Ashling Murphy murder

[Relfy]

While I get that there is a danger incidents like this or if people are discussing things they shouldn't be on social media etc but I can't see what looks like an open and shut murder case collapsing in this country over something like this.

It certainly shouldn't, but surely there must be some element of risk that they cannot find a wholly impartial jury to preside over the case. If that is the case then it *potentially* risks the defence claiming a mistrial, providing he maintains a not guilty plea.

I am sure that the Irish court system does the right thing and convict to the harshest sentence available to the guilty party.

 

[RexHamilton]

Not condoning it at all but it was about 100 people and I think can be explained away as local emotions running high. It's not like it was thousands and thousands outside Store St in Dublin.

As I said, wouldn’t be enough on its own. But could he used as evidence that he won’t receive a fair trial. Add it to the lads on the radio, social media etc and a defence could mount quite a case.

 

[moses]

Apart from the baying mob potentially making a fair trial impossible bit presumably?

The baying mob was the vanguard of middle Ireland. It's maddening, the selective rage. She was pretty and a trad musician, so we valued her life. Nobody knows the name of the middle-aged Mongolian cleaner stabbed in the city last year. It reminds me of the nation mourning the drug related death of a socialite a few years ago, Cathy French I think; and just ignoring one of Europes biggest drug problems in our capital city with people ravaged and dying in filth. It is a tragedy but never mind justice in this case being threatened, the overall idea of justice is at risk if one death is more tragic than another similar death.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The baying mob was the vanguard of middle Ireland. It's maddening, the selective rage. She was pretty and a trad musician, so we valued her life. Nobody knows the name of the middle-aged Mongolian cleaner stabbed in the city last year. It reminds me of the nation mourning the drug related death of a socialite a few years ago, Cathy French I think; and just ignoring one of Europes biggest drug problems in our capital city with people ravaged and dying in filth. It is a tragedy but never mind justice in this case being threatened, the overall idea of justice is at risk if one death is more tragic than another similar death.

I made a similar point earlier.

The radio waves, newspapers and social media in Ireland have been in absolute paroxsyms of self-abasement about male violence against women since this murder. But there wasn’t a peep out of any of them on that topic when two teenage thugs burst a young wan’s eyeball and broke most of the bones in her face during a sustained beating with hurls and knives, just a few weeks back. She was mixed race and from Ballyfermot. So not to worry, eh?

 

[moses]

I made a similar point earlier.

The radio waves, newspapers and social media in Ireland have been in absolute paroxsyms of self-abasement about male violence against women since this murder. But there wasn’t a peep out of any of them on that topic when two teenage thugs burst a young wan’s eyeball and broke most of the bones in her face during a sustained beating with hurls and knives, just a few weeks back. She was mixed race and from Ballyfermot. So not to worry, eh?

Yeah it's sickening, and literally straight from the pages of Manufacturing Consent, over 30 years old at this stage. Your place in the demographic relates to the column inches your death will receive. It's vile.

 

[RexHamilton]

I made a similar point earlier.

The radio waves, newspapers and social media in Ireland have been in absolute paroxsyms of self-abasement about male violence against women since this murder. But there wasn’t a peep out of any of them on that topic when two teenage thugs burst a young wan’s eyeball and broke most of the bones in her face during a sustained beating with hurls and knives, just a few weeks back. She was mixed race and from Ballyfermot. So not to worry, eh?

I don’t think that’s completely fair.

There are a couple of reasons, rightly or wrongly why this has brought such an outcry.

One is that she died. The attack on the girl in Ballyfermot was abhorrent and shouldn’t have happened. But as she’ll survive, it was never going to have the same reaction.

Secondly, where it happened. For middle Ireland, for want of a better phrase, crime is more accepted in bigger cities and Dublin in particular. For most of the country, if something happens in Dublin, we can feel some disconnect and say “that couldn’t happen near us”. When it happens in Offaly, everyone in the country thinks that it could happen near them. Again, I’m not saying it’s right, but in Offaly we’re still talking about a girl that went missing in 1996 and a priest that was murdered in 1985 and Malcolm McArthur. So a crime like this seems different from a crime in Dublin.

