Averaging 1.0 points against the bottom 13 teams

[432JuanMata]

Thought it deserved a thread. Our record against the top 6 this season is 14 points out of 18 which has been talked about after Spurs and City. Now it’s on to the horrible side of our season 11 games 11 points against the teams 7 or below it really is shocking but not surprising we our the easiest team to play in the league sit deep compact and we will struggle

 

[Judas]

There's no excuses good enough for how shite we've looked more often than not this season really. This team needs massive investment.

 

[MrSingh2002]

No quick interplay in or around the box. It's been like this since Ole came in.

Inexcusable from Ole considering he played in a team that was known for that. Breaking teams down that came to defend.

 

[Chairman Steve]

At the moment, this is OGSs main problem.

For wins against City and Spurs, you get draws to Everton, Sheff Utd, Villa and a loss to Newcastle. For every one game against a big team, there’s two against a ‘smaller’ team.

We get the same amount of points against beating City away as beating Villa at home. The bottom 13 team make up about 66% of our overall league points tally. We have to start beating them.

And since OGS can’t get his team to do this regularly, whether because of his managerial limitations or the players limitations, then the only place to go is the transfer window. We should have been much busier this summer and we should be busy this January to be truthful. The squad is in such a shit state and I will jointly blame OGS and the board for it.

 

[432JuanMata]

Newcastle 0
West Ham 0
Palace 0
Bournemouth 0
Everton 1
Sheffield 1
Villa 1
Wolves 1
Southampton 1
Norwich 3
Brighton 3

It’s shocking when laid out like that

 

[TMDaines]

Our season is very weird: 0/8 losses in the games against the top nine, but only beaten 2/11 games played against bottom thirteen.

Next three games are against Watford, Newcastle and Burnley too, which we should feel confident going into, but given above that confidence is misplaced.

 

[VeevaVee]

Our season is very weird: 0/8 losses in the games against the top nine, but only beaten 2/11 games played against bottom thirteen.

Next three games are against Watford, Newcastle and Burnley too, which we should feel confident going into, but given above that confidence is misplaced.

It’s not that weird. We’re game raisers.

 

[b82REZ]

Our season is very weird: 0/8 losses in the games against the top nine, but only beaten 2/11 games played against bottom thirteen.

Next three games are against Watford, Newcastle and Burnley too, which we should feel confident going into, but given above that confidence is misplaced.

Is it weird though? Or is it as many of us have worried about. We cannot perform against any team that sits deep.

The stark reality is we perform in the big games because we setup as the underdogs to counter attack. This plays perfectly into a game plan and makes us look like a semi decent team. But these games only constitute 1/3 of our matches.

There is a huge deficit when in comes to coaching and overall quality in the squad.

 

[Tarrou]

It’s not that weird. We’re game raisers.

Isn’t it because we’re good at counter attack and shit at breaking down teams who sit deep?

 

[Tom Cato]

ITT: No one mentioning how the one player that can unlock the bottom team defenses is out injured. We'll be alright once Pogba returns to action on Boxing day.

Remember, Pogba had 13 goals and 9 assists last season alone. That is a lot of output to lose from your midfield.

 

[Manutd GOGOGO]

We seem to mirror the other team's strength or reputation?

The stronger they are , the better we play. We seem to play awkward when the other team is doing so. We play beautifully when the other team is up to it.

On the bright side, we have already improved many aspects.

Now the team has to learn playing ugly or breaking rigid teams down. This is also why Leicester is near the top of the table.

We might not be far from challenging the title once we break this "hurdle". There are so many points to collect from the bottom table.

 

[Botim]

I've quickly went through some possession numbers and compiled these stats, that illustrate the problem:

WIN
Our average possession in games we've won: 42,8%
We've only won one game in which we had more of the ball (54% against Norwich)

DRAW
Our average possession in games we've drawn: 57,4%
Our draw against Arsenal was the only game against a top 6 side where we had more possession (55%)

LOSS
Our average possession in games we've lost: 63,3%
3 of our 4 losses came against bottom half teams (the other being 10th placed Crystal Palace)

So basically you can draw a graph that shows that the higher our possession is, the higher the chance we lose. Pretty amazing, actually.

