Ben Pearson

[diarm]

Not even close to being true. A list of the best players we've developed in the last 10 years - looking at first team impact, international recognition, level of club sold to etc - would probably go something like: Richardson, Bardsley, Rossi, Pique, Evans, Simpson, Gibson, Shawcross, Campbell, Welbeck, Cleverley, Pogba, Januzaj. Even if you want to include Rafael, those who went on loan and benefited hugely outnumber those who didn't/haven't. If you look at the few players to have broken through at any reasonably high level club in this country over a similar sort of timespan, you'll generally see loan spells on their CV as well.

You're saying these things as though they are facts when the numbers simply don't back you up.

In 10 years we have sent 214 players out on loan.
Of the list of players you mentioned, only 5 are close to be United quality. Pique may well have developed on loan but I think he was going to be the player he became regardless. Evans developed but most on here would say he isn't United quality. Pogba, Januzaj and Rafael never went on loan.

So that is two players. Pique and Evans. One who left the season after his loan for Barcelona and the other who most think is sub par. 2 out of 214 loan spells. Yet you are trying to say that the number who went out on loan and became success stories "hugely outnumber" those who didn't? When we currently have Rafael, McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Pereira and Wilson in the first team squad, none of who went out on loan?

 

[Brightonian]

You're saying these things as though they are facts when the numbers simply don't back you up.

In 10 years we have sent 214 players out on loan.
Of the list of players you mentioned, only 5 are close to be United quality. Pique may well have developed on loan but I think he was going to be the player he became regardless. Evans developed but most on here would say he isn't United quality. Pogba, Januzaj and Rafael never went on loan.

You're moving the goalposts. You said 'best players in the last ten years', and he's listed them, fairly accurately to my eye. You can't now complain that most of them don't count because they're not good enough.

And Pique doesn't count because 'you think' he was going to develop as he did regardless of the loan. What happened to the facts and numbers?

 

[datura]

I can't wait til real football starts and the reserve forum reverts back to those who actually watch the youngsters.

 

[diarm]

You're moving the goalposts. You said 'best players in the last ten years', and he's listed them, fairly accurately to my eye. You can't now complain that most of them don't count because they're not good enough.

And Pique doesn't count because 'you think' he was going to develop as he did regardless of the loan. What happened to the facts and numbers?

I'm not sure you know where the goalposts were to begin with. This discussion started when I was attacked for suggesting we would be better off keeping Pearson at the club than sending him on loan.

I have absolutely no interest in whether or not sending weak players on loan improves them so they can go and play for West Brom. I am questioning whether sending players on loan develops players capable of playing for our first team and the overwhelming evidence suggests it does not.

Pique counts perfectly. You can see this in the very next sentence you cut from my quote where I said "So that is two players. Pique and Evans". Also in the sentence after that where I said "2 out of 214".

My opinion that world class players will become world class whether or not they go on loan doesn't change the facts and numbers.

 

[Brightonian]

I'm not sure you know where the goalposts were to begin with.

Like this:

The best players we have developed in the last 10 years never went on loan.

Not even close to being true. A list of the best players we've developed in the last 10 years - looking at first team impact, international recognition, level of club sold to etc - would probably go something like: Richardson, Bardsley, Rossi, Pique, Evans, Simpson, Gibson, Shawcross, Campbell, Welbeck, Cleverley, Pogba, Januzaj. Even if you want to include Rafael, those who went on loan and benefited hugely outnumber those who didn't/haven't.

Of the list of players you mentioned, only 5 are close to be United quality.

You made an initial claim. He showed it to be nonsense. You tried to invalidate his point by changing the terms of your initial claim. That's the definition of moving the goalposts. I don't care if you don't think this particular point represents your overall argument. Don't state something as a fact like that unless you're willing to be called out on it if it's wrong.

And you haven't addressed my other point, that you asked for facts, and he offered the fact that Pique - undoubtedly one of the best players out of our youth ranks in the last ten years - went on loan. You disregarded this because you don't 'think' Pique's loan had anything to do with his development, but offered no further evidence or reasoning.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I can't wait til real football starts and the reserve forum reverts back to those who actually watch the youngsters.

They still creep in every now and then like when Rafael was playing.

 

[Brightonian]

I can't wait til real football starts and the reserve forum reverts back to those who actually watch the youngsters.

