Absolute cods wallop, and shows how reactionary people can be. Italy have played 3 good games of football against 3 average to crap teams, one of which played half an hour with 10 men. But suddenly, that points to wider, systematic biases. Obviously there's money in the English football pyramid which means players values are inflated, but the likes of Kane, Grealish, Mount, Reece James, Foden, Rashford, Trent etc. would walk into any top side in Serie A. English sides are increasingly dominating Europe and they all have a solid chunk of English talent within their sides playing an important role. And besides, English sides would love to buy the likes of Chiesa and Locatelli but a fear of leaving Italy means these big money moves don't happen. It also helps that England is managed by Southgate, a guy who got Middlesbrough relegated and Italy have got Mancini, a PL title winner.
Are English players overrated or is it Southgate ?
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Southgate is the problem here it’s blindingly obvious.
Imagine Bobby Robson or El Tel with these players. Even Hoddle ffs.
We are less than the sum of our parts and that is down to the manager.
Imagine Bobby Robson or El Tel with these players. Even Hoddle ffs.
We are less than the sum of our parts and that is down to the manager.
These threads always come with the overactions. Hardly any Italian player even plays for a top side whilst Serie A teams also get spanked in Europe with all these super Italian players.
I sort of agree with the 2nd bolded bit. You pay an unnecessary premium for our players after one good season in the EPL. look at the prices toured for Rice and Grealish. Its because teams don't need to sell and now the home player rule plus Brexit so English players are now just ridiculous
agreed.
All true
Spot on.
The reaction from England fans makes me laugh. Beating a very average Croatia in the first game was a good result, under pressure but no reason to go overboard. The Scotland result was disappointing but on another day, the Stones chance goes in, Scotland have to play out and they get beat by two or three and everyone is out in the streets signing Three Lions all night.
We're not as good as some think we are or as bad as some others think we are. Other sides look better at the moment, that's obvious, but you don't win a tournament in the group stages. Portugal were a great example of that. I don't see any side that look unbeatable at this stage given what they've been up against.
We certainly have the players but I question whether Southgate is the man to get the best out of them. Too conservative for me, although to be absolutely fair, navigating the group stage is tricky with the Scotland game middle of the three. The format lends itself to being conservative to make sure you get through. Clearly, in the knockout stages that has to change. It's now or never for him. We have a generation of talent similar (perhaps better in terms of depth) than the last "golden generation" (a terrible phrase, but there you go) and we can't waste it.
The question the OP posed is false equivalence. England's average to poor showing so far in the tournament isn't because the English players are "over-rated", but it could affect how you expect them to perform. That's your expectation, it hasn't made them play any better or worse. The manager of the team, however, very much does affect how they play.
Yes some English players are over-rated ..by some. The assumption here is we are talking about the the "English" view which is supposed based on the media/amazing and totally non-biased pundits we are blessed with on our football coverage/twitter etc. Others are more grounded in their expectations.
The evidence available would indicate that England does have a lot of talent to draw from currently. As mentioned previously Premier league teams (who have a good contingent of English players) have been doing very well in europe recently (with 5 out of 8 of the last finalists in the CL and 3 of the last 6 EL finalists). England also have players that are very high up statistical ranking charts for the top leagues in Europe. There are CL, EL, World club cup and youth World Cup winners in the team.
The evidence available would also suggest the manager isn't the greatest (based on his managerial CV prior to taking over as England boss).
Watching England so far has been frustrating for many (including myself) as Southgate seems to emulate the worst parts of Ole. Playing 2 "CDM"s against teams you can really have a go at when you have so much attacking talent available for the entire 90 mins. Making late subs/not using all 5 you have available when you have so many options sat watching on the sideline etc. Playing his favourites despite them being out of form/seemingly unfit or carrying injuries.
Personally I think England's problem is as much in the players heads as it is the poor management (as has been the case for decades now). Ability wise I'd say England have enough to win a knock out competition, but I'd say the issue is the pressure/expectation levels and tendency the mainstream media/social media has to jump all over them when they fail or don't perform to levels we are accustomed to (that the players achieve in club competition) that has always hindered our players. The hype and excitement prior to tournaments (this could be where the collective "over-rating" does actually make a negative difference) makes this criticism all the more pronounced and obvious.
TL;DR - Southgate.
