Being "right" about a player or manager is not more important than winning games

GazTheLegend

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I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
 
GazTheLegend said:
I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
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Polarization fueled by confirmation bias and anonymity on the internet all contribute to toxic debate environments. Essentially, if people had to put their actual names behind their posts this place would both become a lot more serious and reflected, but also a lot more quiet since the threshold for posting anything becomes higher.

In my opinion people should take this place for what it is supposed to be: a place for fans to hype about their team until they pass out from joy.
 
We need fans back in the stadiums. Social media is a toxic mess, it's like people are daring each other to say the most outlandish bollocks they can in order to get as much attention as possible.

As a general rule of thumb, anyone that has 'united' or a player's name in their Twitter handle, doesn't have their own name as the account name or has a photo of someone else that isn't themselves, isn't worth giving any attention to.

This forum has also been unbearable during our first three games. I'm going to blame lockdown and people having generally poor mental health at the moment but there's no excuse for the lack of respect shown. Hopefully people wake up and realise how far this team have come in two seasons.
 
Tom Cato said:
Polarization fueled by confirmation bias and anonymity on the internet all contribute to toxic debate environments. Essentially, if people had to put their actual names behind their posts this place would both become a lot more serious and reflected, but also a lot more quiet since the threshold for posting anything becomes higher.

In my opinion people should take this place for what it is supposed to be: a place for fans to hype about their team until they pass out from joy.
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Agree. We’ve got a lot of bitter people on here who are far too invested in other people’s success and failure. They need some other things going on in their lives.
 
It's really weird. I've been pretty adamant at times that I don't think Ole is the man to bring us forward but I absolutely loved that win and was jumping around like a madman after Rashford's goal. I assume it was a similar situation with people who defend Ole to the hit after the Spurs loss trying to find any way at all to be positive and ignore the result (fitness bla bla).

When I'm watching a game all I want is for us to win (and some good footie along the way would help), and I imagine it's the same for most, but unfortunately the very vocal few can skew that in certain threads.

But it works both ways, there were some really sad cnuts creating threads and trying to wreck people's heads in anti-Ole threads after that game last night. Why can't they just enjoy the win either? it's like they gave more of a shit about being able to come straight on here after and say "I told you so" than reveling in an incredible win and performance. it's utterly bizarre.
 
There are a couple of very blatant wums on the forum, their end goal isn't to amicably discuss the club but to rile others up.
 
I find it baffling the desperation some grown adults on here have to feel right to a bunch of total strangers on an internet forum. The crusades some go on is quite baffling to see and something I'd expect from teenagers.
 
The advantage of being "Ole in" is that you can actually enjoy the wins, unlike some other posters :smirk:

Jokes aside: it's super frustrating to constantly having to read all the negativity in here. Especially when it's so unwarranted. We did really well under the circumstances last year. We have a likeable manager who also happens to be a United legend. The team is generally moving in the right direction. A month of bad football follows, and then more than than 1/3 of the supporters want him sacked.

I've never been a fan of people going "I told you so", but in this particular case I enjoy seeing it. What the "haters" get on good days is only a fraction of the negativity the rest of us have to endure on a daily basis in here.

TLDR; you go, @sammsky1 ! :D
 
GazTheLegend said:
I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
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"Everyone is against us"

I think this is such an important point, one that should bind us together.
Everyone has always loved to put United down since a long time. And this ABU-ism has only gotten more fuel post Fergie.

The players, the staff, the club should atleast bank on us supporters for well, support.

Of course, everyone has a right to and should criticize. But upon us to not get swept up by the media/opposition fans driven negativity.

And definitely need to tone down the disrespect/abuse/vitriol that becomes a sad norm sometimes.
 
OleBoiii said:
I've never been a fan of people going "I told you so", but in this particular case I enjoy seeing it. What the "haters" get on good days is only a fraction of the negativity the rest of us have to endure on a daily basis in here.
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Yeah because there's less good days than bad days ;)

nah, seriously, that's fecking bullshit. it's that sort of smug attitude that pisses people on both sides of the equation off. You're part of the problem really. Your pal sammsky was a disgrace last night.

the term Ole "haters" is so lame too, who actually hates him? I love him, he's a legend. I loved that win too. Does that mean I'm automatically supposed to just blindly support him through everything? No.
 
