They might not have to play with one. Gavi is so damn good at turning when receiving the ball that he might be able to play the role even at his young age and Olmo has played well there. I'd probably rather go to war in the knockouts with an extra midfielder if I was them than Morata, and I rate that guy more than most on here since his hold up play is often really strong.
Argentina NT
- Thread starter Infordin
- Start date
For the national side sure but at club level it's easily Aguero.
He's the 3rd goalscorer in Argentina's history. And he didn't get picked more often because we had horrendous managers during Agueros prime.
Consdiering his whole carreer and specially at club level, he's still easily the best player that came out from the argentine league after Maradona.
Last thirty years includes the likes of Batistuta, Redondo, Zanetti... no way.
@MassVolto just so you can wrap your head around it: @IFC 1905 is an Independiente fan.
Somehow he gets love from a Racing fan. I guess being a local lad trumps what little time he spent as a poster boy for their bitter rivals.
On topic: it's a very robust Argentina side, not as barnstorming as others I've seen, but has the resilience you need in adversity to make it all the way. I'd have them in the top 5 favourites for sure.
@MassVolto just so you can wrap your head around it: @IFC 1905 is an Independiente fan.
Somehow he gets love from a Racing fan. I guess being a local lad trumps what little time he spent as a poster boy for their bitter rivals.
On topic: it's a very robust Argentina side, not as barnstorming as others I've seen, but has the resilience you need in adversity to make it all the way. I'd have them in the top 5 favourites for sure.
It’s possible, but I see this World Cup being something of an anomaly. Enrique’s Spain play with a high tempo which in Qatar will be so draining, I can definitely see them losing their legs. It’s probably going to be the kind of tournament that the dreadfully boring 2010 Spain would have won with ease.
The conditions will very much be in favour of sides who can conserve their energy best.
At club level Aguero has been better than Batistuta, how is that a discussion? And we were talking about strikers before, what do REdondo and Zanetti have to do with that?
You said Agüero was the best player to come out of Argentina in the last 30 years.
Not striker.
Not measured by league titles.
Best player.
Scroll up, the guy was even asking you about Palacios and you mentioned players like Romero in that exchange. No reason for anyone to trade best player for "most decorated striker at club level" and you could even argue Crespo has a good shout there.
Well every decent modern striker has scored lots of goals at international level. Few actually seem to be able to translate that to the real business of World Cups, where Aguero's 2 goals in 11 games is poor.
If you don't put it in context it may sound bad, but Aguero was a sub for most of the matches and they didn't play him in the best position too.
I try not to let my club allegiance overshadow my interpretation of the game.
Maybe I'm being to fair to Aguero but at his best he was electric.
There is no doubt that Aguero underperformed internationally but international football isn't the barometer of quality in football.
The best club sides of the past decade would smash the best international sides to pieces.
Even the likes of Paul Scholes had underwhelming international careers (due to mismanagement mainly) but nobody uses that against him when comparing to him to the likes of Gerrard and Lampard.
I don't want to be unfair either, but I think a mix of him being very likeable and never making a fuss about his NT status is making you two a bit soft on him.
There's nothing wrong about not being "other than Messi, easily the best Argentinian player since Diego". He isn't, but he is in great company there or thereabouts. Let's not get into caf mode and diss Batistuta or Crespo as a means to prop up Agüero.
Cracking player. I'd argue, like Bochini, he was unfortunate to coexist with a one in a million player that made his most remarkable attributes a bit redundant and thus a bit part player for the bulk of his career. Bochini also had the politics against him, of course, it wasn't just about Diego.
That's because Gerrard and Lampard had underwhelming international careers as well
International football absolutely is a barometer of quality. Yes, in the club game we now have these freakish Frankenstein teams made up of all the world's best players (not the case in the past) but the level of pressure in trying to carry the hopes of a nation in a major tournament is still considerable.
We now have a reversal of the past in the sense that in the old days, even if you played for a top club, not everyone in your team would be an international class player or a regular international. Then when you went to play for your national team, you were obviously surrounded by international class players.
Nowadays, if you play for a top club, you are not only surrounded by international class players but often world class players. Then when you go to your national team, you go down to being surrounded by international class players but not necessarily world class players.
But this does not mean that international football is no longer a barometer of quality because now the challenge is: let's see what you can do when you're not surrounded by world class players in every position on your team. In huge tournaments watched by the entire world. It absolutely is a massive test and should not be downgraded IMO.
To be honest I took it as the the best player since Diego retired. So post mid to late 90s.
So I would still put him up there , and that's not a knock on Crespo.
He was a quality player but I think Aguero at his best was better.
Underwhelming but still better than Scholes.That's because Gerrard and Lampard had underwhelming international careers as well
Like Crespo or Di Maria had better international careers than Aguero but underwhelmed too.