Yes some English players are over-rated ..by some. The assumption here is we are talking about the the "English" view which is supposed based on the media/amazing and totally non-biased pundits we are blessed with on our football coverage/twitter etc. Others are more grounded in their expectations.
The evidence available would indicate that England does have a lot of talent to draw from currently. As mentioned previously Premier league teams (who have a good contingent of English players) have been doing very well in europe recently (with 5 out of 8 of the last finalists in the CL and 3 of the last 6 EL finalists). England also have players that are very high up statistical ranking charts for the top leagues in Europe. There are CL, EL, World club cup and youth World Cup winners in the team.
The evidence available would also suggest the manager isn't the greatest (based on his managerial CV prior to taking over as England boss).
Watching England so far has been frustrating for many (including myself) as Southgate seems to emulate the worst parts of Ole. Playing 2 "CDM"s against teams you can really have a go at when you have so much attacking talent available for the entire 90 mins. Making late subs/not using all 5 you have available when you have so many options sat watching on the sideline etc. Playing his favourites despite them being out of form/seemingly unfit or carrying injuries.
Personally I think England's problem is as much in the players heads as it is the poor management (as has been the case for decades now). Ability wise I'd say England have enough to win a knock out competition, but I'd say the issue is the pressure/expectation levels and tendency the mainstream media/social media has to jump all over them when they fail or don't perform to levels we are accustomed to (that the players achieve in club competition) that has always hindered our players. The hype and excitement prior to tournaments (this could be where the collective "over-rating" does actually make a negative difference) makes this criticism all the more pronounced and obvious.
TL;DR - Southgate.
I think you have a paoint there. It is fascinating how often teams with much focus about them tend to underperform.
Southgate clearly didn't watch any Champions League football last season. Guy doesn't even know who Sancho and Bellingham are. Obvious from his team selections.
Rice & Phillips again 
Saka over Sancho, yeah it’s erm, just possibly Southgate.
Saka over Sancho, yeah it’s erm, just possibly Southgate.
Short term, getting knocked out in the last 16 would be a disaster for England.
But if meant FA sacked him, I'd suggest worth a little pain to see if they can get a decent manager in for the WC.
I remember in 2006 when everyone was talking about A Cole, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Neville , Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney, Owen, Beckham etc and convinced everyone about Englands prospects and with good reasons when you look at the goals those players score season after season.
The only problem was that French team was better in every department except Maybe Ferdinand for Gallas but Thuram was definitely better than Terry .
Italy had a better midfield and a better defence
Brazil had a better midfield, better fullbacks and better strikers.
Just imagine thinking your team was supposed to get something in a tournament where they were competing against Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo, Robinho, Carlos, Cafu.
The only problem was that French team was better in every department except Maybe Ferdinand for Gallas but Thuram was definitely better than Terry .
Italy had a better midfield and a better defence
Brazil had a better midfield, better fullbacks and better strikers.
Just imagine thinking your team was supposed to get something in a tournament where they were competing against Adriano, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo, Robinho, Carlos, Cafu.
Yeah the Brazil team was way better but that is not the issue this England team now is the most expensive team in world football and they look ok at best.
Anyway they went through without conceding so that’s good but with France,Portugal or Germany coming next it has to be better. I’m hoping England step up when they face a better side
Also hope England step up in competition. Germany, France and Italy looks better this far. Even Belgium. England press hype their teams in this competitions too hard, in other countries the media respect the team more and the players doesnt act like they are famous stars figuring in the papers.
I'm all for a bit of Gareth bashing after his limp choices for the Scotland game. But Saka was an excellent selection and is a super young player. His decision making for his age is amazing. For me I think Sancho could have done Sterling's role and not given the ball away so much. Sterling scored and is a good player but I think Sancho will outclass him and probably already does.Rice & Phillips again
Saka over Sancho, yeah it’s erm, just possibly Southgate.
I feel Sancho is overhyped. We all call for him to be played, but whenever I have watched him he has not been that good.
The money Dortmund ask is insane.
Southgate do not rate him above other good players and he might be justified.
The money Dortmund ask is insane.
Southgate do not rate him above other good players and he might be justified.
This isn’t a hate on Ole or turning it about him as he is miles above Southgate IMO. But it reminds me of us playing Fred/mctominay against bottom half sides. Southgate had a free run at tonight with England being through he should of went out to smash themRice & Phillips again
Saka over Sancho, yeah it’s erm, just possibly Southgate.
