Being "right" about a player or manager is not more important than winning games

OleBoiii said:
Whether you want to sack him or not is binary. There are grey areas of course, such as: "I don't want to sack him, but I'm also not satisfied if I'm being honest". I personally disagree strongly with anyone who wants Ole sacked, regardless of how extreme their stance is. Thus it's useful to refer to people who want him out as "Ole out". Because it's precisely that point I disagree with.

I don't really have anything against "Ole out" posters, provided they aren't cnuts. People have different opinions and that is fine. I will say that the general atmosphere coming from this "camp"(see the quotation marks please. English is not my first language) is very toxic and it has made me consider not coming into the Football Forum anymore.
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Well maybe take a little break for a while? I know I've done it dozens of times over the years I've been a member. The place does become an echo chamber, but despite your justifications you certainly are contributing in some ways to the toxicity you have an issue with.

You and the poster you've previously tagged certainly go into a lot of threads, in your case you may not be aware, but the other fella is, and provoke anyone you disagree with. If you're unable to rationally debate alternative PoVs maybe a forum isn't the best place for you. You do come across as very defensive and unable to accept anyones differing views. Maybe start a private conversation with other like minded posters where you can all circlejerk the manger and convince yourselves that anyone else isn't a real supporter.
 
The people who keep bumping threads with smugness to provoke the Ole in/out after every bad/good game need to calm down a bit. Each think they're better than the other and that is part of the problem.
 
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b82REZ said:
You and the poster you've previously tagged certainly go into a lot of threads, in your case you may not be aware, but the other fella is, and provoke anyone you disagree with. If you're unable to rationally debate alternative PoVs maybe a forum isn't the best place for you.
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I feel like I have been doing that a million times(and still do, annoyingly).

I've heard all the arguments for sacking Ole and I literally disagree with all of them. I don't think he's tactically inept. I don't care if he failed with Cardiff. I don't dislike how he deals with the media. I'm not unhappy with his signings. I don't mind the way he sets his team up. I don't think we're moving in the wrong direction.

I will admit that I have posted a little too many green emojis in the "Would you sack Ole"-thread, but that has primarily been after knee-jerk reactions from the posters that want him out. But then again, I like being able to express myself freely. If I can't laugh at knee-jerk reactions, then I'm being way more restricted than I want to be.
 
Calling Manchester United fans smug for being happy about their team winning and a player playing well is incredibly weird to me. I understand why people might feel attacked if they've previously shared a certain viewpoint. - but surely winning and watching our team play good football take precedence over engaging in arguments with people. If they're going to be smug when you're wrong - you should honestly be happy for them because you being proven wrong was a good thing for the club. I've been proven wrong quite a few times about quite a few players (in the infamous Rashford thread for instance) but I honestly couldn't care less, he's now proven time and again he's an incredible player as well as an incredible man.

You can say "it goes both ways" but I completely and utterly disagree. The door as a Manchester United supporter swings ONE way. You support the club and players or you don't. The negativity is what has CAUSED people like @OleBoii to respond the way he has. This is not a chicken and egg scenario - this is an almost inevitable response to toxicity and negativity and - dare I say - trolling and allowing people to troll. You are going to GET strong responses if you are not supporting the team or manager, because this is a Manchester United forum. Whataboutism isn't an excuse for the behaviour in some player threads and blatant (at least to me) attempts to get a reaction.

That's not to say any player or manager should be immune to such criticism or logic, but it's definitely gone overboard for the last two seasons.
 
OleBoiii said:
I feel like I have been doing that a million times(and still do, annoyingly).

I've heard all the arguments for sacking Ole and I literally disagree with all of them. I don't think he's tactically inept. I don't care if he failed with Cardiff. I don't dislike how he deals with the media. I'm not unhappy with his signings. I don't mind the way he sets his team up. I don't think we're moving in the wrong direction.

I will admit that I have posted a little too many green emojis in the "Would you sack Ole"-thread, but that has primarily been after knee-jerk reactions from the posters that want him out. But then again, I like being able to express myself freely. If I can't laugh at knee-jerk reactions, then I'm being way more restricted than I want to be.
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But you want to apply the same restrictions on those you disagree with? You regularly ask for threads to be closed when you don't agree with the direction it's taking and you ridicule those who don't share your view.