Correct. Even more to the point, being wrong is in some ways better than being right as long as you are willing to learn. Because if you learn from being wrong about something you'll have a better perspective on things like that in the future. Being right may mean you don't have as much to learn, but if you arent learning you're stagnating.

Thats why I praise Fred, Lindelof (all of the back 3), DDG for their Paris performances even though I generally seem to rate them all lower than a lot of posters on the caf. And same with Mata in the previous match when he played well.

If you can't praise players when they do the job they're out there for then your critisism when they fail to do the job is meaningless.
 
GazTheLegend said:
I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
Click to expand...

Ole's appointment broke the caf, so many knee jerk reactions from both sides, so many bold claims and by now, most people are so dug down in their trenches that climbing back out again is almost impossible. To be fair, most of the "Ole out" people have no problem gving him credit when its earned and some have even changed their stance on him. Some of them stick to their guns, which is fair too. Everyone is entilted to their opinion. Personally i enjoy the banter and bickering, its kinda the point of the forum

The only kind i find troublesome are the ones who only show up when things are looking bad to spew bile and negativity, and go completely AWOL after a good result. If you deliberately avoid a fan forum after your team had a great win, then you really need to reevaluate some of the choices you made

Regarding players, the likes of Pogba, Rashford and Martial has always had two camps who constantly bicker about them. That always happens with streaky players
 
GazTheLegend said:
I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
Click to expand...

We've been excellent since February. 2 losses caused by a lack of a preseason and a section of the support immediately seemed to team up with Duncan Castles and a few others to try and take Ole down. I find it almost impossible to understand. Is it really that these lads are so desperate to be right that they'd try to get their manager sacked over two defeats?

We are a completely different team than the one we had 12 months ago. We've been arguably the best team in England since February. Yet after 2 losses a mixture of dodgy journos and our own weirdo fans somehow got half the world thinking Ole was a couple of losses from the sack. He was favourite with the bookies to get sacked the other day.

We've literally just set a new record for consecutive away wins. 10 away wins in a row. And yet Ole was favourite to be sacked a few days ago. How does that happen?
 
Is it possible to enjoy a game, celebrate like a madman when we score a late winner, but still see the bigger picture and realise that we've been here before (almost in this exact position actually) and know that the tide can turn very quickly under our current structure?
 
Completely agree with this thread.. there is no symmetry between positive posting and negative posting. Its ok to be (foolishly) hopefully in the face of dire games but we should all unite and celebrate the happy moments this team provides. And there are plenty of those too. At the same time, let's not isolate individual posters.. but encourage them to see the positivity. So great job OP
 
Massive Spanner said:
Yeah because there's less good days than bad days ;)
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Not since the end of January ;)

Massive Spanner said:
it's that sort of smug attitude that pisses people on both sides of the equation off.
Click to expand...

What's smug about supporting a manager(who frankly is doing well under the circumstances) and disliking the extreme negativity in here?

Massive Spanner said:
You're part of the problem really.
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Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Yeah because there's less good days than bad days ;)

nah, seriously, that's fecking bullshit. it's that sort of smug attitude that pisses people on both sides of the equation off. You're part of the problem really. Your pal sammsky was a disgrace last night.

the term Ole "haters" is so lame too, who actually hates him? I love him, he's a legend. I loved that win too. Does that mean I'm automatically supposed to just blindly support him through everything? No.
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Might be hard for them to realise that people can seperate their feelings between Ole the player and Ole the manager.

Any criticism of Ole the manager and suddenly they'll just accuse you of being a hater who loves to see the club in misery.

Frustrating as hell to post here nowadays because any legitimate concerns over how the club is doing will be perceived as being negative for the sake of it.

Some people need to fecking grow up.
 
The simple fact is if your first instinct after a win or a loss is to goad and look to windup people who support the same team as you you're a lost supporter who needs to take a break from the internet, it's not normal and it's frankly weird.
 
