I agree , not saying its undeserved , i said its the weakest WC winner in the WC history .
Argentina NT | WC Discussion
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I agree , not saying its undeserved , i said its the weakest WC winner in the WC history .
you didn’t watch too many World Cups, did you? Argentina was a lot better than all the teams they faced and had moments of brilliant football. Netherlands and France should’ve lost in regular time, it’s miracle they’ve made it to Extra Time
Another thing of this so called weak team. In one year they defeated the American, the Euros and the World champions. All of them in finals. Super weak.
Fair enough, personally I disagree, I think the way they controlled the games was incredible.
as if you have watched all the world cups since the start and could exactly tell that they are the weakest
Its a miracle they made it to extra time ?? You should be thanking coward van Gaal , the moment Netherlands scored 2-2 Argentina was almost dead . If van Gaal didn't switch back to cowardly defending , the outcome had been different .
Netherlands attacked Argentina in a desperate way for 15’ and miraculously worked for them, they got back to reality and Argentina could have and should have beat them in ET
Italy in 2006 pretty much shithoused their way to glory and are an inferior champion I'd argue.
And also harsh on Argentina. Shock losses happen even to the best of teams. Netherlands are a tough team to break down with how they setup and France are holders and amongst the favourites going into the tournament. You talk about Ref's help but let's not forget France were given two penalties in the final.
One of them a practical carbon copy of the "soft" one awarded to Argentina that people are still crying about.
I don't get how it's much of an advantage to Argentina if the referee awards a near identical one to their opponent in the second half.
I think both were penalties personally.
I also think the one vs Croatia was too , even the Netherlands one (which was the softest IMO) is still a penalty.
He makes contact with his standing foot after mistiming the challenge.
People are trying to wish corruption into existence.
What were the football arguments that the Netherlands presented to make you believe that? Constantly crossing the ball praying that Weghorst or De Jong will win headers? In the 2nd OT Argentina had at least 4 chances to finish the game, but we couldn't score.
Game was easlily managed by Argentina until Weghorst's first header.
Argentina didn't win every game in the World Cup but they were probably the only team that was superior to their opponent in every game.
They lost their cool pretty easily after conceding goals out of nowhere which made some games much closer than they should've been.
They lost their cool pretty easily after conceding goals out of nowhere which made some games much closer than they should've been.
Deschamps did some smart subs and France completely played you of the park the last 15 minutes of the match. You could have easily lost in the final seconds. Yes you where dominant most of the match but you almost losing wasn't due to bad luck or anything.
It was down to Scaloni not taking off Otamendi for Licha.
If that sub happened it would have been a 2-0.
That definitely had a impact as well
It would have stopped both goals.
The first Otamendi is 35 and just doesn't have the legs with pace in behind to stop it, nevermind in the 78th minute against really physically strong and pacey players.
Licha is 24 he's quick at covering ground and he would have just stopped Muani getting across him. I'd argue he would show him down the line or just not allow that run in the first place. That takes away the penalty.
I can understand Otamendi being on the pitch to deal with a player like Giroud, who offers you someting else, but balls on the floor which is what Muani and Mbappe are better with, you bring on Licha.
Secondly the give and go Mbappe did for the second, Licha would have battled Mbappe in the air winning it, or knocking him off balance / tracking the run to not allow that shot across like he did.
I don't think France were "Brilliant" in the last 10 minutes (which they were to get back in) I think Scaloni didn't take off 35 year old defenders that have played literally every minute of most games.
At some point Licha needed to come on, 70 minutes on if you watch that game you can see how lethargic Otamendi looks.
Side note, Muani could have passed to Mbappe for a tap in when the wonder save happened in the 123' so fine margins and all that
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But that doesn't change that France getting back into the game had nothing to do with luck, which was what another posted implied.
I honestly feel like Messi retiring isn't the end for Argentina, having the right system means that the team will perform.
Argentina has good defenders coming through, a world class midfield that's very young, a top striker and a very good winger too that are all around the age of 18-23.
The right system and I think semi finals are expected at least.
Yeah... that didn't happen.
They could have lost the final, that much is true. It would have been unfair if they had, but that's football for you. But if luck had little to do with France getting back into the game, the same can be said about Deschamps. In fact, the only person who came close to stealing the game for France was Mbappé.
After their defeat in the opening game, Scaloni worked hard on his tactics/selections to the point where Argentina looked like genuine contenders in the knockouts. The only glitch in the system, throughout the tournament, remained Scaloni's tendency to drop into a low block very early (with 20–30 minutes to play) to see out games. It clearly didn't suit a team that thrived on energy and aggression off the ball. To cap it off, in the final he brought off Di Maria in the 64th minute while the latter was tearing Koundé a new one, and his threat on the left was drawing Varane wide, thus creating huge gaps in the middle for the French defence and not allowing Hernandez to play higher on the pitch.