 

[Hoof the ball]

ITT: No one mentioning how the one player that can unlock the bottom team defenses is out injured. We'll be alright once Pogba returns to action on Boxing day.

Remember, Pogba had 13 goals and 9 assists last season alone. That is a lot of output to lose from your midfield.

It's not strictly true. Even when Pogba was fit during Ole's and Jose's reign, we yet still struggled to break down deep sitting sides. If this were a matter of present circumstance, sure, I'd have optimism Pogba coming back would resolve that, however, it's been this way for a few years now. Even more, reliance upon one individual to make the difference doesn't factor in that this one player himself is going to be inconsistent, and therefore, not able to shoulder the creative burden again and again. When his performance inevitably drops, there's no creative alternative. We need to find ways to break deep teams down through pre-worked movements; systematic repetition of players moving and rotating.

 

[b82REZ]

ITT: No one mentioning how the one player that can unlock the bottom team defenses is out injured. We'll be alright once Pogba returns to action on Boxing day.

Remember, Pogba had 13 goals and 9 assists last season alone. That is a lot of output to lose from your midfield.

What's the excuse when this doesn't happen?

I have no doubt Pogba will have some impact but he blows hot and cold and on his bad days he's as bad as I remember ever seeing a player in our shirt play. Problem with Pogba is he has no resilience. When the game isn't going his way he goes into his shell. He rarely dominates games and his problems are symptomatic of the rest of the squad, he struggles against teams that defend deep.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

ITT: No one mentioning how the one player that can unlock the bottom team defenses is out injured. We'll be alright once Pogba returns to action on Boxing day.

Remember, Pogba had 13 goals and 9 assists last season alone. That is a lot of output to lose from your midfield.

If you rely so much on one player your system is crap.

 

[VeevaVee]

Isn’t it because we’re good at counter attack and shit at breaking down teams who sit deep?

Definitely contributes. But we also seem more driven and focussed

 

[Scholsey2004]

Simple answer, not so easy to solve. We need a good creative cam who's got good pace, intensity and a good work ethic. Our creative output is solely down to pace on the counter which is useless if teams sit deep. We really should have identified Maddison when he was at Norwich, he was such obvious quality. There's been links to Kai Havertz who'd be as expensive as Maddison or there's a kid in the championship called Eze who could be an option. Could Sancho play as a Cam? Is it sensible to spend big chunks of money on players to play out of position?

 

[11101]

We play well against teams that attack us because they leave space for us to run into, and we have probably the quickest front line in the league.

The problem against the lower teams who sit back and don't leave as much space stems from our players.

Martial - technically great but far too passive and cant force himself on a game.
Rashford - not good enough in tight spaces and simply too wasteful to be relied upon.
James - still very raw, not shown anything in tight spaces and very reliant on his pace.

Against any team we will get at least some opportunity to attack space so I don't think we need to become some intricate possession team, we had two great chances on Sunday early on that we couldn't even hit the target with. We need a player who will score those more often than not, probably at the expense of Martial.

 

[Tarrou]

Definitely contributes. But we also seem more driven and focussed

Yeah, to be honest we start off with a lot of effort, but the enthusiasm dwindles after about 20 minutes of huff and puff without much success

 

[Tom Cato]

If you rely so much on one player your system is crap.

Football matches are made up of a series of personal performances in a system, not a system itself. You still need brilliant individualists.

 

[Nr.7]

I honestly can’t figure out is this a part of the process (similar to Klopp’s start with Liverpool before they clicked and went levels up) or we’re really bad collectively and have a “small club” mentality.
There were some fine margins in some of those games which stopped us from winning so I kinda lean towards the first option still.

There’s signs of both scenarios being true, but time will tell I guess.

 

[VP89]

Wow I didn't know it was this bad.

 

[Greck]

ITT: No one mentioning how the one player that can unlock the bottom team defenses is out injured. We'll be alright once Pogba returns to action on Boxing day.

Remember, Pogba had 13 goals and 9 assists last season alone. That is a lot of output to lose from your midfield.