OleBoiii said:
Not since the end of January ;)

What's smug about supporting a manager(who frankly is doing well under the circumstances) and disliking the extreme negativity in here?
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...
OleBoiii said:
I've never been a fan of people going "I told you so", but in this particular case I enjoy seeing it.
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It's sad that you can't enjoy a great win without thinking "ooh I'll go on this internet forum and ridicule the people who disagree with me now!"

The hilarious thing is that last night the people bumping the sack thread were people vehemently Ole in, and then calling for the thread to be closed. Fecking morons.
 
People keep going at Rashford and giving useless criticism as if they want him to fail. Young, talented homegrown lad who works his socks off every single game and provides real quality in most. It’s appalling and disgraceful. You’d think he was a Liverpool player like Mane who we actually want to fail. He’s already hit out a few times and told people to zip it on Twitter after great goals and performances like against Newcastle and Brighton, and good on him. Just support the man, and the rest of the team too.
 
For those saying there are far more bad days than good and we've been here before, take a look at our results since Bruno signed at the end of January.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/bruno-fernandes/leistungsdaten/spieler/240306/plus/0?saison=2019

He's lost 4 games for the club in roughly 30 games. 2 semi finals and 2 games against teams with an extra 3 weeks preseason training over us and several friendlies We've just set a club record for away wins.

We've been good for quite awhile.
 
elmo said:
Might be hard for them to realise that people can seperate their feelings between Ole the player and Ole the manager.
Click to expand...

I genuinely don't think I've seen a single post claiming otherwise.

It doesn't really matter who the manager is. I, and most others that support Ole, support him because of what we see on the field. Him being a United legend is just a very nice bonus. I would want him out immediately if he failed us(relative to his resources). No individual is bigger than the club.
 
Massive Spanner said:
It's really weird. I've been pretty adamant at times that I don't think Ole is the man to bring us forward but I absolutely loved that win and was jumping around like a madman after Rashford's goal. I assume it was a similar situation with people who defend Ole to the hit after the Spurs loss trying to find any way at all to be positive and ignore the result (fitness bla bla).

When I'm watching a game all I want is for us to win (and some good footie along the way would help), and I imagine it's the same for most, but unfortunately the very vocal few can skew that in certain threads.

But it works both ways, there were some really sad cnuts creating threads and trying to wreck people's heads in anti-Ole threads after that game last night. Why can't they just enjoy the win either? it's like they gave more of a shit about being able to come straight on here after and say "I told you so" than reveling in an incredible win and performance. it's utterly bizarre.
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Yeah but fitness was an issue. You cant just bla bla that away? Heaven forbid fans actually discuss games and try to work out why we lost.
 
OleBoiii said:
Not since the end of January ;)



What's smug about supporting a manager(who frankly is doing well under the circumstances) and disliking the extreme negativity in here?



Funny, I was thinking the same thing.
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Your lack of self awareness is frankly, staggering.

You are one of the worst culprits for going down the "I told you so route". I shouldn't be surprised really though seeing as you are quite clearly an acolyte for the biggest troll on the forum.
 
Massive Spanner said:
...

It's sad that you can't enjoy a great win without thinking "ooh I'll go on this internet forum and ridicule the people who disagree with me now!"

The hilarious thing is that last night the people bumping the sack thread were people vehemently Ole in, and then calling for the thread to be closed. Fecking morons.
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This is the weirdest viewpoint.

You're literally angry with United fans for gloating over you (a supposed United fan) because United played well and won.

Being right is so important to you that United fans backing the manager after a great result actually winds you up. How did you get this way?
 
I agree with this. I realised when I went into the Bruno thread and saw even him, as the fans darling, getting over the top criticism that some people just need to be right.

I’m not a massive fan of Lindelof, Dan James or Ighalo...but I’d be more than happy for them to change my opinion and ‘prove me wrong’
 
Agree on this point. I’ve held the opinion that Ole isn’t the man to get us back to where we want to be, but I would love nothing more than for him to prove me wrong. He did it with PSG, and I hope he continues to make me eat my words.
 