Hear hear.

 

[mo0]

If you can't comprehend the benefits of a young player watching how a world class professional (who has won pretty much every cup in the game, most as captain) conducts himself on and off the pitch then I suggest you pick up a book and read the accounts of youngsters like Beckham, Ferdinand and Neville who speak about pros like Cantona, Keane, Ronaldo, Giggs and the profound effect they had on their early careers.

Mind boggling.

Yes, on one hand it is great he may get to train with the first team, but never mind playing actual games and cutting his teeth in real world scenarios.

The golden rule in football is playing, playing, playing.

There's plenty of time to see "how a world class professional conducts himself on and off the pitch" in his career.

 

[Sid234]

There's only so much you can learn by watching a player a train and training with them.. Playing competitive football and more of it can never ever be bad for the development of a youngster, while sitting on the bench, playing for the reserves and training with the first can only help you develop a certain set of skills, no matter how well you are coached!

 

[jb8521]

You're saying these things as though they are facts when the numbers simply don't back you up.

In 10 years we have sent 214 players out on loan.
Of the list of players you mentioned, only 5 are close to be United quality. Pique may well have developed on loan but I think he was going to be the player he became regardless. Evans developed but most on here would say he isn't United quality. Pogba, Januzaj and Rafael never went on loan.

So that is two players. Pique and Evans. One who left the season after his loan for Barcelona and the other who most think is sub par. 2 out of 214 loan spells. Yet you are trying to say that the number who went out on loan and became success stories "hugely outnumber" those who didn't? When we currently have Rafael, McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Pereira and Wilson in the first team squad, none of who went out on loan?

Im not sure where you're getting 214 players from unless you're counting number of loans rather than number of players but the actual number of players loaned out in the past 10 years is around 90. Out of which a number were players who were sent out just to get some football rather than in an attempt to develop them as future United players, some were older senior players, some were players who's contract was coming to an end and many were only 1 month emergency loans to help clubs who were struggling for numbers due to injuries.

 

[FromTheBench]

You're saying these things as though they are facts when the numbers simply don't back you up.

In 10 years we have sent 214 players out on loan.
Of the list of players you mentioned, only 5 are close to be United quality. Pique may well have developed on loan but I think he was going to be the player he became regardless. Evans developed but most on here would say he isn't United quality. Pogba, Januzaj and Rafael never went on loan.

So that is two players. Pique and Evans. One who left the season after his loan for Barcelona and the other who most think is sub par. 2 out of 214 loan spells. Yet you are trying to say that the number who went out on loan and became success stories "hugely outnumber" those who didn't? When we currently have Rafael, McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Pereira and Wilson in the first team squad, none of who went out on loan?

You shifted your goalposts and then ignored Rossi who definitely became United quality and would've been at Barcelona if not for a terrible injury. Also they may not have grown but Cleverley and Welbeck played important parts in successful campaigns for the first team.

 

[diarm]

I've had a read back and I wasn't clear in the way I wrote some of my points. My intention was to say that the loaning out system isn't developing players good enough for our first team but I construed it as loaning out players doesn't improve them at all. That's fine and I'll hold my hand up and say I was wrong.

The comments calling people retards or saying "I can't wait till the reserve forum reverts back to those who actually watch the youngsters" are unnecessary and untrue". They only make it seem like the majority consensus in here is groupthink, and afraid of debate. The purpose of having an academy and reserve side is to provide players for the first team, not to be an end unto itself for a few people to feel smug about.

I won't say too much more because I don't think it's welcome here, but I will answer the last few points. I had counted the number of loans as 214 and @jb8521, you are right, the actual number of players loaned is 99.

