*crash!*
Berbatov or Henry?
- Thread starter GlastonSpur
- Start date
Ronaldo is playing as a hug the line winger at the moment. I don't think it's his form that is dictating this. Quite the opposite in fact. He is under instruction to play wider, and his form is suffering because he isn't playing on instinct as he did last season.
Seems a strange decision to me. In fact I've wondered at times whether Ferguson is deliberately trying to lessen our reliance on Ronaldo because we are only going to get one more season out of him.
Jesus, I've woken up in a bad mood thanks to some complete tosser playing drum n bass on full volume - if I ever find out who does this I'm going to throw their fecking speakers out the window.
And now the first thread I open is this shite.
And now the first thread I open is this shite.
You've always resorted to childish insults though. Thats just who you are and I dont mind. Doesn't effect me does it? I think its far harder for you to come up with a valid point on a subject so you take the easy way out.
We're saying it was lucky that Ronaldo actually whipped in a good free kick which Berbatov scored from, or that we finally scored from a corner, or that a player just passed it to him.
The same result would happen if the same situations came about in the league or Champions League. He's still always in the box for free kicks and corners so no change there, and the fact that someone just gave the ball away is completely unrelated to his positioning and just pure luck.
since when has Tevez been a fox in the box? Yes he has scored a few vital goals when needed but I also remember him missing quite a few chances from 5-10 yards out last season, not something a 'fox in the box' would do.
The problem this season hasnt been the strikers that we have selected, it has been the fact that we have struggled to break teams down in the league. Champs League is different teams are more inclined to get forward and attack and then keep a higher line in defence. This is when we can beat teams on the break with our pace or our creative players like Carrick and Scholes use through balls to set up our strikers.
In the league teams have tended to sit really really deep, and we havent worked out how to break them down. our fluid movement up front seems to have stopped, players like Rooney and Ronaldo should be given a free role with their movement they can move defences and create space for other attackers. But the last few games we have seen hardly any movement which means we cant find a direct through ball and the ball is pushed out to the wings where by the time it is out in the box there are too many bodies in there and it is easy to clear.
The problem this season hasnt been the strikers that we have selected, it has been the fact that we have struggled to break teams down in the league. Champs League is different teams are more inclined to get forward and attack and then keep a higher line in defence. This is when we can beat teams on the break with our pace or our creative players like Carrick and Scholes use through balls to set up our strikers.
In the league teams have tended to sit really really deep, and we havent worked out how to break them down. our fluid movement up front seems to have stopped, players like Rooney and Ronaldo should be given a free role with their movement they can move defences and create space for other attackers. But the last few games we have seen hardly any movement which means we cant find a direct through ball and the ball is pushed out to the wings where by the time it is out in the box there are too many bodies in there and it is easy to clear.
He was when we needed him. Hence the last-gasp goals he scored several times which secured points we otherwise wouldnt have had.
Don't think that's entirely true. He definitely pops up in central positions with amazing frequency. If anything, he is cutting inside far too much.
I wish he would mix things up a bit more and, just occasionally, beat his full-back on the outside and whip in a cross. Hasn't been doing this anywhere near enough, IMO. When he does, it almost always creates decent situations for us.
Thats not luck though, thats good play. Thats someone actually doing what they meant to do
Then I guess the whole game of football is all about luck. Why dont we just build a team of lottery winners?
Luck is when the ball rebounds or deflects. When its hit correctly and goes where you want it to, thats just good play. When you arrive late in the box and get on the end of a cross, thats also good play. Luck would be someone else volleying the ball into you and giving you a goal.
I think I actually agree with you here. Trying to unpick your tortuous bullshit, in a vain attempt to apply some semblence of logic - whilst attempting to reign in your attempts to drag every thread off on infuriating tangents - is most definitely not the easy way out.
Calling you mental save me a lot of typing and cuts straight to the essential truth of the matter.
You're mental.
Its very difficult right now to see how things are going to improve unless Berbatov becomes more mobile around the pitch.
