Baresi: Best CB in History?

gooDevil

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Capello's quote got me thinking about Baresi. I remember those Italy teams with Baresi as the best defensive teams I've seen, but then I only saw him at world cups and when I was young, so perhaps I'm looking at it through nostalgia tinted glasses.

Italy gave up one goal at Italia 90, which lead to them going out on penalties. Baresi took the first and scored it, btw.


He got injured at USA 94, but Ray Houghton managed to chip the keeper from outside the box in that time, hardly Baresi's fault. He went out injured in the next game against Norway and didn't return [edit: till the final].


Of course I couldn't watch Milan, or Italy qualifiers, Euros, et cetera back then.

Anyone want to weigh in?
 

Brwned

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Have to correct you on 94' - he came back in the final and was phenomenal, like Ferdinand v Chelsea last year but against a stronger attack (Romario and Bebeto) at a much higher level. Would've been the stuff of legends if he went on to score the opening penalty and Italy went on to win but unfortunately he missed. Only time I've saw him play is in that WC though.
 

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Quality at CB but could slot in at CM easily enough as well. You get the odd glimpse of Baresi in the way Phil Jones plays the game.
 

gooDevil

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Brwned said:
Have to correct you on 94' - he came back in the final and was phenomenal, like Ferdinand v Chelsea last year but against a stronger attack (Romario and Bebeto) at a much higher level. Would've been the stuff of legends if he went on to score the opening penalty and Italy went on to win but unfortunately he missed. Only time I've saw him play is in that WC though.
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Of course, how could I forget! That was an incredible defensive display, such a shame we weren't able to nick a goal somewhere.
 

Brwned

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amolbhatia100 said:
Was Beckenbaeur as good defensively?
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He was more of a playmaker than a defender, from what I've seen. A ridiculously good player too, he just had that aura and authority. An absolute joy to watch. He obviously could defend because of his awareness but he looked most prominent on the ball rather than off it. I never knew Germany could play such fluid football; not only did they have Beckenbauer bursting forward whenever he wanted to you had their left back Breitner doing the same thing...and occasionally Schwarzenbeck just steamrollering forward. Hoeness, Netzer, Overath in the build up with Muller finishing everything off - really amazing side. You can tell Hummels has tried to mould his passing game around Beckenbauer's game.
 

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Brwned said:
He was more of a playmaker than a defender, from what I've seen. A ridiculously good player too, he just had that aura and authority. An absolute joy to watch. He obviously could defend because of his awareness but he looked most prominent on the ball rather than off it. I never knew Germany could play such fluid football; not only did they have Beckenbauer bursting forward whenever he wanted to you had their left back Breitner doing the same thing...and occasionally Schwarzenbeck just steamrollering forward. Hoeness, Netzer, Overath in the build up with Muller finishing everything off - really amazing side. You can tell Hummels has tried to mould his passing game around Beckenbauer's game.
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So in terms of pure defending, what level would you put him at if you had to compare him to top defenders of recent times? It seems you don't think he was anywhere near the absolute greatest defenders in that aspect and his abilities were more rounded and balanced. But I'm just wondering that purely defensively, given he did play as centre back after all, how good was he?
 

Brwned

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I've no idea, I've not seen anywhere near enough of Beckenbauer to judge him as a defender never mind seen enough of his competitors! I think it's much more difficult to judge defenders than attackers over the course of their career unless you followed them throughout - it's as much about consistency and reliability as it is about the ability to produce an outstanding display every now and then, I think. Whereas for forward it's more about making an impact. And given how in Beckenbauer's day you'd probably have seen no more than 50 games of his career if you lived outside Germany (less than some English people watch of Messi in one season!) I think it'd be very hard to get the full picture of a defender's quality. Not saying you can't or shouldn't, you can obviously look at his positional sense, anticipation, organisational qualities and awareness (especially those who saw him live) but I just think it's harder. Might be why defenders on the whole are given less credit than they deserved from past generations.