Spoiler: Loaned Players

Milinkovic-Savic, Henriquez, Nani, Zaha, Hernandez, Powell, Keane, Cleverley, Varela, Johnstone, James, Pearson, Johnstone, W.Keane, Rothewell, Amos, Lingard, Janko, Tunnicliffe, Bebe, Petrucci, Vermijl, Macheda, Blackett, Amos, M.Keane, Lawrence, Anderson, Barmby, Ekangamene, Byrne, Thorpe, Rudge, Fabio, Cofie, Brown, McGinty, Giverin, Van Velzen, Brady, King, Wooton, McCullough, Brown, De Laet, Drinkwater, Norwood, Gladestony, Kuszczak, M.James, Stewart, Chester, Diouf, Welbeck, Ajose, Devlin, C.Evans, Dudgeon, Possebon, Simpson, Heaton, Moffat, Cathcart, Gray, Brandy, Tosic, Hewson, Martin, Campbell, Zieler, Hewson, Manucho, Shawcross, Jones, Lea, Eckersley, Bardsley, Gibson, Lee, Barnes, J.Evans, Howard, Pique, Steele, Foster, Eagles, Rossi, D.Jones, Rose, Johnson, Spector, McShane, Bellion, Picken, Heath, Timm, Miller, Ebanks-Blake, T.Lee

Now some of those 99 are players like Nani, Hernandez and Anderson who I accept don't count as developmental loans. But that still means there are several players who have gone out on loan multiple times and have still not developed into United standard players. I don't see how this is benefiting us?

There are a couple of exceptions obviously, but none of them have been Manchester United success stories.

Pique went out on loan after he had already represented the first team multiple times. He was already a quality player and the loan spell helped because he got game time that he wouldn't have received behind Rio and Vidic. This is a very different situation to Pearson who has yet to feature in the first team. Pique returned from his loan spell to play 13 times for Man Utd before joining Barcelona.

Similarly to Pique, Rossi had played multiple games for the first team before going out on loan. He was already a quality young striker and played a big part in good League Cup run the year before he went to Newcastle and Parma. Again very different to where Pearson is. Rossi got back from his loan spell and was immediately sold to Villareal.

Rafael (who people seem keen not to include) joined United at 17, the same age as Rossi, Pique and his brother Fabio. He didn't go on loan but after Pique, I would count him as the player who has reached the highest level of any in our last 10 years. And he is still playing here and would likely be our starting RB were it not for a terrible injury run.

I simply don't think that sending that number of players on loan, for the return to our first team that we've seen, represents an effective policy. I appreciate that you all seem to feel differently so I'll leave you to your reserve forum in peace.

 

[datura]

The main issue isn't loaning players out, it's recruiting players of the calibre for Man United in the academy system.

 

[Kag]

This logic that you stand more to gain by somehow "taking notes" from senior players rather than getting practical experience(as long as it's not at a rubbish club) is so beyond retarded it beggars belief. This site is literally the only place where I've seen it being continually spouted and I wonder who was the idiot that started it.

Harsh but correct. Young players only improve when they understand how to play the professional game. Too many young players both at United and elsewhere don't get enough match practice and it's the biggest flaw in the entirety of English football. Meanwhile, dickheads like Greg Dyke talk of foreign player quotas and homegrown rules as if they'll address the real issues.

 

[Sid234]

Joyce sums it up quite nicely on the United website today, talking about how more players will be loaned out this season from his squad

"We've never stopped lads going out even if it does leave us badly short. They've got to go out and play men's football at a higher level and prove if they're good enough to come back to Manchester United or prove they can have a career at Championship level or above."

 

[SkeppyRed]

Worries me Pearson will get shipped off on loan to a championship side with a negative philosphy, impatient manager and shit coaches. All in all, he wont play in the right enviroment for the type of player he is and will stagnate in his development. No doubt he has to start playing First team football at this stage but it depends where for me.

Pearson is such an intelligent player who intercepts the ball and playmakes when he's got it. He finds space really well and can pass with both feet. He would be wasted competing aerial duels in the centre of a lower-half championship midfield, especially as he's quite small with a low centre of gravity. I fear the worst.

I pray that we would start sending our English youth players to loans in Spain, Holland, Germany, etc. There's no doubt their good enough and it would be so much better for them mentally and tactically (at the right club of course). They could learn a better style of football while growing up off the pitch by experiencing a different culture, etc.

Too much emphahsis put on preparing them for English football has a bad influence on young English players in particular imo. Scrapping it out in the championship is not a good learning curve to play for the top 5 in the PL. They need to develop more tactically and mentally between the ages of 18-22 which more often then not is best done away from the English lower leagues.

 

[FromTheBench]

He definitely should leave this summer so he doesn't become thorpe part 2. Same with Rothwell. Either on loan or permanent.