Its pretty obvious why we are struggling to score goals at the moment. There isn't anyone in or around the box half the time to give it to. We end up playing pretty passing patterns around the penalty area because there is no other option. Easy to defend against. Opponents regroup because they get time to do so, and deal with us through sheer numbers.
We overcame this last season through pace. Not necessarily just quick movement, but quicker ball all round. We achieved this because we had options. Right now Berbatov's main involvement in our attacking moves are receiving the ball, laying it off and......that's it.
As I feared in the summer, we are having to adjust to Berbatov and not vice versa. No player in the world is good enough to come into a European Cup winning team and have an already effective team rebuilt around him, but either Berbatov improves or we have no choice but to do that, and are doing that right now.
Problem is, it doesn't suit our squad. Ronaldo is pushed out to the wing where he loses his teeth, and Rooney is still just as limbo as he was last season because Berbatov has taken his preferred position.
Christ.Thats not luck though, thats good play. Thats someone actually doing what they meant to do
Then I guess the whole game of football is all about luck. Why dont we just build a team of lottery winners?
Luck is when the ball rebounds or deflects. When its hit correctly and goes where you want it to, thats just good play. When you arrive late in the box and get on the end of a cross, thats also good play. Luck would be someone else volleying the ball into you and giving you a goal.
I mean, I know I'm argumentative but I can admit when I'm wrong.
You just diverge into different points so that you're never wrong about the point that you are actually trying to make, that other people just don't get, clearly.
The original point was about how Berbatov might get into different positions in different competitions, when clearly he wouldn't have as two of the goals were from set pieces and another was just given to him on a plate. Nothing to do with how he was positioned, right?
anyone who doesn't say Henry has got to be a WUM
This will be one of the only times I talk about this, but I feel I owe it to you
What I do wonder though is why you even bother with that. You don't actually believe I care whether you insult me or not, do you? If anything I enjoy watching you sink that low. It gives me some insight on the kind of person who would come up with so, so many opinions I consider so, so wrong.
And it turns out, the person who does that on a regular basis is someone who logs onto an internet forum for several hours a day and will spend a large amount of that time trying to insult me with childish insults. I'd imagine your doing this is, in your mind, an attempt to get me to stop stating my opinion or to change it. When in fact it just reinforces my opinion that you're almost always wrong. Someone who does what you do and sinks as low as you do will most often be. Not that I'd need to see you act so poorly to know it, but its still slightly entertaining.
Why would he want to do that? He is the worlds best player operating on the right hand side of a front three. Ronaldo choosing to cut inside instead of crossing will be of substantially more benefit to us, firstly because there is often nobody to cross it to, and secondly because he scores a ton of goals doing it.
There is no way Ronaldo is playing as wide as he is this season out of choice. Witness how many times on Saturday he received the ball from O'Shea and gave it straight back to him due to lack of options.
But you didnt just admit you were wrong, did you. You did the same thing and talked about something you believe I said wrong.
At no point have I said that his goals in each competition prove that he's playing slightly differently. I've said they suggest he is. Or rather, I believe I've said they don't suggest it, with some kind of mocking smiley face to show I dont believe that at all.
But I do believe he is, from my recollection of his matches in the champions league and in the league. For the most part I've felt he should be getting into the box and into scoring positions more in the league far, far more often than in the champions league where I've had very few complaints about his performances. As thats the case, obviously I believe he's doing something different. You can call it luck if you want, I wont.
You never admit you're wrong, I do quite often when necessary.
But they don't suggest that, at all. That would be stupid, and instead of admitting that it is stupid to think they suggest that, you go on and diverse into completely different points.
I think your spot on. Berba does need to become more mobile, and he has the off the ball pace to do so, so why are we seeing such labored play. I dont see a problem with him coming deep, Saha and Ruud use to come deep too, but they also use to bust a gut to get into good positions in the box which Berba has yet to do.