Nah we've seen Pogba this season and it was clear he wasn't going to rescue us. We looked the same. Schmeichel even tried to blame him after one draw calling him the 'problem child' of the team saying he slowed us down. I'm glad I've been able to go a couple weeks without every drab performance being reduced to what Pogba didn't bring on matchday.

 

[Raw]

We simply don't have enough players that can unlock a packed defence with a smart pass.

Our best attackers are the ones that expect one of these players to make passes to them. Our midfield is industrious but not creative, but we'll see how things change once Pogba gets back.

Our fullbacks aren't creative enough either. Liverpool don't particularly have a creative midfield but they get round that by having extraordinary fullbacks to provide that spark of creativity, not to mention Firmino being a perfect link up between midfield and attack.

Another way to get round it is being effective at set pieces. Which we really really aren't, on both ends of the pitch.

 

[Sarni]

In theory it seems it's easier to improve your performances against weaker sides, as that could come with better finishing and more creativity around the pitch but same was said about Wolves last year and how they could make a huge leap if it happens, and it hasn't really. We can't unlock defenses and are playing more like a mid-tier team capable of raising their games against big teams than a big team itself.

 

[Meep]

I think it is an attitude problem and if it is, it's on both OGS and the players. Yesterday I was baffled how little movement there was when attacking. Rashford and Martial a lot of times just jogged around when they were supposed to make runs through the lines or open up for getting passed to. James and Lingard at least try more but don't have the end product. I hope the management really think this through and make plans for how they will improve this static "movement" that somehow becomes the normal game mode.

Make plans - train on variants for parked bus, make runs for each other, speed up, want it more, want to score, have fun, and be merciless.

 

[VP89]

We simply don't have enough players that can unlock a packed defence with a smart pass.

Our best attackers are the ones that expect one of these players to make passes to them. Our midfield is industrious but not creative, but we'll see how things change once Pogba gets back.

Our fullbacks aren't creative enough either. Liverpool don't particularly have a creative midfield but they get round that by having extraordinary fullbacks to provide that spark of creativity, not to mention Firmino being a perfect link up between midfield and attack.

Another way to get round it is being effective at set pieces. Which we really really aren't, on both ends of the pitch.

This plus our strikers don't really move or interlink efficiently.

Oh and we don't have a proper striker either, so naturally the teams that park the bus against us have an easy time. No physical presence to defend against, no natural 9s coming in smart areas for crosses. Just a few silky players to defend against, which means they can easily just drop deep and handle the situation knowing we have no plan B or alternative formation to get at them.

 

[RedSky]

Simple answer, not so easy to solve. We need a good creative cam who's got good pace, intensity and a good work ethic. Our creative output is solely down to pace on the counter which is useless if teams sit deep. We really should have identified Maddison when he was at Norwich, he was such obvious quality. There's been links to Kai Havertz who'd be as expensive as Maddison or there's a kid in the championship called Eze who could be an option. Could Sancho play as a Cam? Is it sensible to spend big chunks of money on players to play out of position?

Agreed.

Lingard - Very good engine but useless end product.
Pereira - See above.
Mata - Inconsistent and slow as feck.
Fred - Can't shoot, decent engine and passer.
Pogba - Decent going forward, not so much as pressing.

Maddison fits the brief but would cost a huge amount. Lorenzo Pellegrini would be a very good option, not exactly a goal scorer but he's doing very well for Roma in that position.

 

[Infra-red]

No great mystery here. As others have pointed out, Solskjaer doesn't have much idea how to break down sides that sit deep against us. When we play one of the top six, there's no expectation for us to make the play and instead we are the ones sitting deep, where the pace of our forwards in behind becomes a real asset.

I expect we'll continue to struggle against the lesser sides, while taking points off City/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs, as long as Ole is here.

 

[LucasXXII]

Even with little individual brilliance in the team it shouldn't be this bad. One point per game is just appalling.

Coming off the back of two huge victories this time, player confidence is not an excuse either.

And what's with our corners? If we got a corner you might as well think we got a goal kick. On the other end we're top of the table in terms of goals conceded from corners.