Probably will go on loan to a championship club and do well hopefully so he can then aim at the prem next.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Worries me Pearson will get shipped off on loan to a championship side with a negative philosphy, impatient manager and shit coaches. All in all, he wont play in the right enviroment for the type of player he is and will stagnate in his development. No doubt he has to start playing First team football at this stage but it depends where for me.

Pearson is such an intelligent player who intercepts the ball and playmakes when he's got it. He finds space really well and can pass with both feet. He would be wasted competing aerial duels in the centre of a lower-half championship midfield, especially as he's quite small with a low centre of gravity. I fear the worst.

I pray that we would start sending our English youth players to loans in Spain, Holland, Germany, etc. There's no doubt their good enough and it would be so much better for them mentally and tactically (at the right club of course). They could learn a better style of football while growing up off the pitch by experiencing a different culture, etc.

Too much emphahsis put on preparing them for English football has a bad influence on young English players in particular imo. Scrapping it out in the championship is not a good learning curve to play for the top 5 in the PL. They need to develop more tactically and mentally between the ages of 18-22 which more often then not is best done away from the English lower leagues.

It's a fair point but let's not forget that's more or less exactly the cv that Schneiderlin had before he started dominating PL teams for Southampton. I think people can get a bit too hung up on the finer details of a young players development. Obviously, their career needs to be carefully managed but the cream will always rise to the top. If they have the talent and the desire to succeed at United (which seems to be an absolutely tiny % of players coming through our academy - the real issue here) they'll be a hit wherever they end up en route.

 

[limerickcitykid]

The idea that all Championship side are physical hoof-ball teams while small clubs in Spain, Holland, and Germany are technical and tactical geniuses is also stupid.

 

[SkeppyRed]

It's a fair point but let's not forget that's more or less exactly the cv that Schneiderlin had before he started dominating PL teams for Southampton. I think people can get a bit too hung up on the finer details of a young players development. Obviously, their career needs to be carefully managed but the cream will always rise to the top. If they have the talent and the desire to succeed at United (which seems to be an absolutely tiny % of players coming through our academy - the real issue here) they'll be a hit wherever they end up en route.

Yep your right Schneiderlin and other Southampton players are proof the right enviroment does exist in English football. I should have thought about that more.

Still would like to see more young English players move abroad though.

The idea that all Championship side are physical hoof-ball teams while small clubs in Spain, Holland, and Germany are technical and tactical geniuses is also stupid.

Not all of course. I did say 'at the right club'.

In general I beleive exposing them to different styles and tactics would be more benificial, as well as help them learn more off the pitch rather than have it all cosy too early.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I like the theory of loans to the continent but it must be a huge shock to the system for youngsters to be so far out of their comfort zone. The Antwerp experiment didn't go too well anyway.

 

[kundalini]

I like the theory of loans to the continent but it must be a huge shock to the system for youngsters to be so far out of their comfort zone. The Antwerp experiment didn't go too well anyway.

What do you mean the Antwerp experiment didn't go too well ? I thought assaulting referees and getting life bans was all part of the loan experience. Though Ronnie Wallwork's post-football career might suggest it had more to do with him than Antwerp. Then again, Cantona's career in France contained at least one similar incident. I'm confused.

Loan theory is one thing, loan reality often rather different to the plan. So many things that can go wrong. Even when the loan goes well, it sometimes goes too well, as appeared to happen with Rossi and Pique.

But playing more than one full season in the U21s is such a waste of time that anything else is worth a try.

 

[PS18]

You're saying these things as though they are facts when the numbers simply don't back you up.

In 10 years we have sent 214 players out on loan.
Of the list of players you mentioned, only 5 are close to be United quality. Pique may well have developed on loan but I think he was going to be the player he became regardless. Evans developed but most on here would say he isn't United quality. Pogba, Januzaj and Rafael never went on loan.

So that is two players. Pique and Evans. One who left the season after his loan for Barcelona and the other who most think is sub par. 2 out of 214 loan spells. Yet you are trying to say that the number who went out on loan and became success stories "hugely outnumber" those who didn't? When we currently have Rafael, McNair, Blackett, Januzaj, Pereira and Wilson in the first team squad, none of who went out on loan?

Rest of your post has been more than adequately addressed by others but just as an aside, Blackett has indeed been out on loan.

 

[Brightonian]

So rumours that he'll be back at Barnsley for another six months next season, along with Rothwell.