I agree that the media barely made any noise about the girl in Ballyfermot and that’s not right. It’s hard to imagine that race didn’t play a part in that. But there was quite a bit on social media. People were outraged and the €200 bail was something I saw complained about a lot.

I also think, to be fair to people, we all make connections. To say people think “not to worry eh” because it’s a mixed race girl from Ballyfermot is harsh. Ashling was a girl a huge amount of Irish people could connect with. She was a primary school teacher, a trad musician and a camogie player. We all know someone who that would remind us of.

I don’t know what the girl in Ballyfermot did for a living or I don’t know her hobbies and interests. But I don’t think that’s because she was mixed race, I think it’s because, luckily, she survived, so we were never going to learn as much about her.

 

[2cents]

I don’t think that’s completely fair.

There are a couple of reasons, rightly or wrongly why this has brought such an outcry.

One is that she died. The attack on the girl in Ballyfermot was abhorrent and shouldn’t have happened. But as she’ll survive, it was never going to have the same reaction.

Secondly, where it happened. For middle Ireland, for want of a better phrase, crime is more accepted in bigger cities and Dublin in particular. For most of the country, if something happens in Dublin, we can feel some disconnect and say “that couldn’t happen near us”. When it happens in Offaly, everyone in the country thinks that it could happen near them. Again, I’m not saying it’s right, but in Offaly we’re still talking about a girl that went missing in 1996 and a priest that was murdered in 1985 and Malcolm McArthur. So a crime like this seems different from a crime in Dublin.

I agree that the media barely made any noise about the girl in Ballyfermot and that’s not right. It’s hard to imagine that race didn’t play a part in that. But there was quite a bit on social media. People were outraged and the €200 bail was something I saw complained about a lot.

I also think, to be fair to people, we all make connections. To say people think “not to worry eh” because it’s a mixed race girl from Ballyfermot is harsh. Ashling was a girl a huge amount of Irish people could connect with. She was a primary school teacher, a trad musician and a camogie player. We all know someone who that would remind us of.

I don’t know what the girl in Ballyfermot did for a living or I don’t know her hobbies and interests. But I don’t think that’s because she was mixed race, I think it’s because, luckily, she survived, so we were never going to learn as much about her.

I think a better example of what @Pogue Mahone is on about may be the stabbing murder last year of Uransetseg Tserendorj by a young member of a very notorious criminal family in the IFSC in Dublin 1.

 

[Shane88]

The feckin radio. I'd say Joe Duffy's in his element.

Irish radio is a special brand of brain-destroying stupidity.

I left a job after two weeks because it was Classic FM from 9-5 every single day. I don't know how they fecking stuck that cnut Niall Boylan and the same 20 songs on loop every day.

 

[Hugh Jass]

What gets at me is they are all angry about the random nature of the attack, yet most violence towards women in ireland occurs in the family home. As one poster on the boards said, women say they are afraid of random attacks, yet have no fear getting married. When like i say most of the violence is in the family home.

The stats from the uk are 89 percent of attacks on women are by someone they know. I think 60 percent of all women murdered in the Uk were by their partner or former partner.

https://www.womensaid.ie/socialnetw...-1-in-2-women-murdered-in-ireland-are-killed/

 

[Hugh Jass]

Irish radio is a special brand of brain-destroying stupidity.

I left a job after two weeks because it was Classic FM from 9-5 every single day. I don't know how they fecking stuck that cnut Niall Boylan and the same 20 songs on loop every day.

the amount of times they play "hold on."

 

[Withnail]

What gets at me is they are all angry about the random nature of the attack, yet most violence towards women in ireland occurs in the family home. As one poster on the boards said, women say they are afraid of random attacks, yet have no fear getting married. When like i say most of the violence is in the family home.

The stats from the uk are 89 percent of attacks on women are by someone they know. I think 60 percent of all women murdered in the Uk were by their partner or former partner.

I think it's a question of fear and what resonates with people. For example, if you're in a loving relationship you're not going to see your spouse as a danger to your life.

However, we all go for walks/runs and the reality is that random attacks just scare people. It may be irrational on the face of it but fear often is. If it moves the conversation on and gets people, especially men, seeing this as an issue, joining the conversation and prompts real action then I'm not really worried about it.

