The funny thing about youth culture is that as you get older you realise that a lot of the things you said and did as a youth were childish and idiotic, and you stop doing them.
Backlash after WC rape jokes flood Twitter
- Thread starter Raoul
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I apologise for the double post, but this was on the 'next page' and I didn't see it
I can't help but feel this is a very naïve stance to take.
The main problem with casually throwing 'rape' around as if it's some kind of 'hilarious banter' isn't so much who it offends at the time, but the diluting of the seriousness of the act.
I obviously hope it never happens, but what if you or one of your circle of friends is attacked on the way home after a night out and is actually raped? The victims perspective on the subject is that it's something that all the guys joke about when watching the football, has connotations of being much weaker than the attacker, is very shaming, has homosexual implications, and the potential for embarrassment and ridicule (which is the very best case scenario in this situation if were honest) means they never report it, have to live with it alone for the rest of their lives, and the rapist is still out there potentially attacking other people and ruining their lives?
Would you still find it funny, and think that people that may take offence to it are overly sensitive, because it's a totally harmless thing to say?
I’m in my 30's as are all my friends. We can all differentiate between serious and not serious.I apologise for the double post, but this was on the 'next page' and I didn't see it
I can't help but feel this is a very naïve stance to take.
The main problem with casually throwing 'rape' around as if it's some kind of 'hilarious banter' isn't so much who it offends at the time, but the diluting of the seriousness of the act.
I obviously hope it never happens, but what if you or one of your circle of friends is attacked on the way home after a night out and is actually raped? The victims perspective on the subject is that it's something that all the guys joke about when watching the football, has connotations of being much weaker than the attacker, is very shaming, has homosexual implications, and the potential for embarrassment and ridicule (which is the very best case scenario in this situation if were honest) means they never report it, have to live with it alone for the rest of their lives, and the rapist is still out there potentially attacking other people and ruining their lives?
Would you still find it funny, and think that people that may take offence to it are overly sensitive, because it's a totally harmless thing to say?
If my 14 year old son starting telling his mates he was going to rape someone on FIFA I would have an issue with.
Grown adults in most cases (like myself) can separate humour and reality.
The sad thing about as we get older is that we forget that the so called childish and idiotic things we may have said were a part of how we grow and learn and evolve as people. The really sad thing is that as we get older we focus more on the things that youth do that we can slag off but not enough on the things youth do that are worthy of praise.
Ultimately thats one of the key points. Appropriate audiences.
I have an adult daughter, I coach a girls high school 1st 11 team. All my friends give me a hard time about coaching 16-18 year old girls and some of the jokes they make are pretty rough. These friends also have their own daughters. If some of the jokes they sling at me were repeated in inappropriate company the fallout would be awful. I know these friends are good people and are just having a laugh so I deal with it. However they also have their own daughters and only make the jokes when its not likely to offend.
If you don't find the issue of rape serious then I don't think you can separate humour from reality TBQH.
Do you follow up your banter with a few racial slurs and a crude comment about the perkiness of the 14 year old girls standing outside the off license on the corner?
I appreciate the sentiment, however you obviously haven't understood what I was saying.
My response was to the poster seemingly justifying these types of comments by blaming youth culture, which however you spin it does not excuse apparently adult members of society from making these kinds of thoughtless and ignorant 'jokes'.
It's childish and shows a lack of social awareness at best. It should never be acceptable in society even when ridiculously dressed as banter.
understood
Haha, now I feel mean. I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything, just put my personal thoughts on the matter forward considering the topic content
Dont feel mean, opinions back and forth help develop understanding.Haha, now I feel mean. I wasn't trying to argue with you or anything, just put my personal thoughts on the matter forward considering the topic content
Oh, evidently.what are you on about?
I can separate seriousness from humour. Its not very hard
Show me were I have demonstrated my inability to separate thisOh, evidently.
'But even though in some peoples opinion it makes me a “clown with the vocabulary of 12-year old" in the scenario you are out with your mates it is totally harmless and is not hurting anybody assuming you don’t have overly sensitive buddies. (Thankfully I don’t)'
Otherwise known as the 'well, me and my mates find the subject of rape ripe for satire, and if it offends anyone they are obviously over sensitive' excuse.
Is that enough of a demonstration?
Hope this makes sense.
Some jokes that are made are ones where the offensive part of the joke isnt the bit thats meant to hold the humour but the fact someone has said something that is offensive. There is a difficult and fine line between trivialising something offensive and using it as a tool for humour with a different point.
No not at all. Do you honestly believe I cannot find the subject of rape serious because I am capable of also making a joke about it?
This is a fairly blanket accusation then. Where I do not like the Wenger Padeo chants because a wider audience is subjected to them, does this mean the many thousand of supporters singing said chants is unable to separate this from real life situations?