I imagine he does it for the entertainment of himself and to a lesser extent other users of the site. Isnt that why most of us post?
Erm. Go check the thread about Deco. I admitted I was wrong and even apologised for it and that was today... The question is, upon hearing this and going to find said post, will you admit you were wrong here?
I'm actually just very careful about what I say. Of course a few numbers dont 'prove' anything. They can only suggest something. 'course in everyone's blind rage and will to think anything I say must be wrong, you've read it in a different way thinking I've said something I havent. I'm still making my original points here.
Oh yes and in answer to the original post: Henry.
Is this forum really the pinnacle of childish humour and insults? I post here to talk about football, not to see people insult each other. If that were my idea of entertainment I'm sure I could find a better place.
Good point, I'm wrong. It's that easy. But admitting your wrong about a stat, which has concrete proof to back it up, isn't the same as admitting your wrong in an argument. I can easily do that, I've said before that actually I'm wrong more often than I'm right. Doesn't bother me, I don't feel the need to be right.
I like posting about football too. Only when you have read "we have played all the top 10 from last season away", "Ronaldo wants to bugger off to madrid", "who is our best central midfield pairing?" and "why are the fa out to get us?" for the ten thousandth time, you realise a little bit of witty banter or outright hostility is what keeps this place alive.
In my opinion, anyway.
Fair point. Though I'm yet to see this witty banter
So, who is our best midfield pairing?
Oooooooooh well now youre asking an interesting question.
Scholes and Carrick in my opinion.
Why, what do you think?
You fecking cnut.
Scholes and Carrick in my opinion.
Why, what do you think?
You fecking cnut.
Obviously I dont consider myself wrong. I have a clear picture of what I think and what I've said about what I think. Has every single point I've eluded to today been absolutely 100% correct? No it hasnt. But the things I've set in stone and have stated as fact have been, in my opinion.
The only part that could be seen as "incorrect" are the stats I put forward meaning 100% that my theory (that Berbatov hasnt got forward as much in the league as much as in the champions league.) is correct.
Well, I didnt say that actually.
I said it suggested it which it does to me and I can only talk from my own perspective. Clearly he's done something different. You call it luck, I say its good play
That's the thing though, you pick out specific points when other people are wrong but then ignore specific points in your own argument. It's a bit frustrating and you know it.
You can't accept that you can have wrong opinions, just that the stats around your opinions are wrong.
Doesn't the fact that people rarely agree with you, on a range of subjects, imply that you're wrong more often than you admit?
Why, surely there is a bit of room for debate?anyone who doesn't say Henry has got to be a WUM
I actually like the way Henry has changed his game a bit and do not buy that he is rubbish now, I think he would have done well here. They are different kinds of players though really, Berbatov is more involved in the general play. No doubt that Henry a couple of years ago with the blistering pace to stretch defences along with his quality on the ball would have been ideal though, hypothetically. The thing is, even though he is still faster than most players now I am not sure what the benefits would be long term.
Berbatov has not got off to a flying start for us, no, but more time is needed and I believe he will get better.
The situation with him is not as bad as some are making out on here anyway, from what I have read.
There are times when I will make a post to signify I've read and agree with something you or someone else has said. Just for that. But sometimes, especially when lots of people are replying to something I'm writing, I dont have the time/energy to go through every single point. I'm not the rubberman. But I do read each and every post and try to take into account the opinion of another. Not making the same point again (where someone else has made a good obervation and proven it notquitesotrue) would be a good indictation that I've read such a point and admit theres some truth to it. I'll apologise here and now that I dont make a post stating "You're right, I agree with that and... " etc, every single time. But the reason I apologise is thats not going to change. So we'll just have to live with it.
The stats arent wrong
I dont believe we have the smartest of fans. Sometimes when you disagree I'll check myself because there have been occasions where I believe you've made very good points. As you say though, you arent always right so I wont always do a backwards flip when I see that we disagree.
The majority havent though, so I'd rather they disagreed with me.