I could pick apart all your arguments for because I disagree with most of what you've said, but that's your view and you're entitled to it. No one is trying to silence you whereas you and a few others try and do just that in many threads.
 
@GazTheLegend

Good post.

I can't imagine there would be much gloating or trolling last night if the forum wasn't already so damn miserable. Who's made the forum miserable? Well it's certainly not the posters who felt the need to gloat last night.
 
b82REZ said:
But you want to apply the same restrictions on those you disagree with?
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No, I just dislike knee-jerk reactions and positive posters being attacked for gloating or being smug(even the ones who are joking/acting tongue-in-cheek) in genuinely positive times.

The main reason I wanted the "Would you sack Ole"-thread closed it's because I genuinely find it embarrassing that it's on the front page of arguably the biggest United forum in the world. Another problem is that a bunch of votes are inevitably going to be outdated, so it makes more sense to start a new thread every half season.

For what it's worth, I also hate it when posters slag off our players in the Player Performances Forum. I get that it's part of being a fan and that footballers must have thick skin, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
 
OleBoiii said:
No, I just dislike knee-jerk reactions and positive posters being attacked for gloating or being smug(even the ones who are joking/acting tongue-in-cheek) in genuinely positive times.

The main reason I wanted the "Would you sack Ole"-thread closed it's because I genuinely find it embarrassing that it's on the front page of arguably the biggest United forum in the world. Another problem is that a bunch of votes are inevitably going to be outdated, so it makes more sense to start a new thread every half season.

For what it's worth, I also hate it when posters slag off our players in the Player Performances Forum. I get that it's part of being a fan and that footballers must have thick skin, but it just rubs me the wrong way.
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All of those things are part of being a fan. What you want is a whitewashed forum where criticism is outlawed. fecking ridiculous. If you're so precious over criticism, put the threads or posters on ignore rather than trying to get everyone to march the beat of your drum.
 
b82REZ said:
What you want is a whitewashed forum where criticism is outlawed.
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No I don't. I'd just prefer that those threads weren't visible to non-members, like the General Forum.

I don't see much difference between calling a player a useless donkey in here and doing the same on Twitter. It's equally toxic and doesn't help anyone. The best part about forums is the ability to express yourself freely. That doesn't mean that you should forget the impact the front page has on visitors.

TLDR; freedom is good, but some threads should be made invisible to non-members.
 
OleBoiii said:
No I don't. I'd just prefer that those threads weren't visible to non-members, like the General Forum.

I don't see much difference between calling a player a useless donkey in here and doing the same on Twitter. It's equally toxic and doesn't help anyone. The best part about forums is the ability to express yourself freely. That doesn't mean that you should forget the impact the front page has on visitors.

TLDR; freedom is good, but some threads should be made invisible to non-members.
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So freedom is only good if it conforms to your narrow view of freedom, and anything that you cant cope with should be hidden away? What a load of horseshit.

You seem very mard if I'm being honest. If anonymous posters upset you and make you feel embarrassed while using an online forum I really don't think this place, or the Internet in general is for you.
 
RashyForPM said:
People keep going at Rashford and giving useless criticism as if they want him to fail. Young, talented homegrown lad who works his socks off every single game and provides real quality in most. It’s appalling and disgraceful. You’d think he was a Liverpool player like Mane who we actually want to fail. He’s already hit out a few times and told people to zip it on Twitter after great goals and performances like against Newcastle and Brighton, and good on him. Just support the man, and the rest of the team too.
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Yeah I agree . Idiots on here seem to forget that footballers are human beings just like us . The abuse Lingard , Pereira , DDG, Maguire , Pogba etc get is embarrassing.. Some may not be good enough but that's not a reason to be telling everyone on here players are shite etc.
Players have other things going on in their lives and that can affect their performances . We haven't a clue what goes on inside the club yet we tell the world exactly what we believe is happening with zero evidence.
It would be nice to support our team and that's what I miss most about going to OT every other week . A load of people there to actually support their team
 
GazTheLegend said:
Calling Manchester United fans smug for being happy about their team winning and a player playing well is incredibly weird to me. I understand why people might feel attacked if they've previously shared a certain viewpoint. - but surely winning and watching our team play good football take precedence over engaging in arguments with people. If they're going to be smug when you're wrong - you should honestly be happy for them because you being proven wrong was a good thing for the club. I've been proven wrong quite a few times about quite a few players (in the infamous Rashford thread for instance) but I honestly couldn't care less, he's now proven time and again he's an incredible player as well as an incredible man.