What about the many comedians who use serious subjects as their set? Do you really think they are like this in real life?
I'm saying if you found it serious then you wouldn't make a joke about it full stop. The fact that you are comfortable doing so, to the point where you so vehemently defend your right to do so, says more about you than the potential size of your vocabulary (as you trivialised in a previous post).
I'm not saying you cannot separate banter from a real life situation, you misunderstand. I'm saying that you seem completely unable to accept the reality of what you are trying to justify here which is something else entirely. Just because you CAN make jokes about something, doesn't mean you should.
As for the comment about comedians; they make a living through creating controversy. People like Frankie Boyle and Jimmy Carr say these kinds of things to get a reaction and to sell tickets and DVDs of their shows. In real life, they are probably not like that.
You however, are not a comedian, and are actually in that thing we call real life, yet you still try to justify acting like the outrageous persona these comedians create. You claim to have such a firm grasp of the real world, yet you attempt justify your actions by likening them to a showbiz act?
And the fans at Old Trafford chanting about Wenger?
What if I just promise you hand on heart that I do understand the seriousness of these subjects. Will that be OK?
They are no better than you. Is that what you wanted to hear? Do you and your mates also laugh when certain crowds throw bananas onto the pitch, and justify it in a similar way?
As for the facetious comment at the end, personally I couldn't care less whether you make the effort to act like a decent human being that takes into account the feelings of others, or if instead you think it's acceptable to make loaded comments that are likely to deeply offend someone as long as you get a laugh out of it.
However, I'll reserve the right to find that a very ignorant and unrealistic stance to take, and hope that for your sake you are never affected by such an issue so you can continue in your pursuit of hilarious banter
They are no better than you. Is that what you wanted to hear? Do you and your mates also laugh when certain crowds throw bananas onto the pitch, and justify it in a similar way?
As for the facetious comment at the end, personally I couldn't care less whether you make the effort to act like a decent human being that takes into account the feelings of others, or if instead you think it's acceptable to make loaded comments that are likely to deeply offend someone as long as you get a laugh out of it.
However, I'll reserve the right to find that a very ignorant and unrealistic stance to take, and hope that for your sake you are never affected by such an issue so you can continue in your pursuit of hilarious banter
If you had read my post I did say I do like the Wenger chants. Because it is not fair on the wider audience. Just like I dont agree with people posting rape slurs on twitter and facebook. But do I really think every single one of these people can not find the subjects serious or care about important matters like rape? No chance.
We could probably go through 90% of the caf and find something they have said or found funny based on a serious subject and claim they trivialise a serious matter
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We probably could, but that doesn't make it an acceptable way to act does it? Again, you justifying acting a certain way by using the excuse that 'everyone's doing it!' is not rooted in reality, and honestly it's what children do when they have been caught out doing something wrong.
Look, you seem an intelligent guy, and I don't particularly want to argue with you (not least because of your username, and I don't fancy a visit from the Walkin' Dude), but I'm finding it hard to accept your reasoning here because I just don't think it applies
You said " if you found it serious then you wouldn't make a joke about it full stop"We probably could, but that doesn't make it an acceptable way to act does it? Again, you justifying acting a certain way by using the excuse that 'everyone's doing it!' is not rooted in reality, and honestly it's what children do when they have been caught out doing something wrong.
Look, you seem an intelligent guy, and I don't particularly want to argue with you (not least because of your username, and I don't fancy a visit from the Walkin' Dude), but I'm finding it hard to accept your reasoning here because I just don't think it applies
My whole argument is that it is possible for me or anybody to joke about something serious but still care.
If you want to agree to disagree that is grand, but disagree and you dont have a very high opinion of a large percentage of people.
You wouldn't though, would you? Unless your days are spent making fun of serious social issues in public, then going home and having a private cry about all the distasteful things that you have said earlier in the day? The very act of joking about something is to not take it seriously and make light of it...
I hardly think disagreeing with you somehow equates to having a low opinion of society. I do however have a low opinion of people with no consideration for the feelings of others, and those who think it's somehow funny to make jokes about things that ruin lives on a daily basis.
Thankfully that group make up a very small, yet unfortunately vocal minority whereas the vast majority of people choose to show a little compassion when choosing the words they use and what they joke about, and would also find this specific 'banter' socially unacceptable, hence the outcry described in the OP.
I see I cannot change your mind and you are a good poster... But we are now in a situation where you don’t believe me when I say I care and take matters such as rape and paedophilia seriously. I would much prefer you did not have this opinion of me.
To be fair mate, I don't hold a bad opinion of you just because we've had a bit of a debate; I might not agree with you, but it doesn't make you wrong and me right or anything like that!
That is your right, but going further than that, and trying to police language, is a lazy cnuts move, to put it lightly..They are no better than you. Is that what you wanted to hear? Do you and your mates also laugh when certain crowds throw bananas onto the pitch, and justify it in a similar way?