Arguing with you is more tiring than anything I do in a normal day, honestly, it's exhausting.
I'm away downtown, need a bit of fresh air.
I'm away downtown, need a bit of fresh air.
You're deliberately over-looking a crucial - and glaringly obvious - point here. Which is rather apt, seeing as denying the obvious is pretty much your standard modus operandi in this place.
You are, quite literally, the only person in the whole of redcafe with whom I am unable to discuss football without resorting to childish abuse, for the sake of my own sanity (and PC monitor/face).
You can choose to learn from this observation or you can use your usual tactic of ignoring everything that doesn't fit in with your own world-view and somehow twist the facts to convince yourself that it's all about me being "almost always wrong". The choice is yours but, sadly, I have very little confidence in you making the correct choice. Learning really isn't your style.
And you're the only person I disagree with 90% of the time. Sometimes things just arent meant to be
Like Rooney and Berbatov
You must have realised I was kidding
I think the problem is playing 4-3-3 come 4-4-2 instead of 4-4-2. Park tucks in and Ronaldo stays forward - we end up in last seasons formation with two players (Berbatov and Ronaldo) who seem less than willing to put in the yards this season. To be fair to Berbatov - he has never been that type of player and never will be (round pegs etc). I just think it is a natural tendency for the players to do so and react - it is a fluid and versatile formation.
While i think Park has been excellent at protecting his full-backs - at some point we need to see if we can implement a winger capable of hugging the touch lines and pulling oppositions central midfield/defence wider to cover the overlap created by our full-backs and wingers. This is when players like Rooney and Berbatov come into their own. I don't know what more to expect from Berbatov - he isn't Messi-like and cannot beat whole teams on his own; he is a playmaker, and requires players to be making runs and asking for the ball all the time.
Personally, as Fletcher and Carrick provide more than enough cover along with Rio/Vida - i would let Nani and Ronaldo at their full-backs, give Rafael and Evra the full-back slots and let fly with it in the next few games. We aren't struggling to keep clean sheets at the moment - we need some cohesion and a few goals.
I'd rather call it debate than an argument. Argument suggests to me its somewhat hostile or violent and unless you're beating yourself over your head with your keyboard, I'll go ahead and assume its been neither of those things? Though arguments are what are put forward in debates so I'm not saying its wrong. Just expressing a personal preference
You're exhausted? Its because you do it in a goal-oriented way
"I have to get him to say he's wrong!"
Well, I tend to only have differing opinions (to others) on things which cant be disproven. If they could be proven they'd be facts and we'd agree on them. So unless I mistake events (like in the Deco thread, where I wrongly had him down as 2 seasons in Barcelona for some reason) thats rarely going to happen. And usually my memory of events is pretty good and there are resources on the internet that can jog my memory when its not. But still thats where I'm going to be wrong more often because my memory certainly isnt perfect.
Wasnt the original thread about who was better, Berbatov or Henry?
Well, a no-brainer anyway...
Well, a no-brainer anyway...
I still hold to my original view.
When you ask if I still think Berba will come good, I presume you mean as a Man. Utd player (since he already 'came good' for Spurs)? If so, my answer to your question is 'yes'. This is partly because for Spurs he didn't start scoring a lot/making assists until the 2nd half of each season - don't ask me why
It's probably also worth pondering the reasons why he did so well for Spurs - to see if there are any lessons to be learned from Man. Utd's perspective. Was it to do with his being particularly suited to our style of play? Was it because Keane as strike partner suited him especially well?
I don't claim to know the answers, but for some reason(s) both Keane and Berbatov are struggling a bit right now at separate clubs but thrived together before.
I think you raise an interesting point about both Keane and Berbatov struggling. You split up a top-quality partnership and, chances are, both players will take a while to gel with their new teams/team-mates.
At least Berbatov is getting minutes on the pitch, to adapt to his new team. Keane's in all sorts of trouble if Benitez continues to freeze him out.
Berbatov, he'll come good soon.
Believe.
Believe.