You can say "it goes both ways" but I completely and utterly disagree. The door as a Manchester United supporter swings ONE way. You support the club and players or you don't. The negativity is what has CAUSED people like @OleBoii to respond the way he has. This is not a chicken and egg scenario - this is an almost inevitable response to toxicity and negativity and - dare I say - trolling and allowing people to troll. You are going to GET strong responses if you are not supporting the team or manager, because this is a Manchester United forum. Whataboutism isn't an excuse for the behaviour in some player threads and blatant (at least to me) attempts to get a reaction.

That's not to say any player or manager should be immune to such criticism or logic, but it's definitely gone overboard for the last two seasons.
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Never mind I take my words. I don't agree with you anymore. The thread title doesn't match. I thought this was from a neutral PoV. If you disagree that it goes both ways and with everything else that seems not right for you, then obviously for you, it's more important to be right than to actual enjoy how the team performs. Why do we need to support the players, like all of them, all the time, are we not allowed to criticize? a bit ridiculous actually. Might as well shut the forum down because we don't need to discuss anything if everyone agrees with everyone else. It's when they can't move on and keep forcing their view on others (while being smug and provocative when they're right), which caused the toxicity in the forum. Nothing more. Like this post. Blaming 'the others' are... me vs them mentality, almost to the point like you cling into it. It gets tiring after a while. Some of you just can't move on. And the discussion then turn into something much personal than about the team anymore.
 
tenpoless said:
Never mind I take my words. I don't agree with you anymore. The thread title doesn't match. I thought this was from a neutral PoV. If you disagree that it goes both ways and with everything else that seems not right for you, then obviously for you, it's more important to be right than to actual enjoy how the team performs. Why do we need to support the players, like all of them, all the time, are we not allowed to criticize? a bit ridiculous actually. Might as well shut the forum down because we don't need to discuss anything if everyone agrees with everyone else. It's when they can't move on and keep forcing their view on others (while being smug and provocative when they're right), which caused the toxicity in the forum. Nothing more. Like this post. Blaming 'the others' are... me vs them mentality, almost to the point like you cling into it. It gets tiring after a while. Some of you just can't move on. And the discussion then turn into something much personal than about the team anymore.
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You're not reading my post the way I intended there - I'm saying that when a player proves you wrong you have to be able to let go of your original opinion in order to continue to be a fan, otherwise you're actively supporting AGAINST the club. Surely we all want Man Utd to do well regardless of what we might think of a player? I get the impression, and hopefully I'm wrong, that sometimes people want us to lose on here to prove a point and that goes against everything I feel about Man Utd as a fan. I'm not neutral - positivity is imo more useful than negativity but I don't like the continual arguments on here either way and to be fair I'm causing one now so I am making this my last post in the thread.
 
b82REZ said:
So freedom is only good if it conforms to your narrow view of freedom, and anything that you cant cope with should be hidden away?
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Again you misunderstand. It's not a matter of my opinion(I'm quite sure I have thicker skin than you, based on this thread).

This is not 4chan or Reddit. This is the biggest(?) Manchester United fan forum. The general vibes we send out to the world probably matters a bit more than a few toxic individuals on Reddit/4chan spouting bullshit. I think there's a degree of responsibility involved when you're a RedCafe member.

Are you familiar with the "RAWK goes into meltdown" and "Bluemoon goes into meltdown" threads? What about Arsenal Fan TV? Well the "Ole out"-threads are the United equivalent of those. I don't care if the opinions exist or are being spouted. I do care how us United supporters come across to the rest of the world, though.
 
Withnail said:
Is it possible for you to have a conversation about this without this kind of passive-aggressive sneering?

As @Massive Spanner said you are part of the problem and these types of posts are why.
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Makes it kinda funny when you are referring to the quote of someone who REALLY is a part of the problem :)
 
OleBoiii said:
Again you misunderstand. It's not a matter of my opinion(I'm quite sure I have thicker skin than you, based on this thread).