As for the facetious comment at the end, personally I couldn't care less whether you make the effort to act like a decent human being that takes into account the feelings of others, or if instead you think it's acceptable to make loaded comments that are likely to deeply offend someone as long as you get a laugh out of it.
However, I'll reserve the right to find that a very ignorant and unrealistic stance to take, and hope that for your sake you are never affected by such an issue so you can continue in your pursuit of hilarious banter
Look, rape is horrible, despicable, awful. I read an article in the NY Times about a botched rape investigation on a college campus in the States. Link below...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/us/how-one-college-handled-a-sexual-assault-complaint.html?_r=0
Reading that had me boiling. There was documented evidence that a forced sexual act had occurred, with traces of semen found on the victim. There was enough probable cause to charge several students with rape. However it never made it past the school administration. If such incidents are the norm, then I'm not pointing at joking about rape as the cause, seeing as millions of jokes and comments are made about murder, and murder doesn't seem to be an endemic problem. I'm pointing at parents, teachers, authorities, advocacy groups, not doing enough to inform and teach young men (and women too, feck this gender witch-hunt) about responsible sex. The dangers of binge drinking. Just plain common fecking sense, such as the buddy system. So on and so forth.
Take me for example. I grew up in a house where premarital sex is taboo, so yeah, no one taught me not to rape at home. I went to a huge party school for college. I honestly don't recall a huge campus wide initiative to educate students on responsible sexual conduct. I don't think I learned anything about rape in college. I graduated in 2010, just to give some perspective. 2010! Actually, now that I think about it, until I started to educate myself, the only reason why rape didn't sound appealing to me, is because, what is the appeal in having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, or someone who is so inebriated? Jesus, I used to get turned off anytime I started to get comfortable with my ex and she wasn't in the mood. "Fine, just hand me the tissue". Imagine tens of thousands of young men in my situation, who just happen to fall on the other side of the spectrum. T
So back to this thread. The policing of language just sounds... insufficient, lazy, etc. For one, a lot of people who used rape as a metaphor on the forums actually don't think rape is cool. I would like to think so. I've only seen one or two batshit crazy comments in this thread. So getting this group of people to stop using this language, only has the effect of not offending people. More on this later. For the crazy ones out there who don't think much about rape, do you really think banning them from saying "rape" has any effect on them? They may stop saying it, but does it educate? Does it teach and inform? I don't think so. And for some reason this internet activism and faux outrage is given a pat on the back. It does absolutely nothing, apart from not offend people. And on that...
Why should this matter? A few years Mockney uploaded a vid/gif, saying "God is a cnut", and I remember that upsetting sammsky. I do not recall any fecks being given on the Caf. Who knows how important God is to sammsky, only for him to come onto the Caf and see green smilies about. He was offended. Life moves on. Whatever happened to just blocking someone who offended you, or unfollowing them on twitter, or leaving their circle? Or turning the TV off, or etc... If I had a daughter, and god forbid she got raped, I'd invest all my energy in healing her physically and mentally, and I'd throw even more energy into letting young men and women know rape is bad. I don't think I would bother about some eejits like my self using rape as a metaphor to describe a football match. But that's just me, we're all different. Accept it, filter unwanted stuff out of your life, and keep it moving. And actually do something to help, instead of pontificating behind a screen. Or do both, but accept that everyone has the right to say what they want. And exercise your right to be offended. And coexist in that spasm of discomfort. And move on.
Of course this is a private forum, and the mods have every right to regulate language here in accordance with what they want.
Rant over
Good post, however this is not a policing of language, it's an observation of general attitude of a minority, and the impact it might have on larger society. It's also not specifically about this forum; the OP discusses the backlash after thousands of idiots put a slew of rape references on Twitter/Social media after a football match, and the discussion is whether it's acceptable or not.
I understand where you are coming from, and your assertion that people should ignore these kinds of comments because they are made by idiots being idiots, but like I've said in response to @Randall Flagg (Not sure if I've done that right?) that doesn't excuse it.
It's a very selfish viewpoint/cnuts move (to use your little turn of phrase) to think that because it doesn't bother you it doesn't upset anyone else, or because you can ignore it everyone else should.
It doesn't personally bother me, however I can understand the implications that widespread use of this kind of 'joke' (and other similar 'jokes') carry; if we limit it to social media as per the OP, how many thousands of men/women/children that are living with the consequences of a serious sexual assault innocently logged onto Twitter to post a comment after the Germany - Brazil game, only to be confronted with this shite hashtagged all over the place? Granted, that's a very specific example, and ignores the implications on society should it become acceptable terminology on any kind of scale.