Southgate has very good alternatives, Ole not so much and it's therefore more understandable.
I agree, hence why I said Ole is miles better. Our squad depth is decent at best. England’s squad is full of top quality. I was just saying it seems the same. With us in them games we can drop say Mctominay or Fred and just have Pogba and Bruno. Like Southgate he is playing 2 DM in games that they are not needed.
As I said it’s ok against say France were England will be dominated in midfield by Pogba/Kante but tonight especially being already through it should of been a all out attack.
Either way I haven’t been impressed by England(mainly Southgate) but 3 clean sheet and easily out of the group I guess you can’t complain. I just feel in the Scotland game and 2nd half tonight there has been nothing created which is madness for the attacking quality England possess.
England are always “overrated” until they go out then the same people accuse them of underperforming
We’ve reached the knockouts expending very little energy and have several top class players who will be feeling as fresh as a daisy.
We’ve reached the knockouts expending very little energy and have several top class players who will be feeling as fresh as a daisy.
He's got his favourites he doesn't dare drop, then at the same time he's throwing the rest of the squad at the wall and seeing what sticks.
The main thing is the midfield is not working. We are playing two defensive players in the group stages, we haven't conceded a goal but we have only managed two against opposition we should be walking over. I understood it against Croatia but against Scotland and Czech Republic?Rice should be playing that role on his own and allowing an extra attacker in the team, Grealish should be starting every game.
He is also backing himself into a corner with Sterling who has been poor yet is the only goalscorer so far.
The main thing is the midfield is not working. We are playing two defensive players in the group stages, we haven't conceded a goal but we have only managed two against opposition we should be walking over. I understood it against Croatia but against Scotland and Czech Republic?Rice should be playing that role on his own and allowing an extra attacker in the team, Grealish should be starting every game.
He is also backing himself into a corner with Sterling who has been poor yet is the only goalscorer so far.
How anyone thought we would have a chance of winning it with these players absolutely baffled me before the tournament, Southgate is doing a fantastic job so far.
Exactly. People have such short memories. Who can forget that only half a decade ago, Southgate led England to a quarter final win over the mighty Sweden. If that wasn't enough to secure his job for the forseeable future, then nothing will be.
I'm sure but what is wrong with these players?
2/3 top RB, both in CL final
CB who won PL and CL final
Maguire is a very good CB
The PL best LB
Declan Rice has been good
Henderson has won PL/CL and is crucial to how Liverpool play, press
Grealish, Foden, Saka, Rashy, Sterling, Sancho are some of the best players in Europe let alone just England.
Kane is one of the best Strikers in Europe.
How are you underplaying how good these players are?
You may well be right over time but right now I'm not so sure.
There is a reason that Sterling scores so many tap ins. His movement in the box is excellent. I have no idea if this is taught or instinct but he has it for sure.
I don't think Sancho scores the goal that Sterling got last night. It looks a simple goal but watch his movement.
Sterling can be super frustrating but right now he deserves his place in the team. To drop him for Sancho would be madness right now. Maybe by the next tournament he will have taken Sterling's place but he has a lot to prove. Being in the right place at the right time in an unfamiliar enviroment (International team) is a very valuable thing.
Absolutely, but it does not say much really.
If you were France, Germany, Italy - yes that would be very good. But England have done that in the past and still got knocked out in the next round.
With France, Germany, Italy you know that these teams can switch it on and fight. With England the experience is that they fail when they are under pressure. (Nothing we have seen thus far, suggests otherwise.)
Yep, completely agree. Rice should be holding, especially with Stones and Maguire behind him who are both more than capable on the ball. It’s virtually a back three at that point.
That way you can keep all his favourite selections and give Grealish a free role which is an absolute necessity at this point because we are desperate for a player who can drag defenders out of position and break the lines and give the rest of the attackers the time and space they need.
Currently we are just camped in the oppositions half, making the pitch half the size with a static midfield rotating the ball from left to right and back to our defenders.
Are you trolling?
We had a favorable group and only scored 2 goals, registering a grand total of 6 shots on target.
We have a more evenly spread attacking options then we did during our 'golden generation' - we should creating far more than we have done. Yet we chose to play two CDM against Scotland and Czech.
