah agreed!
Our best chance of the game came when Bruno and Rashford were on the pitch, and it fell to Bruno making a run that no one else did throughout the whole game to that point.

It's plain to see that the two in question are not an issue within the team, the issues run far deeper.
 

statpadder

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We created feck all and conceded 3 goals in the 70 odd minutes they weren't on the pitch you muppet.
We have created feck all and conceded 13 goals in 9 games with them on the pitch you nincompoop.
 

Jam

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And Rashford is to blame for that? I
To be fair everyone is to blame for turn overs of possession, lack of organised pressing and general ball advancement.

You can’t pin 13 goals conceded on Rashford but he absolutely plays a part in why we concede, and chances conceded too.
 

Born2Lose

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We were worse when these two came on. Any semblance of team shape vanished.

It was the usual story with Bruno making careless passes that gave up possession and Rashford doing his trademark "two second shuffle" with the ball before passing it backwards.

Bruno, Rashford and Antony are huge problems, they've all shown themselves to either lose their heads or down tools when things go wrong. You don't win leagues with these kinds of players,
 

redcucumber

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These two are our most senior and established goal scorers/creators (as well as being the most highly paid), and look as bad as the rest of them.
 

neon_badger

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What we know is the whole club is failing, last night was just further confirmation, but blame has to be applied proportionately hence this thread and the Ten Hag threads, they're not being scapegoated they are held to a higher standard and rightly receive more critism as does the manager.
 

spiriticon

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Rashford should be nothing more than an impact sub. He is not starter material for any serious team, but can do a lot of damage off the bench against tired legs.

Bruno is fine starting at 10 if you have 2 really good or experienced players behind him that can control the tempo of the game and more importantly, control HIM. Oh, and he should not be the captain.
 

Champ

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What we know is the whole club is failing, last night was just further confirmation, but blame has to be applied proportionately hence this thread and the Ten Hag threads, they're not being scapegoated they are held to a higher standard and rightly receive more critism as does the manager.
The question posed in the original post was essentially 'are we a better aide without Bruno and Rashford in the team?', which we're obviously not, last night for sure proved that.

To hold those two to a higher standard suggests that you believe they are the best or at least the better players at the club, in which case why would you drop the best/better players?
Especially when we don't have any viable replacements who can step in and perform to the levels those two have shown, and especially when Bruno has been shown to be our hardest working player this season.
 

abkmufc92

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Yep it's just those two and not this lot

Onana
Maguire
Lindelof
Evans
Varane
Martinez
Malacia
Shaw
Dalot
Wan-Bissaka
Reguilon
Mount
Eriksen
Amrabat
Casemiro
McTominay
Martial
Antony
Hojlund
Garnacho
Sancho
 

neon_badger

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The question posed in the original post was essentially 'are we a better aide without Bruno and Rashford in the team?', which we're obviously not, last night for sure proved that.

To hold those two to a higher standard suggests that you believe they are the best or at least the better players at the club, in which case why would you drop the best/better players?
Especially when we don't have any viable replacements who can step in and perform to the levels those two have shown, and especially when Bruno has been shown to be our hardest working player this season.
I would say it's fair to hold them to a higher standard due to their combined minutes at the club, the captaincy, their positions both offer them many opportunities to change games. Last night doesn't exonerate them, nobody is saying they are the singular problem, as I said the whole club is failing. As for replacing them I admit the available options don't look better, but long term I'd want to see them replaced with better signings, but in reality we'll probably sign another Mason Mount