Cue the argument that if people are sensitive about these kinds of comments they shouldn't use Twitter/Facebook/public forums, but that is ridiculous and the complete opposite way to what we should think - when did it become more acceptable for people to have to purposely avoid random idiots with absolutely no sense of compassion, rather than you know, not acting like complete pricks in public?
I think most people seem wilfully disingenuous about how Twitter works in these kind of discussions. I'm neither a hater or a particularly zealous lover of it, and I know a whole generation are inherently mistrustful of it, but at least do it some justice. People have to actually physically follow you in order to be (essentially) 'delivered' your tweets. Yes you can seek them out otherwise, but so can you Stormfront, or 4chan. The idea that it's just farting opinions into the atmosphere for all and sundry to see isn't quite fair either.
You're supposed to follow people whose opinions or attitude you like. So I actually think it's perfectly reasonable for most people, without 10s of thousands of followers, to assume they're tweeting primarily to comparatively small group of people who've a decent knowledge of what they're going to get. When things get retweeted and spread around the world, it's more the equivalent of someone going "Did you hear what so and so said!..Well I'll tell you" than it is John Q wanting the world to know how funny he thinks rape is.
Obviously when people do things like tweet abuse to celebrities, then yes, they're looking for the attention, but that doesn't mean everyone is, all the time. If I say something perceived as close to the knuckle on my twitter, be it about religion, violence, or whatever, I'm doing it to the people who follow me. If they then Retweet it, they're doing the same thing. With the idea that those who follow them will also appreciate it.
You're supposed to follow people whose opinions or attitude you like. So I actually think it's perfectly reasonable for most people, without 10s of thousands of followers, to assume they're tweeting primarily to comparatively small group of people who've a decent knowledge of what they're going to get. When things get retweeted and spread around the world, it's more the equivalent of someone going "Did you hear what so and so said!..Well I'll tell you" than it is John Q wanting the world to know how funny he thinks rape is.
Obviously when people do things like tweet abuse to celebrities, then yes, they're looking for the attention, but that doesn't mean everyone is, all the time. If I say something perceived as close to the knuckle on my twitter, be it about religion, violence, or whatever, I'm doing it to the people who follow me. If they then Retweet it, they're doing the same thing. With the idea that those who follow them will also appreciate it.
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Not quite, #GERBRA was the #1 'trend' in the world during the game and in the immediate aftermath, and users that would click that football related hashtag to see what people are saying (as you would, as per the entire purpose of Twitter) found themselves confronted with a flood of offensive tweets, hence the backlash discussed in the OP.
Are you sure you know how Twitter works?
EDIT: I read that back and thought it was unnecessarily confrontational...
In essence, I'm trying to say that you can assume a large part of the outcry has come from people just wanting to read about the reaction to the football results, and when they get hordes of idiot kids making outrageous comments it has annoyed/upset/angered them enough to create said 'backlash'.
I'm sure I don't know how twitter works.
Then you're one of the lucky ones!
Twitter, twatter, hollow chatter, doesn't matter...er, sorry, the urge to rhyme, y'know.
Anyway, one point: what we're dealing with here - in this thread, not least - is surely not people advocating censorship or policing of language or what have ya. People react to other people's use of language - that's what this is. And then you get some people reacting to the reaction, in turn, and crying more or less loudly about freedom of speech (which has never been under threat here) and political correctness gone mad (which it hardly has, unless any negative response to anything anyone says or does which is deemed offensive or in bad taste is "madness").
To me it seems as though some people demand the right to say whatever the feck they please (which is fine by me) while at the same time reacting rather sensitively to anyone calling them out on it, as though the only right response to...anything...is to shut up and ignore it. That's the backside of the standard Stephen Fry quote people like to throw about: so fecking what if you're offended? It doesn't mean anything. Alright, maybe it doesn't. But people still have a right to react, to point it out when they think someone has acted like a bellend, to say "I don't think you should be saying that" instead of mutely accepting anything which is spouted in the semi-public sphere.
Anyway, one point: what we're dealing with here - in this thread, not least - is surely not people advocating censorship or policing of language or what have ya. People react to other people's use of language - that's what this is. And then you get some people reacting to the reaction, in turn, and crying more or less loudly about freedom of speech (which has never been under threat here) and political correctness gone mad (which it hardly has, unless any negative response to anything anyone says or does which is deemed offensive or in bad taste is "madness").
To me it seems as though some people demand the right to say whatever the feck they please (which is fine by me) while at the same time reacting rather sensitively to anyone calling them out on it, as though the only right response to...anything...is to shut up and ignore it. That's the backside of the standard Stephen Fry quote people like to throw about: so fecking what if you're offended? It doesn't mean anything. Alright, maybe it doesn't. But people still have a right to react, to point it out when they think someone has acted like a bellend, to say "I don't think you should be saying that" instead of mutely accepting anything which is spouted in the semi-public sphere.