I didn't say it's not A barometer in footballing quality, I mean it's not THE barometer of footballing quality.
It's not like the 60s/ 70s and 80s when the world cup was seen as the pinnacle of football.
Emotionally it still has its place but the quality is elsewhere.
Batigol?
I would say the World Cup is still the pinnacle of football. I will accept that the Champions League has become much more important than the old European Cup but the world cup is still the most coveted prize in the sport by far.
If the quality is so lacking, then why do the great goalscorers of our age score so much less at international level (in terms of GTG ratios)? Why does Messi have only 6 world cup goals and Ronaldo 7, after each has played in four tournaments? Why did England's record goalscorer manage only one world cup goal?
I don't have all the statistics to hand but probably because the attacking coaching is of a lower standard and teams play more conservatively because there is more to lose? I mean Gareth Southgate just reached 2 semi / finals in a row playing absolutely tumescent stuff.
A team like Peps City would destroy the best international sides the majority of times.
The World Cup is the truest and purest test of the game, there are no super teams if your country can’t produce a quality centre back for example, you just have to make do. You can’t buy your problems away.
I don’t necessarily agree on the quality point, it’s just that the quality is more spread out to various teams rather than a few. Mane at Senegal, Lewandowski at Poland, Alaba at Austria, Oblak at Slovenia, Davies at Canada, Bale at Wales, Robertson at Scotland, Modric at Croatia, Diaz at Colombia, Aubameyang at Gabon. You can’t just buy these players.
I never denied that there is quality at that the World Cup , just that the quality of the football is lesser than the quality of European club football.
The late 00s Spanish team was top quality (It didn't hurt what Barca and Real were doing at club level) and would have given any club side of it's time a run for it's money so I'm not saying "International Football is Shit".
It may be the purest etc but it's not (or rarely is) the best football being played these days.
Also occasionally there are some "Super teams" , for example the French team at the last Euros.
Time / Coaching / Financial limitations all play into this as well.
How many great teams full of superstars have we seen fail spectacularly in the last decade (or more in England's case) fail at international level because of poor coaching/ managerial decisions?
Give Pep that French national side for a whole season and they will be unbeatable,unfortunately that's not how it works at international level.
The current Argentine national side has less quality than previous sides but has a better structure and mentality.
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I was replying to this.
So I replied with
"For the national side sure but at club level it's easily Aguero."
So Di Maria has performed better than Aguero internationally and Aguero has out performed Di Maria at club level.
Not that either of them are better or worse than anyone else.
This is a very good point. It's all the same players, it's just that at international level those players are spread out over dozens of teams as opposed to being crammed into a handful of rich franchises.
This is how it used to be with club football as well, but in the superclub era, the giants have hoovered up all the best talent (not just from Europe and South America, but Africa, Asia and everywhere else) and all the other clubs are left with nothing.
You can argue it leads to better quality at the sharp end of the CL, but it's all quite artificial really.
True
But Aguero is overall a better player than Higuaín.
As a much as this is true.
Let's not forget that Bosman ruling destroyed the parity in Football, and benefited the richest teams.
Now we have 5-6 teams concentrating 80% of the best talents in the world, this was completely unthinkable 30-40 years ago.
And the reason City's Pep would obliterate best international sides it's because he has international players from Brazil,Belgium,Spain,Germany,Spain, England, etc
If Pep could only field 3 foreigners, his City could definitely lose against the best international sides.
Bosman ruling made things way easier for the richest teams.
Of course but that's an argument for a different thread.
I'm not saying that it's good or fair , just that when talking about the quality of football on display the World Cup isn't the pinnacle anymore.
That's all cool but over their careers Aguero was the superior player at club level IMO.
If we are using one off matches that resulted in silverware to evidence their superiority I could forward the Aguero goal vs QPR but for me it's about all their performances not just a game here or there.
Thank God you are here to educate me mate.
"Aguero has only managed to score 6 times on the knockout stages while Di Maria is rigth behind him with 5."
So (using your own statement) the guy who never shows up in the champions league has shown up more than the one who always shows up?
I get your logic, it's not rocket science , you are attempting to frame it in a way where Di Maria looks superior ( a UEFA man of the match award in a champions league final) I just disagree with your rationale (Disregarding all of agueros performances /goals which won titles for city against some of the best sides around for nearly a decade).
Di Maria was a last minute equalising Ramos header (from a Modric corner @ 1-0) away from your argument completely falling apart, that's how fragile it is.
You take that extra time performance (Vs exhausted Atleti legs) away and what can you point to at club level that matches Agueros achievements? Some French league titles?
That he was such a vital cog in that side that they won 3 in a row after he left?
Pep didn't even start Aguero in the final so I don't know how that final can be used against him as evidence that he doesnt show up when they need him (he got 13 minutes.).