 

[McGrathsipan]

This thread is not really about Ashling anymore is it?

 

[Hugh Jass]

I think it's a question of fear and what resonates with people. For example, if you're in a loving relationship you're not going to see your spouse as a danger to your life.

However, we all go for walks/runs and the reality is that random attacks just scare people. It may be irrational on the face of it but fear often is. If it moves the conversation on and gets people, especially men, seeing this as an issue, joining the conversation and prompts real action then I'm not really worried about it.

I think we have to look at the bigger picture and i apologize for sounding like an anarchist. The economic system needs a population and it can only get it from people marrying and having children. Thus it doesnt matter how abusive a relationship is, they are going to skirt around it and not criticize it.

There was a sociologist called lionel tiger who said if it were anything else, given the domestic violence, murder and divorce rate, it would be banned straight away. But we cannot ban it so we just have to kind of accept it.

I mean if escorting had similar levels of violence whereby one in four escorts were being beaten up, what do you think the authorities would do. Its a rhetorical question.

 

[sullydnl]

I made a similar point earlier.

The radio waves, newspapers and social media in Ireland have been in absolute paroxsyms of self-abasement about male violence against women since this murder. But there wasn’t a peep out of any of them on that topic when two teenage thugs burst a young wan’s eyeball and broke most of the bones in her face during a sustained beating with hurls and knives, just a few weeks back. She was mixed race and from Ballyfermot. So not to worry, eh?

Yeah it's sickening, and literally straight from the pages of Manufacturing Consent, over 30 years old at this stage. Your place in the demographic relates to the column inches your death will receive. It's vile.

Unfortunately it's the way it works the world over and not just in terms of media coverage or public reaction either but also in how crimes are actually investigated.

In true crime coverage people sometimes use the term "the less dead" to describe people whose deaths get less investigation, coverage and care due to their background (people from minority backgrounds, sex workers, substance abusers, etc.). In Irish terms if an immigrant or homeless person is murdered they're "less dead" than a white, middle-class Irish girl. It's very grim.

In this particular case though I think the social media reaction is also heavily influenced by context in terms of it coming relatively shortly after the Sarah Everard case in the UK.

 

[Withnail]

I think we have to look at the bigger picture and i apologize for sounding like an anarchist. The economic system needs a population and it can only get it from people marrying and having children. Thus it doesnt matter how abusive a relationship is, they are going to skirt around it and not criticize it.

There was a sociologist called lionel tiger who said if it were anything else, given the domestic violence, murder and divorce rate, it would be banned straight away. But we cannot ban it so we just have to kind of accept it.

I mean if escorting had similar levels of violence whereby one in four escorts were being beaten up, what do you think the authorities would do. Its a rhetorical question.

I agree we need to look at the bigger picture but it's a bit early and raw for a lot of people and yeah you've lost me there a bit.

Your rhetorical question is also a bit odd. I mean its illegal in most countries, for a start. You could probably have picked any profession and it would work but you've chosen one where the workers are primarily women and one which deals with a higher incidence of violence and sexual abuse than women who aren't escorts and I'd be fairly sure it's more than 1 in 4.

 

[caid]

I think a better example of what @Pogue Mahone is on about may be the stabbing murder last year of Uransetseg Tserendorj by a young member of a very notorious criminal family in the IFSC in Dublin 1.

I think theres an element of straw that broke the camels back. I dont think these incidents passed without comment.
And while the coverage is distasteful i dont think the wider conversation its created is without merit. A lot of it is basic manners that will be obvious to most men who might feel defensive about it but its not to others, and its worth putting it plainly to them. We should definitely seperate it out from this one incident particularly seeing as we have nothing to go on other than speculation and it being incredibly disrespectful to the family

 

[Hugh Jass]

It is strange alright how some crimes get huge coverage and others dont. They were saying this about the Joe O Reilly case a few years back.

 

[Dante]

It is strange alright how some crimes get huge coverage and others dont. They were saying this about the Joe O Reilly case a few years back.

All it takes one well taken photo of the victim looking at their best.