Deschamps did nothing to address these issues. It's really no surprise, since he's always been a manager who usually reacts to the scoreline, not to what happens in the game. The yards the French won on the pitch were not gained, but were gifted to them by Scaloni. Even so, when we get down to brass tacks, how effective was his second pair of changes, really? The truth is, as much as his first couple of subs (in the first half)... not much. A brain fart by Otamendi offered them the chance to score on their first attempt on target, and then, Mbappé had to basically position himself horizontally to the ground to find a sublime, world-class finish.
People keep saying how Argentina could have lost the final, if that shot in the 123rd minute had gone in. We should also put into context that this was also the only true big chance France created in a game they never led, but were behind instead for most of its duration.
In fact, it was Scaloni's change that turned the tide to Argentina's favour again in ET. People may laugh at Lautaro's misses, but his presence and movement helped a lot in keeping France in check when they were looking like they could turn the whole game around.
We will have the best squad since 2006 IMO. And there are always players coming from nowhere.
I am not going with further details here because I have to see their squad and performances for the next Sudamericano Under 20 in January, but from the last one in 2019, players like Thiago Almada, Fausto Vera, Anibal Moreno and Leonardo Balerdi could be good options for future squads, setting aside Julian Alvarez or Enzo Fernandez for the future.
Of course the same can be said for other countries, and while Scaloni maximised the potential of his players, let's see for other countries, because it's doubtful Brazil won't have better players in the future, that Germany will flop a third time on the group stage and so on.
Other teams haven't just won the World Cup though.
MacAllister and Enzo have experience bossing the midfield which is where you win most games, and Alvarez at the top.
Having that experience to go to a final and win it I think will be huge for Argentina.
I wouldn't bet against them winning Copa America in 2024 with Messi either.
I think personally Messi will retire before the WC but he will still play a part in the Copa.
The first goal is on Otamendi and second one on Romero.
First one, he had enough time and space to clear it to stands and he waited and tried a pass instead of clearing to side. Typical Otamendi brainfart albeit having a brilliant tournament.
Second one , you know you are keeping a low block and you cannot leave Thuram free like that. Stay close to him especially given there was no one else on the box . If Romero was on Thuram that reverse pass isn't happening.
Lastly, Scaloni. You take off Di Maria (granted he wasn't fit ) but you are basically inviting the right back to join the attack. Acuna is good but not good enough to pose an attacking threat constantly. Licha and Parades should have come on after Di Maria.
You tighten the midfield and defence, France isn't getting past them especially with Giroud subbed off.
Scaloni has been making this mistakes for some time. Strange he hasn't learnt how to see out games. It's not that he doesn't have the players.
Anyways , game is won and all good but they made it hard for themselves. It should have been a comfortable 2-0 victory and probably against the best team in the world.
I also don't get this Mbappe hype either. Dude didn't touch the ball until the penalty . Yes, the second goal was world class but he couldn't influence the game at all. Thanks to England as they showed the blue print to handle Mbappe.
How exactly is it weakest ? France had Poland. Morocco, England. Argentina had Australia, NL and Croatia. Both had a similar path.
2002 -
Germany had US, Paraguay and Korea
Brazil had Belgium, Turkey and
England
2006 - Italy(winners) had Australia, Ukraine and Germany.
2010 - NL had Slovakia, Brazil and Uruguay.
Point is, you don't always get the top 2 teams or the best 2 teams in the final. That's the beauty of the game.
Won't mean nothing in 2026. It meant nothing for Argentina players in 2022, the same for the others. People overthink too much, it's a short group stage competition and then decided on knockouts, beside needing your top players to perform you need a coach who maximises the potential of their players to keep going.
Questionable penalties. Okay mate, I stop right there. Thought I was on to a healthy discussion.
There's a bunch of saltiness / sour grapes around the Argentina victory so it's hard to get a balanced discussion at the moment.
The idea of Argentinian being undeserving champion is absurd, they made france(the consent best team in the world by most folk) look decidedly sub par for most of the final , they did the same against a very good Croatia team that had gone on head to head against Brazil and tough to crack Netherlands team.
Are they the best team to win it? Probably not when you consider teams like the 19070 brazil,1974 Germany,1982 italy and 1998 france , 2006 italy and 2010 spain exist but if they were the worst what does that say about the likes of france for fecks sake.
Also I have a hunch that this will be regarded much more highly dependent on how several of their youth talent develops down the line.
Are they the best team to win it? Probably not when you consider teams like the 19070 brazil,1974 Germany,1982 italy and 1998 france , 2006 italy and 2010 spain exist but if they were the worst what does that say about the likes of france for fecks sake.