This is not 4chan or Reddit. This is the biggest(?) Manchester United fan forum. The general vibes we send out to the world probably matters a bit more than a few toxic individuals on Reddit/4chan spouting bullshit. I think there's a degree of responsibility involved when you're a RedCafe member.

Are you familiar with the "RAWK goes into meltdown" and "Bluemoon goes into meltdown" threads? What about Arsenal Fan TV? Well the "Ole out"-threads are the United equivalent of those. I don't care if the opinions exist or are being spouted. I do care how us United supporters come across to the rest of the world, though.
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You really have zero self awareness.

If you think we have anything close to the numbers of reddit you're sadly mistaken. And if you think the criticism you see on here isn’t prevalent in other online avenues you're wrong.

You really do come across as a snowflake.
 
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@GazTheLegend

Think you are spot on. Some people equate being smug about United winning, with being smug about United loosing... on a United fan forum. It's pretty bizarre.

Under Mourinho, post Sevilla, I was pretty adamant that I wanted him gone. I was still reluctant to visit the forum after a lose, because the negativity made me feel worse about the situation.

I have a mate, who will fairly regularly bet against United. He says if we win, he's happy. If we loose, he doesn't feel as bad. I wonder if there is some of that at play?
 
Tel074 said:
Yeah I agree . Idiots on here seem to forget that footballers are human beings just like us . The abuse Lingard , Pereira , DDG, Maguire , Pogba etc get is embarrassing.. Some may not be good enough but that's not a reason to be telling everyone on here players are shite etc.
Players have other things going on in their lives and that can affect their performances . We haven't a clue what goes on inside the club yet we tell the world exactly what we believe is happening with zero evidence.
It would be nice to support our team and that's what I miss most about going to OT every other week . A load of people there to actually support their team
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Worst thing is, when the social media keyboard warriors in the comments tell players ‘leave for the sake of the club’ or ‘you’re shit’, I wonder what they think it will achieve. Actually no, even worse, when they message them abuse on Instagram direct messages. It’s appalling and serves no use to the club they supposedly love.
 
b82REZ said:
You really have zero self awareness.

If you think we have anything close to the numbers of reddit you're sadly mistaken. And if you think the criticism you see on here isn’t prevalent in other online avenues you're wrong.
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And you evidently lack reading comprehension.
 
Personal opinions are just that - personal views, mostly from a position of ignorance as we simply don't know what's behind the scenes. When we play well, I am happy for the team, manager, staff - and whatever well on behind the scenes to get the game rolling. We all want the best for the club. The one party I do not have gratitude for is the owners.
 
Totally agree with the premise of this thread. The astonishing lack of self awareness from some posters is bordering on delusion at this point.
 
monosierra said:
Personal opinions are just that - personal views, mostly from a position of ignorance as we simply don't know what's behind the scenes. When we play well, I am happy for the team, manager, staff - and whatever well on behind the scenes to get the game rolling. We all want the best for the club. The one party I do not have gratitude for is the owners.
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how can you want the best for the club when your opinion being right is dependent on the club losing lots of games? How is that being a ‘supporter’?
 
Tom Cato said:
In my opinion people should take this place for what it is supposed to be: a place for fans to hype about their team until they pass out from joy.
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Especially on nights like yesterday and against our 5th column of OleOUTers.
 
OleBoiii said:
Again you misunderstand. It's not a matter of my opinion(I'm quite sure I have thicker skin than you, based on this thread).

This is not 4chan or Reddit. This is the biggest(?) Manchester United fan forum. The general vibes we send out to the world probably matters a bit more than a few toxic individuals on Reddit/4chan spouting bullshit. I think there's a degree of responsibility involved when you're a RedCafe member.

Are you familiar with the "RAWK goes into meltdown" and "Bluemoon goes into meltdown" threads? What about Arsenal Fan TV? Well the "Ole out"-threads are the United equivalent of those. I don't care if the opinions exist or are being spouted. I do care how us United supporters come across to the rest of the world, though.
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back in my day we used to measure cock length, not thickness of skin.

how things change.
 
It's obviously a thing: you go so far in one or the other direction that you can't back down gracefully...and there it is. If you haven't simply said that you're generally optimistic or pessimistic with regard to Ole's chances of being a success, but have aggressively and repeatedly declared him a genius or a clueless PE teacher, well...where can you go from that?

