At what point are we going to acknowledge that we're not an elite side anymore?

[Alex99]

Forget the money we've spent because we've spent the vast majority of it terribly. Spending loads of money on naff players doesn't make them any less naff. Forget the managers we've hired, because apart from our current one (who has a gigantic question mark hanging over his head, that looks ready to crush him in the next week), we've not come close to hiring anything resembling a modern manager. They've pretty much all been terrible choices.

I see post after post referencing the fall in standards, and more specifically, how Real Madrid and Bayern Munich wouldn't accept our current situation.

Of course they wouldn't.

In the past decade Real Madrid have won the Champions League five times and La Liga three times, never finishing below third. Bayern Munich have won one Champions League and won every single Bundesliga.

Manchester United have managed two distant second places and reached the Champions League quarter finals on two occasions, with an average league position outside the top four (4.4) having finished outside of it in five of the past ten seasons. Anything close to our current situation is an unprecedented crisis for them. It's par for the course for us.

It's delusion, on a level we used to mock RAWK for, to compare ourselves to those sides. Even if we hope to, one day, be back at their level, it's not going to be an overnight thing solved by one, miracle-working manager.

The reality is that we've not had anything close to a squad capable of mounting a title challenge since the 2014/15 season (arguably a generous assessment in itself, given the departures and new recruits), and the quality slipped quite quickly to being a squad, at best, capable of a top four finish and/or a cup win.

So, at what point are we going to accept that the we're not an elite side anymore, and to get there again is almost certainly going to require a multi-year process of wholesale changes, right throughout the club, from the Chief Executive, to the Director of Football and recruitment team, to the players, and quite possibly the manager too (some of which we might not get right the first time round)?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Strange rant.

I feel we all know big changes are required to make us elite Champions League contenders again and that we all accepted this fact a good while back when we started employing blokes from the Norwegian league.

Feels a bit like you’re shouting in the mirror maybe?

For what it’s worth though, both Arsenal & Liverpool, the former especially, looked like absolute shitshows of how not to run a football club prior to their current managers.

 

[Someone]

Pretty sure that most people here accept that we aren't an elite side and that a lot of changes need to happen to fix that.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

It's not that we're not an elite side. That's extremely obvious to everyone. It's that we're not an elite club anymore, and that's more difficult to digest but very much true.

We're a club run terribly, that isn't going to win any major trophies for a very long time, barring any freak incidents occurring. Sadly, we're very much a club on the decline in every way, and this presents itself on the pitch.

This decline is very likely to continue, and to result in the club ending up being on par with the likes of Everton and Tottenham more than the top clubs, if we're lucky. I imagine with the state of the team on the pitch over the last decade, that younger fans will be interested in United, and as someone who lives in Yorkshire I rarely see United shirts anymore, where there used to be plenty. Suddenly there are Liverpool and City shirts all over the place though.

 

[Blood Mage]

That doesn't mean we should just sit back and tolerate watching us get humiliated at home by Bournemouth.

 

[Leftback99]

Around 2015. The squad has been nowhere near good enough since LVG decimated it.

 

[Skills]

Around 2015. The squad has been nowhere near good enough since LVG decimated it.

I'd take the 17/18-18/19 squad over any we've had after Fergie retired.

 

[Alex99]

Strange rant.

I feel we all know big changes are required to make us elite Champions League contenders again and that we all accepted this fact a good while back when we started employing blokes from the Norwegian league.

Feels a bit like you’re shouting in the mirror maybe?

For what it’s worth though, both Arsenal & Liverpool, the former especially, looked like absolute shitshows of how not to run a football club prior to their current managers.

Have you read this forum? It's absolutely full to the brim of people who think we're the right managerial appointment away from a return to the glory days.

Both Arsenal and Liverpool underwent wholesale changes around the same time as they hired their managers.

It's also funny that you've brought them up.

What was on Arteta's CV before Arsenal hired him that distinguished him from that bloke from the Norwegian league? And how did his first couple of seasons go? Do you think that'd have kept him in a job here?

Liverpool are widely considered an elite side, and yet after winning the league, have found themselves relying on last minute goals from their goalkeeper to overtake Brendan Rodgers' (now-relegated) Leicester City in the final few games to qualify for the Champions League (a season in which he also finished behind that bloke from the Norwegian league), and last season didn't even qualify for the Champions League at all.

That doesn't mean we should just sit back and tolerate watching us get humiliated at home by Bournemouth.