Bit disappointed this hasn't been his season to make the step up into first team squad contention (via a spot on the tour), but that should be an excellent loan for both of them if it pans out. A 'return' loan is always a good one because the manager already has confidence in what the player can do, and obviously has plans to continue to use them in the first team. Rothwell will benefit just by association - the Barnsley management will hear from the United guys that Rothwell is a similarly gifted player, and feel confident of his level from the start.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So rumours that he'll be back at Barnsley for another six months next season, along with Rothwell.

Bit disappointed this hasn't been his season to make the step up into first team squad contention (via a spot on the tour), but that should be an excellent loan for both of them if it pans out. A 'return' loan is always a good one because the manager already has confidence in what the player can do, and obviously has plans to continue to use them in the first team. Rothwell will benefit just by association - the Barnsley management will hear from the United guys that Rothwell is a similarly gifted player, and feel confident of his level from the start.

Good news. Always like it when two players go on loan together, like Evans and Welbeck at Sunderland. Even better when the positions play means they can work on a partnership.

 

[Stobzilla]

Good news. Always like it when two players go on loan together, like Evans and Welbeck at Sunderland. Even better when the positions play means they can work on a partnership.

Evans was on loan 06/07 and 07/08, Welbeck went in 10/11

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Evans was on loan 06/07 and 07/08, Welbeck went in 10/11

Oops.

Have we ever had two players on loan to the same club at the same time? Apart from Antwerp, anyway.

 

[Brightonian]

Nothing especially significant springs to mind. Couldn't have picked a more perfect pair to do it though. I've been saying for years that as gifted as they are as individuals, their partnership is far more than the sum of its parts. Complement each other beautifully. Here's hoping Rothwell can become as integral a part of the side as Pearson was last year so that they can get to work dominating games together.

 

[Sid234]

Oops.

Have we ever had two players on loan to the same club at the same time? Apart from Antwerp, anyway.

Michael Keane and Lingard to Leicester in 2012 come to mind..

 

[Elliott]

Oops.

Have we ever had two players on loan to the same club at the same time? Apart from Antwerp, anyway.

Simpson and Evans were at S'land at the same time, guess you're thinking of them.

 

[jb8521]

King and James were at Preston at the same time and I think De Laet was there for a month or 2 as well. We've had so many loans to Carlisle over the past few years that some of them surely overlapped as well

 

[Sid234]

Will Keane and Nick Powell at Wigan?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

disappointing news, i guess the only good thing is that its only a one month loan.....

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Simpson and Evans were at S'land at the same time, guess you're thinking of them.

Why thank you. You've handed me a lifeline. I'll take it. That's exactly why I made that mistake. Nothing to do with a memory that's barely fit for purpose.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Returning to the same club is great but I can't say I won't be disappointed to see him back in League One. With Scowen and Hourihane it is going to be tough for Rothwell to get a regular spot as well and he really needs a loan that will guarantee the time.

A bunch of their fans have a bit of a hatred towards Pearson because he is a loan player too.

 

[PS18]

Bit disappointed it's League One again as well. The one thing you hope for with repeated loan spells is that the player is making something of a step-up each time (thinking of Evans at Sunderland in the Champ and then Prem, or Cleverley going Leicester->Watford->Wigan). Guess the hope has to be that there's a step-up to come in January.

 

[mo0]

The idea that all Championship side are physical hoof-ball teams while small clubs in Spain, Holland, and Germany are technical and tactical geniuses is also stupid.

very salient point.

people (generalisation) often get over-enamored with the 'foreign coach' or the 'foreign player'. firm believe it's a misconception.

 

[Brightonian]

Haven't been on the caf for a few days so don't know if there's a thread, but are he and Rothwell going to play against Everton tonight? Are either of them injured? Have they been in the starting line-up much?

 

[Stobzilla]

Haven't been on the caf for a few days so don't know if there's a thread, but are he and Rothwell going to play against Everton tonight? Are either of them injured? Have they been in the starting line-up much?

Ben has. Joe generally comes off the bench for him, all reports from Barnsley mates are good thus far.

 

[Nickosaur]

Ben has. Joe generally comes off the bench for him, all reports from Barnsley mates are good thus far.

Was going to say this. I still check the Barnsley team at 3pm every Saturday to see if they are in.