2006 WC
Rooney ----------------------------------- Kane
Owen -------------------------------------- Sterling
Beckham -------------------------------- Sancho
Joe Cole ------------ Vs -------------- Grealish
Lampard --------------------------------- Mount
Gerrard ------------------------------------ Foden
Crouch ------------------------------------ Calvin-Lewin
Lennon ------------------------------------ Rashford
Walcott ------------------------------------ Saka
Forget about winning it, progressing past the last 16 would be nice, though it looks unlikely.
Would you still want to play this way against likely to be Germany or Portugal in the next game?
Southgate is definitely keeping 2 more defensively minded midfielders if we face them.
First of all england didn't play Liverpool type formation to utilise Henderson in that way. Their front three is like rabid dogs in pressing and midfield just the same with higher up fullbacks. Kane and pressing good luck with that.
I don't think Southgate is overrated.
That team is one of the best with midfield and defense. Attack also good especially with Beckham,Gerrard Lampard Joe cole and Rooney. They played really well against Portugal even with ten men after Rooney red. It's just unfortunate to get eliminated in penalties.
England are overated as a team and as individuals. I dont see Mount being that good, if he was playing for Norwich and not good looking, I dont think he'd be playing. Southgate seems to be picking the next big thing - and then they dont become the next big thing. It'll all end in tears, Southgate fecks up yet another Euro campaign for England.............
So just because England don't play Liverpool style makes the player crap? I must have mistaken the fact that every other player plays for Liverpool.
Southgate has some of the most talented players to chose from yet continues to be blinded with his selections.
Grealish has more impact than what Mount had in 2 games
Saka had more impact than Foden has had for England.
It is clear the players are very good and the manager is not very good.
To be honest Henderson was just non entity and Liverpool were ready to sell him before Klopp arrived. That Liverpool midfield consisting fabinho wijnaldum Henderson just worked hard alongside their forward line with two fullbacks.With kane england will not able to defend from the front.
Any one say grealish had better game than mount just didn't see previous two matches. Apart from deflected assist grealish was not even best creator for england in this match.Maguire and Shaw did more than grealish in creative department says it all. Nothing suggests he will deserve to play more than mount.
I am sure you are aware that players can improve? Henderson is a very functional midfielder.
To the contrary actually, anyone watching clearly realised that England look better with Grealish over Mount in the CAM position.
Leave it about Henderson it's not easy to play like Liverpool do. We don't have players like mane salah firminho to press from the front. Henderson alone not Liverpool especially we have kane upfront who is slow and ponderous to even think about play that way.
You can see the difference in xg difference with England failed to create less chances and allowed opponents to score more chances.
I can say it's great if chances created were bigger even you add two fantastic chances created by Shaw and Maguire yet england are lesser in chances created department with grealish says it all compared to previous two outings.
Infact Czechs were created better goalscoring opportunities yesterday.
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Hoddle did very well as England manager. Probably the last time England looked like the sum of its parts or better.
Don’t get me wrong we have a good talent pool of attacking options but no team with central midfield options of Rice, Phillips, Henderson and a 17 year old Bellingham is winning a tournament.
This lack of quality midfield options stops us playing fast, attacking football which everybody wants to see, every great attacking team throughout history has had a brilliant midfield to begin and sustain attacks, attacking players can only do so much without that, no matter how talented they are, Messi & his fellow Argentine forwards over the last 10/15 years will tell you the same thing.
Southgate is getting stick for playing 2 ‘defensive’ midfielders but if you take one out and put Foden/Grealish/Mount in there a top team would go through us, therefore this pragmatic approach we are currently seeing is the only way we go deep into this tournament. Southgate has it absolutely spot on.
Do not compare the 2006 world cup players with this bunch, it’s not even remotely close.
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That's absolute nonsense actually.
Portugal midfield that won in 2016 was William Carvalho, Renato Sanchez, Arien Silva, Jao Mario.. So dont say this midfield cannot win a tournament.
Just because one aspect of the field is somewhat weak doesn't mean the team doesnt have a chance of winning a tournament, anything can happen especially if you have players that can produce magic upfront.
England have that in abundance, any one of the front 4 can produce magic and will go even further to say any of the 4 subs that come on can produce it too.
Name me another team that has 4 attacking subs that can change a team?
What kind of football did they play?
Defensive, exactly the same way we have to if we are to do well and they only won one game in 90 minutes against Wales.
These are good players but apart from Kane, would you call the rest world-class? They are good but not great players. And even Kane is underperforming now.