There are more examples of the latter category on here (posters who have declared Ole utterly out of his depth) - I think that's pretty evident.

But both sides are as bad as the other, certainly.
 
I've slated managers and players before, so I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou'.

I understand that Ole-outer ultimately want what's best for the club, but I don't think Pro Ole and anti Ole opinions should carry the same weight.

As fans it's our job to back him unless it becomes obvious he has nothing more to offer.

"I feel he isn't the one to take the club forward" and "He relegated Cardiff" aren't really arguments. "He's unqualified for the job" could have been an argument before he got it, but we're past that point now. "There's managers out there better suited to us and more progressive", well besides that being conjecture, none of them is our manager atm, so why not back the one we have?

People are welcome to their opinions, but I haven't seen an Ole out one based on anything more than (negative) gut feelings. It would be OK if they'd just drop the opinion and leave it at that, but it's the same argument being repeated ad nauseum.

I've ignored a thread or two, and the forum feels a lot more positive, but it creeps up into other threads reminding us, even when we win, it wasn't us playing well, it was the opposition that was poor.
 
GazTheLegend said:
I feel like there's this continual need on redcafe for people to say "I told you so", to the point now at which people are being negative about a win away at the champions League finalists, a team that hasn't lost at home in the group's since 2004, involving a winner from a player who has proven he's an incredible human being scoring a goal Ronaldo would have been proud of - whole being managed by a club legend who won us that same tournament.

It feels like the agenda and levels of vitriol people on this forum show toward our players is such that when we win, these people get angry because they've been proven "wrong" and they come on here not to discuss the win or performance but to vent - presumably so the next time we lose they can then come on the forum and say I told you so, I told you X manager or y player was awful.

Have a think about that. What's really more important to you. Everyone else really is against us - there is going to be very little praise from the media for Solskjaer again. It's just going to get forgotten about like all his fantastic tactical victories seem to do. There'll be an hour at most of people talking about it, while for the last two weeks after spurs every day there's been a new column detailing how awful we were (and completely forgetting that defeat was built on an atrocious red card decision) and endless hot takes on here.

It's made Redcafe difficult to enjoy because it feels like every thread is firefighting toxicity now, and it seems to be even encouraged at times. What's going on?
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mirrors a lot of my thoughts.Someone literally just started a thread about how we are all stupid to have enjoyed last nights win and how everything will go to shit soon. In the eyes of some Its like nothing that happens good can be attributed to Ole but everything bad is his doing

i get if we go on a horrific run then thats something different, you expect criticism but to stay quiet for weeks and then come out every so often after a bad result to champion your ‘everyone is shit i told you so’ holier than thou attitude is so boring and negative.

i think some fans have lost a sense of realism - tv money has changed football. Mid table sides can now spend as much as us. We dont have a god given right to win everything and the PL is no longer a 2/3 horse race.

we are 200m quidsworth of players or some superstar academy graduates short of mounting a title challenge regardless of manager. I dont think Ole is the best manager in the world but hes doing okay for where we are at the moment. I dont get the ‘sack Ole’ crowd, they always pump out names like Allegri whos done nothing but win the Serie A one horse race or Pochettino who basically only ever finished best of the rest without any pressure or remit on him other than to finish as high as possible in the league and see what he could do in the cups.
 
tenpoless said:
The people who keep bumping threads with smugness to provoke the Ole in/out after every bad/good game need to calm down a bit. Each think they're better than the other and that is part of the problem.
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We haven't won anything for three years and who knows when will our next trophy be. Meanwhile, I feel the Ole out/Ole in trophy is worth figthing for!
 
sammsky1 said:
how can you want the best for the club when your opinion being right is dependent on the club losing lots of games? How is that being a ‘supporter’?
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That's not my position as a supporter. I want the club to win - with whatever it takes. Some might take the view that winning may lead to a long term problem (Like in that thread about OGS turning United into mid-table club) but that is only true if the team gets a fluky win and ends up doing the same old (wrong) thing. I don't think the win against PSG fits the bill - we played well and that reflects well on the team and management. It was not a lucky win.
 