 

[MoskvaRed]

From reading this thread and being outside of Ireland, it seems there’s a lot of echoes of the Sarah Everard case in England last year, including the extended coverage as compared with less native/photogenic victims. Also the same demands about male behaviour which seems out of place. While there’s definitely improvements that need to be made in how young males view woman, I can’t imagine how that kind of improved conditioning is going to solve the problem of someone so messed up that he is going out to commit murder.

 

[sullydnl]

From reading this thread and being outside of Ireland, it seems there’s a lot of echoes of the Sarah Everard case in England last year, including the extended coverage as compared with less native/photogenic victims. Also the same demands about male behaviour which seems out of place. While there’s definitely improvements that need to be made in how young males view woman, I can’t imagine how that kind of improved conditioning is going to solve the problem of someone so messed up that he is going out to commit murder.

The bold is very true.

But a lot of the broader discussion this case has generated is looking beyond murder and at women's safety generally. In other words including assault, rape, stalking, intimidation, harassment and lesser forms of sexual assault. When you broaden it out to that extent then the conversation around attidudes/behaviours/laws makes more sense than in the context of random murders.

For example from a government/legal perspective the conversation has been around things like making stalking a specific offence, making non-fatal strangulation a specific offence, having one lead department for gender-based violence, looking at bail laws, increasing funding for domestic violence supports, increased investment in education programs etc. Some of which was in the pipeline anyway and a lot of which may well have nothing to do with the facts of the Murphy case, but it all gets rolled into the discussion.

 

[Eyepopper]

I had the misfortune of listening to my ma listening to Newstalk last week, I had to leave in case we fell out.

"Hi,

We're here to tell you what your opinion on this topic should be."

[

I spend most of my day in the car, so listened to Newstalk for years, I used enjoy Dunphy and, later Yates, schtick but I had to stop listening to it completely a few years ago.

Switched to podcasts and Audible and I'm far better for it

Oh, honourable mention to this fecking pleb.

Re the whole social media shit, there's a great quote, I can't remember from who, but it relates to Orwell,

"What Orwell failed to predict is that we'd buy the cameras ourselves, and that our biggest fear would be that nobody was watching."

It's all about those Likes, content is key, context can go feck itself.

 

[Shane88]

"Hi,

We're here to tell you what your opinion on this topic should be."

[

What were the instructions for that photoshoot?

"Okay guys, look as cnutish as you possibly can."

 

[Hugh Jass]

Ciara has carved out a nice career for herself. Not saying she is bad as i dont listen to newstalk nor much radio tbh. But she is very lucky. I think she got her break on that health show. Then george hook fecked up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ciara has carved out a nice career for herself. Not saying she is bad as i dont listen to newstalk nor much radio tbh. But she is very lucky. I think she got her break on that health show. Then george hook fecked up.

She gives me a terrible pain in the arse.

 

[Hugh Jass]

She gives me a terrible pain in the arse.

Where is george hook now? Still on the radio?

 

[Eyepopper]

She gives me a terrible pain in the arse.

Just go for a 5K walk every day Pogue.

I get up at 6.30, shower, handle the chaos that's breakfast time with a 3 and 6 year old, then go to work for 9, supposedly.

At 1.30 I leave my job and get my 6 year old from school and drop him to aftershcool, then try grab something to eat before rushing back to work for the afternoon.

The wife works reduced hours so she collects the kids between 4 & 5, heads home and gives them their dinner.

I get home at 6, spend an hour playing with them and get them into bed for about 7.30.

Then, I feed myself.

But, yeah, Clara, couch to 5k, tell me again how easy it is for everyone to do it.

Note, I don't drive a Land-rover Evoke.

 

[RexHamilton]

Day 3 of the trial today. No idea how the Murphy’s are sitting through the evidence. Must be atrocious.

I know Newstalk took a battering in this thread but their court reporter Frank Greaney has a good podcast, going through the day’s evidence. Tough listen though.

 

[Massive Spanner]

What happened to the girl was horrific, but fecking hell the media attention over this case since it happened is also a bit sickening. Would any of them have given as much of shit if she wasn't a photogenic, Irish, primary teacher? I think Pogue made the point at the time and it still resonates true now.