Also I have a hunch that this will be regarded much more highly dependent on how several of their youth talent develops down the line.
Scalonis subs invited France back in. Acuna was awful and he should have put Licha on.
In normal time, yes. He found a good balance again in ET. As he did against the Netherlands. It's no coincidence that in both games Argentina looked strong toward the end of the 30 minutes when, at the beginning of extra time, people were thinking that they would capitulate.
On basis of the full game Argentina fully deserved to win, but they managed to almost lose it against a France team that was absolutely horrible for 70 min. And still they needed penalties to overcome. As far as as tired defenders Varane nearly collapsed at 90 min or so, probably under effects of the virus that was kicking around, so Otamendi staying in wasnt nearly as bad. The whole french backline looked very slow in the final. They couldn't keep up at all.
Things were aligned for Argentina like Croatia squeaking by Brazil and Messi playing some of his best determined football in years, but they were not a dominant team. Kudos to their midfield, I didn't rate them before the WC.
Hard to say, what would the current team have achieved if you took Messi out? They are a good team, but without Messi, I'm not sure they are anything special.
Right now yes, we are talking about 2026 though
If you're arguing that they were not a perfect side, then i agree. But, honestly, who gives a damn? Take a look at their teams in 1998, 2002 & 2006, they were oozing with quality. So, what? This one brought the trophy to Buenos Aires. The French were not horrible by accident. Their opponents made them look bad by winning the tactical battle.
Nothing was aligned for them. Losing the first game meant that they had to play not just 4, but 6 finals with no tomorrow. You can't go all the way, if you don't have it in you to stand up and be counted. When it mattered, they delivered. They were so bad against Saudi Arabia and they looked so stressed against Mexico, it made me believe that it would be nothing sort of a miracle, if they reached the semis. As it proved, they had both the tactics and the mental fortitude to go on and win the freaking thing. It's not their fault Brazil crumbled at the sight of the first obstacle.
What does it really mean, dominant? Play like a Guardiola side? They forced LvG to play with two towers up front and lump cross after cross in the box, they beat Croatia comfortably, and it took a real rarity (a hat-trick in the final) to threaten them in the final game. Yes, their weakness was that they had trouble defending deep in their final third. But, until that moment, they were head and shoulders better than their opponents. Did they need a bit of luck in crucial moments here and there, especially toward the end of games? Of course, they did, that's the nature of the tournament. Name me one WC winner who didn't have the rub of the green when it mattered.
Argentina have been really strong for the last couple of years. Won finalissima easily and in Copa América Brazil team couldn't create much danger. Hard to beat them. Only Saudi Arabia with lots of luck and two miracle goals. Mac Allister in Brighton and Enzo in Benfica were doing great seasons so LoCelso injury + Paredes bad form did not lower their quality. But they needed some matches to know each other. The same for Julian Alvarez, improved in City and just in time replaced Lautaro being in a bad moment.
Morocco and Japan showed that football level is not too far between nations. We are seeing overvalued countries like Spain, Germany, crash against undervalued countries. I think people undervalued Argentina national team thinking it was only Messi and they have very good defense and midfield.
Morocco and Japan showed that football level is not too far between nations. We are seeing overvalued countries like Spain, Germany, crash against undervalued countries. I think people undervalued Argentina national team thinking it was only Messi and they have very good defense and midfield.
This was what impressed me the most about Scalloni. All the games that went to extra time, Argentina took the control back from the team that came back. It happened in the dutch game and France games.
Some people in the last years have the tendency to undervalue Argentina because there is the Messi factor and all the other players look well bellow his level, which is fine. The other factor after 2018 they were looked with suspicion, even winning Copa America everyone was "Yeah ok but the European sides have won the last 4".
Then in the Finalissima against Italy everyone was saying " Ok a glorified friendly". What no one mentions is that no one beated Italy so easily in Europe until that period (ok a couple of weeks after they were well beaten in Germany").
More important than that, there is the perception of current Argentina players aren't so good as they were in the past because beside Messi they only had a near end Di Maria, Otamendi and a couple of guys who aren't protagonists at Real Madrid, Barcelona, even Lautaro was seen as a guy who shines there in a weaker Serie A than in the past.
As someone who follows particularly well Youth Football, particularly the Portugal Youth NT's and Portuguese Clubs in the UEFA Youth League, I have to say this perception without Messi Argentina over the next years is destined to fail is way over the top.