I didn't say we should. In fact, I've referenced the likelihood of the current manager being sacked twice in that post.

The fact is that people have essentially been beating their chests, shouting "we're Manchester United!" in response to any suggestion that we perhaps need to be a little bit more realistic with our short-term expectations. As I said, it's RAWK levels of delusion.

If anything, it's a disservice to RAWK, because at least those bastards were relentlessly and sickeningly positive more often than not.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Is anyone arguing that we are?

 

[Leftback99]

I'd take the 17/18-18/19 squad over any we've had after Fergie retired.

16-17 probably just edges it over 17-18 for me. Still short of elite those seasons but had least had quality and physicality. Lacking in both now.

 

[Bastian]

I don't think anyone is actually saying we are. But plenty are still expecting us to be able to sign top class players which is sort of the same thing, unless they are happy with mercenaries on mega contracts, which we have seen is absolutely toxic.

 

[Lay]

I saw a post on social media that was glorifying the best moments, players, matches over the last decade. There was not a single clip from United

The club has failed to go past the quarter finals of the UCL, only been that far twice I believe. The club is not elite.

 

[stepic]

Everyone has been saying this for the last 10 years. Of course we haven’t been elite since SAF left. This is obvious?

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think the fanbase have non disillusions with what we are. A EL/CL hopping club.

I do suspect one of the issues with the personalities of player we attract though is that we love to harp on about the idea we are still rivalling the best domestic clubs but then we know deep down we are not. Therefore, why are players coming here because the chances of winning things outside of the odd cup are quite slim? The club enables the culture to be like this because they won't accept that we should have adapted our transfer approach years ago and not chased instant success window after window to the tune of about a billion quid.

 

[frostbite]

We are still an elite side because of us, the fans. Few teams have as many fans as Man Utd. And yes, this is a great advantage.

 

[Zen86]

He’s right. I’m not sure if we’re even contenders for the league this season, either.

 

[Skills]

16-17 probably just edges it over 17-18 for me. Still short of elite those seasons but had least had quality and physicality. Lacking in both now.

I'd say 16-17 had a good platform that we could've got so much more out of.

Summer 2017 we spent
£80m - Lukaku
£40m - Lindelof
£40m - Matic

Could've got us instead:

Salah - £40m
Fabinho - £40m
Bernardo Silva - £50m

Would've given us a platform to actually build something to build on for the next 5 years:

Rashford---Martial--- Salah
---------Pogba--- Silva
---------------Fabinho
Shaw----Blind-----Smalling-----Valencia
------------------De Gea

Would've been an interesting team if Mourinho didn't hate all the under 25s in it.

 

[Alex99]

Is anyone arguing that we are?

The forum is rife with chest-thumping nonsense like the below:

We are still an elite side because of us, the fans. Few teams have as many fans as Man Utd. And yes, this is a great advantage.

 

[Steve Bruce]

We are still an elite side because of us, the fans. Few teams have as many fans as Man Utd. And yes, this is a great advantage.

We're a elite club as far as size, history and heritage but our side hasn't been elite the moment Ferguson retired.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I think we know.
Problem is our expectations don't match our realities. Wait now i'm quoting Poch...feck.

 

[Plant0x84]

I haven’t read the OP but from the title alone we are way past that point. We haven’t been elite since 2014.
Frankly at this point it feels like a fight to keep our head above water, we clearly aren’t keeping up with the teams around us which is why Villa, Spurs and Brighton have over taken us.

 

[Plant0x84]

We're a elite club as far as size, history and heritage but our side hasn't been elite the moment Ferguson retired.

That makes us a big club, not an elite one. Nothing about United is elite at this moment in time.

 

[USREDEVIL]

The forum is rife with chest-thumping nonsense like the below:

He has frostbite of the brain.

 

[Fridge chutney]

The forum is rife with chest-thumping nonsense like the below:

Yeah. I think our brand and global reach/fanbase are elite. Our squad, facilities, structure, ownership, etc. certainly aren't. These definitions often require a bit of nuance.

 

[Plant0x84]

He has frostbite of the brain.

Oh man, brain freeze is a bitch!

 

[Jeppers7]

At least 8 years ago

 

[Steve Bruce]

That makes us a big club, not an elite one. Nothing about United is elite at this moment in time.

It really depends on what the definition is.

United throughout the last 10 years have broken transfer records, signed the biggest names in football despite not being in the champions league.