I'm not saying that Di Maria wasn't great but Aguero was better. (At Club level)
I don't have anything against Di Maria , I actually like him a lot ( and have said on multiple occasions that he was better than Aguero internationally) but you seem to really have a poor opinion of one of the best strikers of the last 20 years.
Maybe most won't agree with me but there is plenty of evidence of Agueros quality out there.
*I don't even care about Aguero because as another poster rightly pointed out he started his career at my biggest rival, I'm just trying to call a spade a spade
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I didn't say it was impressive.
I just thought you made a poor argument.
This was more my point:
"This sums up your logic. You really think a PLAYER WHO CHOKES who only maneged to score one more goal than a PLAYER WHO ALWAYS SHOWS UP is A BAD EXAMPLE TO PROVE ONE PLAYER CHOKES AND THE OTHER DOESNT...."
It was your example, it's not my fault it's a poor one.
I didn't say he wasn't good in that tournament?
Only that if Ramos doesn't score that header you don't have that MOTM award to use as a stick to beat Aguero with?
Because he shone in extra time not during the 90. (As you correctly stated Atletico were at their peak and stifled the game)
Small margins in knockout football.
You are just hyper focused on that Champions League run because without it your argument is significantly weaker.
Yeah an enormous "choker" who scored one of the most famous last minute goals in modern football (Along with another 22 goals (10 assists) in the league since you won't credit him for that either) to win the premier league title.
The "deluded" jibe doesn't make your opinion any stronger or make you seem any more informed.
What point is that?
Didn't Pep lose that final?
I think it's hard to accuse someone of choking a final when they didn't play the majority of it?
How ridiculous would I look if I stated that Di Maria is such a choker that Poch didn't start him vs Real Madrid and they lost 3-1? (With DiMaria playing 8 minutes)
How deluded would you accuse me of being then?
You are the only one trying to downplay either of these guys careers/achievements.
In my (deluded as you call it) opinion Aguero* had a better club career while Di Maria had the better international career.
*Once again Aguero isn't even in my top 100 favorite players of all time. He's means very little to me at all but I'm not going to ignore how good he was at his best.
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Lisandro and Romero are a really nice duo of centerbacks, when you take both age and ability into account. Certainly a stark improvement over the years they had to rely on players like Fazio in defence.
The only question is whether Lisandro will start in Qatar. I think only a strong first half of the season with United would convince Scaloni to drop Otamendi.
The only question is whether Lisandro will start in Qatar. I think only a strong first half of the season with United would convince Scaloni to drop Otamendi.
Agreed that is an excellent central defensive pairing. Really aggressive and good on the ball. Highly mobile. I rate both highly. Madness to think Martínez could not play in favour of fecking Otamendi. Who was crap at his peak, let alone now. I remember an article in the Guardian once, where they described his proclivity for rash tackling as resembling a demented breakdancer.
If German Cano had gone to brazilian football when he was younger, he would be playing for some champions league giant now. I think he is the striker with more goal in the world this year.
I don’t think Romero and Martinez make a particularly good pairing. Both are like 99th percentile in terms of being front footed and seeking out challenges. You need one of those guys and then somebody else who stays home and cleans up behind them.
The thing is that Otamendi also plays exactly like that.
That's some great imagery
I disagree. They'll form an understanding and know when each other are attacking the ball so they dont have to. They can both defend a second ball, not just attack the first one
On paper a 3 might make sense:
----------------Lautaro-------------------------
--------DiMaria------Messi----------------
Acuna-Paredes-DePaul-Molina
----Lisandro-Romero-Foyth----------
and replace 1 or 2 players on form, but a back 5 to be solid with Messi out there makes sense. Romero played centrally for Atalanta often and Foyth has improved quite a bit. Wingbacks aren't special in attack but one of those CBs would be constantly pushing into midfield anyways.
Delighted to be massively pro-Argentina again after the arrival of Lisandro.
These CL comparisons can often be too simplistic. Sometimes clubs like Madrid, Liverpool and Milan have a certain experience / pedigree / aura about them winning the CL that permeates down to the players. Madrid in this decade are a great team but a lot of their success is also down to their culture in the competition rather than just them being "winners". Similarly, at a club like PSG and City that lack that winning experience in the competition, that nervousness or anxiousness also permeates down to the players as well. These factors aren't everything but not irrelevant either.
Argentina is overrated, a really average team as all of South America’s NTs except for Brazil. They are not 90s argentina which was fearsome
Yes, they won Copa America and are undefeated for like 30 games but they suck. Colombia is better
Yeah they beat that amazing Brazilian side on their own turf in the final too but they stink.
You’re having a laugh! Overrated, average teams don’t go unbeaten in 32 games for over 3 years.