 

[RexHamilton]

What happened to the girl was horrific, but fecking hell the media attention over this case since it happened is also a bit sickening. Would any of them have given as much of shit if she wasn't a photogenic, Irish, primary teacher? I think Pogue made the point at the time and it still resonates true now.

Strange take considering there hadn’t been a post in this thread in over 18 months and the media quickly forgot about it but it’s obviously in the news again as a high profile murder trial has just started.

 

[golden_blunder]

Poor girl. A witness saw her kicking her legs and screaming for help with the guy kneeling over her

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

The baying mob was the vanguard of middle Ireland. It's maddening, the selective rage. She was pretty and a trad musician, so we valued her life. Nobody knows the name of the middle-aged Mongolian cleaner stabbed in the city last year. It reminds me of the nation mourning the drug related death of a socialite a few years ago, Cathy French I think; and just ignoring one of Europes biggest drug problems in our capital city with people ravaged and dying in filth. It is a tragedy but never mind justice in this case being threatened, the overall idea of justice is at risk if one death is more tragic than another similar death.

Good post.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just been reading some reporting from the case in court. Very unusual to see someone so obviously guilty, with overwhelming evidence that they’re guilty (including a confession!) yet still pleading not guilty. Would love to know what their legal team’s thinking is here. The case for the defence is absolutely hopeless.

 

[2cents]

Just been reading some reporting from the case in court. Very unusual to see someone so obviously guilty, with overwhelming evidence that they’re guilty (including a confession!) yet still pleading not guilty. Would love to know what their legal team’s thinking is here. The case for the defence is absolutely hopeless.

Is there any incentive to plead guilty?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is there any incentive to plead guilty?

Assume it would be taken into account when sentencing?

 

[golden_blunder]

Didn’t he tell the cops his translator that he was guilty?

 

[2cents]

Assume it would be taken into account when sentencing?

I used to think so but I get the feeling that may be more an American thing I’ve picked up from watching TV. Does it actually happen in Irish courts?

 

[Shane88]

Is there any incentive to plead guilty?

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal-law/criminal-trial/sentence/

The offender’s reaction to committing the offence
You can expect a reduced sentence for pleading guilty. A guilty plea will save the court time and can be seen as a sign of remorse. In sex cases or cases involving violence, a guilty plea will spare the victim the trauma of having to relive the events in court.

While a guilty plea may lead to a lighter sentence you will not be given a harsher sentence because you pleaded not guilty. There is a constitutional right to be tried and you cannot be penalised for exercising this right.

Early admission of guilt
The court sees an early admission of guilt to the Gardaí as a mitigating factor as it saves the Gardaí time and resources.

"You can expect a reduced sentence for pleading guilty."

I imagine this is for minor to middling crimes. Showing remorse for a crime like this shouldn't affect the punishment given.



What about this lot?

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2023/0726/1396644-ashling-murphy-court/

"failing to disclose information to gardai"

"impeding the apprehension or prosecution of a person."

So did they know what he'd done and weren't helping with the investigation? Imagine being them if they're still living in Tullamore.

 

[Withnail]

I used to think so but I get the feeling that may be more an American thing I’ve picked up from watching TV. Does it actually happen in Irish courts?

They do take an early guilty plea into account because it saves time and expense to the State.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

Just been reading some reporting from the case in court. Very unusual to see someone so obviously guilty, with overwhelming evidence that they’re guilty (including a confession!) yet still pleading not guilty. Would love to know what their legal team’s thinking is here. The case for the defence is absolutely hopeless.

It's maddening that he's putting the Murphy family through this ordeal with such an overwhelming body of evidence against him.

 

[buchansleftleg]

Having only lived in Ireland for approaching a year I've no idea if it's normal procedure, or just because of the high profile nature of this case, but I was shocked to see the news footage showing extended scenes of witnesses, arresting officers and even the remote language interpreter the Garda used at the time outside of the courthouse.

Is this how the media in Ireland cover trials generally - I saw another case, where there was an extended clip of the female judge arriving at court and she was shown leaving her car in her normal clothing. In the UK the convention would be to only show a judge in their "robes and wig" - the purpose of which is to make them less recognisable.

Given the far right's interest in this case is it a good idea to show witnesses in such a way?