Sure, I don't think it's clear they will have a Messi or Di Maria type of player, but let me say that comparing Portugal vs Argentina between the born in 98 to 2002 age groups (not saying compared with Portugal is decisive) for me the only age group which I think they are clearly inferior to us is the 99 one, and our 2000 maybe has more options in quality but we don't have a prospect on the same level as Julian Alvarez, the rest (98,2001, 2002) would say they have more options on the relation quality/quantity.
Of course they need to be measured with the likes of Brazil, Germany, France and so on, was only using Portugal because I think we normally have been doing a good job over the years on our Youth NT's, the performances of the Senior sides is another matter.
98 - (Romero, Lisandro Martinez, Mac Allister) 99 ( Facundo Medina, Leonardo Balerdi, Esequiel Barco) 2000 (Julian Alvarez, Fausto Vera) 2001 (Enzo Fernandez, Thiago Almada, Alan Varela) 2002 (Carlos Alcaraz, Facundo Farias, Alan Velasco).
Of course we don't know how many of these will reach or perform at the top leagues in Europe sooner or later, and maybe I left other names who are performing better than this, but they can build a more than decent squad for 2026 even without Messi, Otamendi or Di Maria, winning is another matter.
And I am absolutely sure their 2003 or 2004 generation is as good if not better than this ones I mentioned. The death of Argentina was a bit exageratted and people should stop only making conclusions if they play for Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG, City or Liverpool, there is more than that to evaluate a good International side.
Won't be surprised also if in the future instead USA, Netherlands or Portugal clubs we will see more Premier League clubs going to sign players directly there, Brighton is already a good example of a Premier League club who knows how to scout in South America, let's not even forget the historical and cultural ties players from Argentina have to Spanish or Italian Football.
Not only to mention that Alvarez and Enzo Fernandez only left Argentina 5 months ago, it's not that they learned how to play football in 5 months at Europe I would say...
Then in the Finalissima against Italy everyone was saying " Ok a glorified friendly". What no one mentions is that no one beated Italy so easily in Europe until that period (ok a couple of weeks after they were well beaten in Germany").
More important than that, there is the perception of current Argentina players aren't so good as they were in the past because beside Messi they only had a near end Di Maria, Otamendi and a couple of guys who aren't protagonists at Real Madrid, Barcelona, even Lautaro was seen as a guy who shines there in a weaker Serie A than in the past.
As someone who follows particularly well Youth Football, particularly the Portugal Youth NT's and Portuguese Clubs in the UEFA Youth League, I have to say this perception without Messi Argentina over the next years is destined to fail is way over the top.
Sure, I don't think it's clear they will have a Messi or Di Maria type of player, but let me say that comparing Portugal vs Argentina between the born in 98 to 2002 age groups (not saying compared with Portugal is decisive) for me the only age group which I think they are clearly inferior to us is the 99 one, and our 2000 maybe has more options in quality but we don't have a prospect on the same level as Julian Alvarez, the rest (98,2001, 2002) would say they have more options on the relation quality/quantity.
Of course they need to be measured with the likes of Brazil, Germany, France and so on, was only using Portugal because I think we normally have been doing a good job over the years on our Youth NT's, the performances of the Senior sides is another matter.
98 - (Romero, Lisandro Martinez, Mac Allister) 99 ( Facundo Medina, Leonardo Balerdi, Esequiel Barco) 2000 (Julian Alvarez, Fausto Vera) 2001 (Enzo Fernandez, Thiago Almada, Alan Varela) 2002 (Carlos Alcaraz, Facundo Farias, Alan Velasco).
Of course we don't know how many of these will reach or perform at the top leagues in Europe sooner or later, and maybe I left other names who are performing better than this, but they can build a more than decent squad for 2026 even without Messi, Otamendi or Di Maria, winning is another matter.
And I am absolutely sure their 2003 or 2004 generation is as good if not better than this ones I mentioned. The death of Argentina was a bit exageratted and people should stop only making conclusions if they play for Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG, City or Liverpool, there is more than that to evaluate a good International side.
Won't be surprised also if in the future instead USA, Netherlands or Portugal clubs we will see more Premier League clubs going to sign players directly there, Brighton is already a good example of a Premier League club who knows how to scout in South America, let's not even forget the historical and cultural ties players from Argentina have to Spanish or Italian Football.
Not only to mention that Alvarez and Enzo Fernandez only left Argentina 5 months ago, it's not that they learned how to play football in 5 months at Europe I would say...
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So we went from Copa America is a weak tournament to the World Cup is trash! Anything but admit Messi's and Argentina's dominance in the past couple of years. Anything to deny Messi's legacy.
I know it's hard to swallow.
I know it's hard to swallow.
This is a more complete list.
I'm way more excited for the future, clearly no one cares about Argentina's prospects here and they think we are over without Messi.
Wait I thought the finalissima was the name for the Copa final or something now Im confused.