I just don't think Beckenbauer was a centre back, basically. It's hard to explain without watching for yourself but a libero was seemingly more of a spare man at the back rather than a pure defender. It's not like Jones who decides to rampage up out of position every now and then, his role was to drift and he didn't have a fixed position. In the final in '66 he played in midfield and in the final in 74' he played in defence but there wasn't a huge amount of difference in the positions he occupied. I don't think he can be compared to Baresi in the role they played. Fortitude's seen a ridiculous amount of older games and he had this to say on Beckenbauer...

Fortitude said:
Beckenbauer wouldn't be a CB in the modern game, he'd sit in front of someone like Rio and run a game in a more impressive fashion than even Scholes at his best could.
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SATA said:
I would think Sammer is right up there as well
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Sammer only played in defence towards the end of his career, and was a sweeper rather than a centreback. He was a good player on his day but only had about 3 or 4 seasons (around 94-97) that I'd have rated him top class.

In the last 15 years I'd rate Mattheus, Hierro, Desailly, Nesta, Maldini, Cannavaro, Ayala, Rio, Vidic etc all higher.
 

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Cutch said:
Sammer only played in defence towards the end of his career, and was a sweeper rather than a centreback. He was a good player on his day but only had about 3 or 4 seasons (around 94-97) that I'd have rated him top class.

In the last 15 years I'd rate Mattheus, Hierro, Desailly, Nesta, Maldini, Cannavaro, Ayala, Rio, Vidic etc all higher.
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Was thinking this recently - amazing how high Sammer's reputation is considering it's based really on 115 games for Dortmund.
 

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I think of Baresi before I think of Moore when considering defenders.
 

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Brwned said:
Have to correct you on 94' - he came back in the final and was phenomenal, like Ferdinand v Chelsea last year but against a stronger attack (Romario and Bebeto) at a much higher level. Would've been the stuff of legends if he went on to score the opening penalty and Italy went on to win but unfortunately he missed. Only time I've saw him play is in that WC though.
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His knees were shot apparently and he was terrific, never got to see the guy but I've always heard a lot about him. Of the defenders I've seen the likes of Nesta, Cannavaro, Vidic, Ferdinand, Desailly, Maldini are the ones I hold in highest regard. I've also heard a lot about the likes of Beckenbauer, Moore, Baresi, Sammer, Passarella, Billy Wright and Gaetano Scirea. One day I will watch them all and see for myself, as a centre-back myself I love watching a defender at his best.
 

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SATA said:
I would think Sammer is right up there as well
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great call on sammer....magical player

i'm not old enough to have seen Beckenbauer but i think Sammer was his heir

Jurgen Kohler was an excellent partner to him as well

difficult to see past Baresi though...classy player

anyone remember Pietro Vierchowod - always thought he was excellent

Desailly was fantastic in his younger years, Nesta, Stam, Vidic and Ferdinand definately in there although they didnt read the game like Baresi

good shout for Paul McGrath (a baresi with lesser players around him, dodgy knees and a drink problem)
 

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As good as Italy's defense was without Baresi, once he went down in 94, Italy conceded a goal in each of their successive games [Italy 1 - 1 Mexico, Italy 2 - 1 Nigeria, Italy 2 - 1 Spain, Italy 2 - 1 Bulgaria]. He comes back and they shut down a great Brazil team.
 

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BaldwinLegend said:
Was thinking this recently - amazing how high Sammer's reputation is considering it's based really on 115 games for Dortmund.
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Yep, theres no doubt he was a classy player and but for injury would have had more individual and team honours, but I don't think he can be compared to those who were consistently brilliant in defence for over a decade.

My personal favourite of the defenders I mentioned in my previous post would be Nesta. Fantastic player, made defending look effortless. We also shouldnt forget how good Rio was on his day. There can't have been too many better.
 

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Sammer wasnt really a centre back . Baresi was easlier the better defedner, one of the best Ive ever seen and given his style one my favourites. I loved Bergomi as well... proper defenders
 

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Baresi undoubtedly magnificent. That was the beauty of McGraths performance against Italy in the Giants Stadium in the '94 world cup, widely considered the best of his career, that he did it with the best in the business down the other end. Great memories.
 
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