Jaqen H'ghar said:
I've slated managers and players before, so I'm not trying to be 'holier than thou'. I understand that Ole-outer ultimately want what's best for the club, but I don't think Pro Ole and anti Ole opinions should carry the same weight.

As fans it's our job to back him unless it becomes obvious he has nothing more to offer.

"I feel he isn't the one to take the club forward" and "He relegated Cardiff" aren't really arguments. "He's unqualified for the job" could have been an argument before he got it, but we're past that point now. "There's managers out there better suited to us and more progressive", well besides that being conjecture, none of them is our manager atm, so why not back the one we have?

People are welcome to their opinions, but I haven't seen an Ole out one based on anything more than (negative) gut feelings. It would be OK if they'd just drop the opinion and leave it at that, but it's the same argument being repeated ad nauseum.

I've ignored a thread or two, and the forum feels a lot more positive, but it creeps up into other threads reminding us, even when we win, it wasn't us playing well, it was the opposition that was poor.
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Very very important point: how is OleIN a provocative, controversial or toxic choice???? Surely it’s the default and mandatory stance for anyone who supports Manchester United.

There is no such thing as OleIN! It’s not a ‘thing’.
 
sammsky1 said:
Very very important point: how is OleIN a provocative, controversial or toxic choice???? Surely it’s the default and mandatory stance for anyone who supports Manchester United.

There is no such thing as OleIN! It’s not a ‘thing’.
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The default is supporting Manchester United not an individual member of our staff, manager or otherwise.

I've seen you post some strongly negative stuff about Pogba. I'm intrigued why you think the manager gets unquestionably backed but not a player?
 
Smores said:
The default is supporting Manchester United not an individual member of our staff, manager or otherwise.

I've seen you post some strongly negative stuff about Pogba. I'm intrigued why you think the manager gets unquestionably backed but not a player?
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Because there is plenty of quantitative evidence that Pogba is a problem.
that is not true at all about Ole. So criticising him is not supporting the club at all.
 
Withnail said:
It is when you do it :lol:
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Only if you need man united to lose lots of games to get Ole gets sacked just so you can be right on an Internet forum where no one actually knows who you are.

yes it would be toxic that I celebrate my teams victories for such people. ;)
 
sammsky1 said:
Because there is plenty of quantitative evidence that Pogba is a problem.
that is not true at all about Ole.
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Quantitative evidence :lol:

Wouldn't you find it equally annoying if we all said you had to support Pogba because you're a united fan and it's your responsibility. What about if we moaned because you're being negative by criticising him?
 
Smores said:
Quantitative evidence :lol:

Wouldn't you find it equally annoying if we all said you had to support Pogba because you're a united fan and it's your responsibility. What about if we moaned because you're being negative by criticising him?
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Don't we?

I've often thought it odd that one can be so vehemently against a player and so vehemently for a manager all the while bemoaning those in opposition and not see the parallel.

Unless it's all a WUM of course.
 
Withnail said:
Don't we?

I've often thought it odd that one can be so vehemently against a player and so vehemently for a manager all the while bemoaning those in opposition and not see the parallel.

Unless it's all a WUM of course.
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He's obviously a WUM and i don't really care what he thinks, I've mostly got him on ignore. Just posing the question in relation to the others making similar arguments really.
 
elmo said:
Might be hard for them to realise that people can seperate their feelings between Ole the player and Ole the manager.

Any criticism of Ole the manager and suddenly they'll just accuse you of being a hater who loves to see the club in misery.

Frustrating as hell to post here nowadays because any legitimate concerns over how the club is doing will be perceived as being negative for the sake of it.

Some people need to fecking grow up.
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Criticism is of course fine, if its fair, constructive, based on evidence and put into a larger context. I've seen plenty of people who have voiced legitimate concerns regarding everything to coaching, results vs small sides to his touchline demeanor. People might respond to them and disagree with them, but its not like they are getting shouted down and called a hater simply by doing that

Its the over the top, one sided bile that might result in someone getting called a hater. There are people who have unironically and repeatedly claimed hes the worst manager in the league, while fawning over the likes of Arteta and Lampard who have just as much, if not more to prove. Also, some posters in here think (for some reason) that their calls for Oles head is going to bear fruits straight away once we get Poch in, but Woodward is no point complaining about because hes apparently untouchable
 
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