If we're sticking with Ole, a first-team coach capable of developing tactics and coaching patterns to break teams down and attack/defend set pieces should be a top priority.

 

[R'hllor]

People really forgot our performances and results vs those teams, damn, 2 wins vs Spurs and City and any memory before that went to shit, not for all, some pretending it never happened, easier to spin shit i guess.

We dont have the play 100% to unlock the final third, clear as day, non coached, completely clueless, things look forced, just get in the box and hope some idiot concedes a stupid penalty.

On other side, question about us having players able to unlock those defenses, probably not but we cant say that for certain because due being clueless in final third, they are not even trying to pull something resembling to attacking pattern, i mean our fecking cut backs are pure RNG, proper Jesus take the wheel attempts. (compare that to some other teams)

Which leads finally to Pogba, right now, due desperation, people paddle this "when Pogba comes back" it gonna solve those issues, hope he does but lets not pretend like Pogba is injured for the last 10 months.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Football matches are made up of a series of personal performances in a system, not a system itself. You still need brilliant individualists.

Yes and it's the managers job to get the most out of his players playing within that system and not rely on an individual to make it work.

 

[b82REZ]

Football matches are made up of a series of personal performances in a system, not a system itself. You still need brilliant individualists.

What a load of horse shit

 

[Greck]

Football matches are made up of a series of personal performances in a system, not a system itself. You still need brilliant individualists.

Sorry to quote you twice but I've never disagreed more. That was the old kick and rush premier league. The Peps and Klopps have now shown that holistic systems are far more dominant. Imo A manager without one is really just wasting everyone's time.

It's also the best way to maximise elite talent. That's why Messi doesn't look as great playing for Argentina. It's also why we don't seem to look much more clued up even when a creative player like Pogba is playing. One player can't make a passing triangle himself or singlehandedly orchestrate attacking patterns consistently

 

[Stadjer]

With the tactics Ole plays he would be much better suited to manage one of those 13 teams. Sit back and counter...

Ole is just as defensive of a manager as Mourinho at the moment. Maybe it is because of the players but maybe it is also his vision. Hopefully it will be the first and we will see a change in tactics when better, more suited to attacking, players become available.

 

[Spark]

Our finishing was shit yesterday. Also games at the start of the season saw us capitulate in the second half and hobble away with draws (Wolves/Southampton).

Besides all the arguments re: counter attacking/game raising etc - which may very well be true - the ultimate reason why we're not doing well is the fact that we're relying on an incredibly thin squad filled with two extremes: older, knackered players and ridiculously young, unexperienced, talent.

Somewhere within Manchester United is a formidable football team, dominating possession and getting into the box. However, it's going to require smart signings that lift the team and see us actually convert chances. Goes without saying, but Liverpool are prime examples in recent years. (Fully aware that there is very likely a correlation between smart signings and smart leadership, which is something United are severely lacking).

 

[ivaldo]

No great mystery here. As others have pointed out, Solskjaer doesn't have much idea how to break down sides that sit deep against us. When we play one of the top six, there's no expectation for us to make the play and instead we are the ones sitting deep, where the pace of our forwards in behind becomes a real asset.

I expect we'll continue to struggle against the lesser sides, while taking points off City/Chelsea/Arsenal/Spurs, as long as Ole is here.

So you take Ole out of the equation and then what? These players aren't suddenly going to find craft and creativity. There's a real dearth of it in our squad, and the only player we have that can come up with a bit of magic is out injured. Until we add some imaginative players we are going to struggle to knock the wall down.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

Yep. It's the sort of form and point outlay that would see most managers fired by most 'big clubs'. It's quite frankly disgusting.

 

[Tom Cato]

What a load of horse shit

Oh? So what players we have available doesn't matter, its all down to the tactics?

We should let Ed know that he should cancel the transfer window, we have the players we need to win already in the club.

 

[bosnian_red]

Pogba will obviously make a huge difference when back. Also a reason why we need someone like Haaland to fight with Martial for the main striker role. Those 2 things and fixing up the midfield a bit more will really go a long way.