Massive Spanner said:
But it works both ways, there were some really sad cnuts creating threads and trying to wreck people's heads in anti-Ole threads after that game last night. Why can't they just enjoy the win either? it's like they gave more of a shit about being able to come straight on here after and say "I told you so" than reveling in an incredible win and performance. it's utterly bizarre.
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"Turnabout is fair play". They've suffered two weeks of the opposite so I completely understand why people felt the need to react and let off some steam. It feels like if you support Manchester United as a football club you're always under attack - but being under attack from your own fans too is harder to take. That said, this thread is generally about reactionary venting on a forum and you're not wrong at all - people should be allowed to enjoy a win without having personal attacks or whatever or old posts dredged up.

I feel like allowing certain members of the media and opposition fans our general leniency toward their prominent and negative opinions (when they all absolutely want only the worst for our club or players) has infiltrated the psyche of quite a few posters on here and social media in general to the extent we've been Stockholm-syndrommed into agreeing with them. Look at the media treatment of Arteta Vs Solskjaer. If Arteta had a victory like last night can you imagine the reaction of Arsenal fan-tv or whatever?

I'm not suggesting anyone needs to go THAT far but a little over positivity is way way more pleasant than seeing people slate Rashford last night after scoring that goal. Seeing him being criticized after scoring that goal is the straw that's broke the camels back for me - it should be gushing praise tempered with "if he does improve such and such he will be even better!" Not "he had an awful game and that goal covered up his weaknesses", like - what Manchester United fan actually thinks like that. If it's not a wum they need banning for their mental health if not for the mental health of forum users who have to read it. (I thought Rashford was absolutely outstanding let down only by one or two minor errors and that goal was utter class and he outshined Mbappe)
 
cyberman said:
Yeah but fitness was an issue. You cant just bla bla that away? Heaven forbid fans actually discuss games and try to work out why we lost.
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It was THE issue. They looked dead on their feet for the first few games. It was obvious.

As soon as they got the international break to catch up to the other teams they immediately looked right back to normal and started winning again.

Why people would chose to dismiss this I have no idea.
 
I think 1 of the worst part after a win, regardless of who we beat, is that there are people who actually accuse you of 'over-celebrating' the victory, like its a bad thing. To top it off, they were saying things like 'its not that we're good, its that our opponents are shite' , like we get to choose who to play against every week.
 
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SteveW said:
Why people would chose to dismiss this I have no idea.
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I got a few ideas why, but if I speak I'll be accused of being "smug" or "blindly supporting a manager just because he's a United legend".
 
The negative ones with less patience wind up the positive ones who thinks rationally about the player’s / manager’s decision or action during the bad run. The positive ones came back did the same thing during the good run. And often you also see the negative ones are not enjoying it and persistent being negative even with 10 games unbeaten run. Don’t take it personally and be defensive about it. If you got it wrong then don’t argue about it.

However, that is not the source prime of the toxicity in this forum, it’s actually the social media who toxic people’s mind and transfer it to here.
 
SteveW said:
It was THE issue. They looked dead on their feet for the first few games. It was obvious.

As soon as they got the international break to catch up to the other teams they immediately looked right back to normal and started winning again.

Why people would chose to dismiss this I have no idea.
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It's quite evident now that this was the problem. The alternative is that the players forgot basic positioning, were unmotivated, somehow became badly coached and basically forgot how to play football in the short off-season.

Or they looked like the team always does in pre-season except they were forced to play competitive games while gaining match fitness.
 
SteveW said:
Being right is so important to you that United fans backing the manager after a great result actually winds you up. How did you get this way?
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I mean that's not what I said at all, I was saying that people with this viewpoint, on both sides, are the problem.

People who come on here straight after a bad loss and start clamouring for him to go and saying "see he's shite" are a problem, just like people who come on here after a win and start proclaiming him a god and saying "see he's great", as a means to gloat over overs, are as much a problem as each other. It creates a toxic environment.

I've said multiple times I was delighted with the win, I really don't know what you are on about.
 
GazTheLegend said:
I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
Click to expand...

Well said.

I am embarassed that the Rashford thread has become a hotbed of everything you described.

It is not the end of the world if you call something wrong once in a while, Manchester United should come first and foremost.
 
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