We are still one of the top draws in football despite the fact we have owners who seemingly doing their best to kill the club

 

[frostbite]

We are still an elite side because of us, the fans. Few teams have as many fans as Man Utd. And yes, this is a great advantage.

Let me add to this.

Ronaldo makes 3.2 million dollars with every single post on Instagram. Why? Because he has 600 million followers. It is outrageous, but that's life.

And this is nothing new. And it is not limited to Instagram or social media, of course. Followers, or fans, are very important in every aspect of life. It was like that in the past, it will be like that in the foreseeable future.

 

[fergieisold]

It's not that we're not an elite side. That's extremely obvious to everyone. It's that we're not an elite club anymore, and that's more difficult to digest but very much true.

We're a club run terribly, that isn't going to win any major trophies for a very long time, barring any freak incidents occurring. Sadly, we're very much a club on the decline in every way, and this presents itself on the pitch.

This decline is very likely to continue, and to result in the club ending up being on par with the likes of Everton and Tottenham more than the top clubs, if we're lucky. I imagine with the state of the team on the pitch over the last decade, that younger fans will be interested in United, and as someone who lives in Yorkshire I rarely see United shirts anymore, where there used to be plenty. Suddenly there are Liverpool and City shirts all over the place though.

Despite our current predicament (everything you say is true) I do feel there’s still the elite Demands put on the club not only from fans but the media. I think we will come back given time to sort the football side out.

 

[Steve Bruce]

Yeah. I think our brand and global reach/fanbase are elite. Our squad, facilities, structure, ownership, etc. certainly aren't. These definitions often require a bit of nuance.

100%

 

[Alex99]

Yeah. I think our brand and global reach/fanbase are elite. Our squad, facilities, structure, ownership, etc. certainly aren't. These definitions often require a bit of nuance.

The fanbase is meaningless outside of commercial deals.

Bragging about the number of fans as if it
means anything is the sort of shit we laugh at Newcastle for when they claim to be one of England's biggest clubs.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Elite obviously refers to our competitive ability. Not how many fecking shirts we sell online ffs.

 

[Scandi Red]

This is Manchester United.

 

[Alex99]

Elite obviously refers to our competitive ability. Not how many fecking shirts we sell online ffs.

As I said, RAWK-levels of delusion.

 

[Leftback99]

I'd say 16-17 had a good platform that we could've got so much more out of.

Summer 2017 we spent
£80m - Lukaku
£40m - Lindelof
£40m - Matic

Could've got us instead:

Salah - £40m
Fabinho - £40m
Bernardo Silva - £50m

Would've given us a platform to actually build something to build on for the next 5 years:

Rashford---Martial--- Salah
---------Pogba--- Silva
---------------Fabinho
Shaw----Blind-----Smalling-----Valencia
------------------De Gea

Would've been an interesting team if Mourinho didn't hate all the under 25s in it.

I was happy with Lukaku at the time (the striker market was weak) but it was caused by the Ibra injury when we could gave spent those funds elsewhere and still had a better striker with it.

I'd have had Maguire for £16m in 2017 instead of Lindelof for £40m (and £80m later on). I didn't know much about Salah but Bernardo/Mahrez were obvious buys to me at the time, I'll have posted as much on here.

It takes some doing for us to get transfers as wrong as we have done from that point alone, never mind what came 2013-16.

 

[Plant0x84]

It really depends on what the definition is.

United throughout the last 10 years have broken transfer records, signed the biggest names in football despite not being in the champions league.

We are still one of the top draws in football despite the fact we have owners who seemingly doing their best to kill the club

I don’t agree. We didn’t get Tchouameni, Camavinga, FDJ, DeLigt, Bellingham or Haaland (twice).
We are loaning Weghorst, Sabitzer, Amrabat and Reguilon. These aren’t elite players at the top of their game.
I’d also argue that the very reason we had to pay record fees and wages for the likes of Pogba, Maguire, Sancho and Hojlund is precisely because we aren’t elite and it was the only way to secure those players. Elite clubs do good value business and don’t get bent over every time they approach a player.

 

[Plant0x84]

As I said, RAWK-levels of delusion.

Feck rawk.

 

[USREDEVIL]

As I said, RAWK-levels of delusion.

For realz

 

[Castia]

Realised it years ago

 

[Shark]

You can accept not being an elite club, and simultaneously not accept the season we've had. Bournemouth beating us 0-3 at home isn't something that even happens to some of the worst teams in the league.