Berbatov or Henry?

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm only 2 minutes into the argument and to be blatantly honest I am actually already a bit frustrated.

Arguments really do become pointless with Ekeke.

I'll use insults as a last resort, although I'm already slowly moving towards having to do just that.

I realised this some time ago. Which is a shame really because it's obvious he knows his onions.

The thing is, he suffers from two fatal flaws, he has preconceptions about players which he clings onto relentlessly, irrespective of how the season unfolds and he is pathologically incapable of admitting that his views might not be correct, or allowing them to evolve over time. That and his excruciatingly annoying habit of diverting the topic of discussion in a new and completely irrelevant direction, the second he becomes aware he's fighting a losing battle*.

All of which means that discussing football with him is slightly less fun than trying to shave your own head, with a cheese-grater.




* A rather neat example being the way he's moved the topic onto a discussion about scoring in "big games" when we were actually debating the positions they take up on the pitch. Text-book Mcfeckwittism.

 

[Ekeke]

Thats not very nice, ganging up on Ekeke... I'd help him out, if I knew wtf he was getting at...

Needing to gang up or insult people doesnt reflect well on their respective arguments. Luckily Brwned normally has a good one and doesnt sink so low in the first place.

 

[Brwned]

Riiiight, still veering away from the main point of the argument then I see.

The fact of the matter is Tevez stays out of the box plenty, as does Berbatov.

It's been successful in the past and I believe it will be successful in the future. It may be slightly reliant on Ronaldo but when you've got a player as good as him in your team you might as well use him.

 

[Ekeke]

Tevez got into the box and scored plenty of goals poaching, even against the big teams. That was my point. Its still my point.

In the champions league, Berbatov has got into the box and taken his goals quite well in a similar way.

I've seen no evidence of the same thing in the league though where he's spent almost all of his time 20-30 yards from goal. Even in the dying minutes against Liverpool he was on the half way line. Tevez of last season would have been in the box trying to get on the end of something. Berbatov in the champions league this season may have done the same thing. Berbatov in the league didnt.

 

[Brwned]

Tevez got into the box and scored plenty of goals poaching, even against the big teams. That was my point. Its still my point.

In the champions league, Berbatov has got into the box and taken his goals quite well in a similar way.

I've seen no evidence of the same thing in the league though where he's spent almost all of his time 20-30 yards from goal. Even in the dying minutes against Liverpool he was on the half way line. Tevez of last season would have been in the box trying to get on the end of something. Berbatov in the champions league this season may have done the same thing. Berbatov in the league didnt.

Doesn't matter whether it's in the league, the Champions League or a big game. They've both shown a distinct tendency to stay outside the box, and shown flashes of their ability inside the box.

You used it as a criticism of Berbatov when the player you want to play ahead of him does the same thing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Doesn't matter whether it's in the league, the Champions League or a big game. They've both shown a distinct tendency to stay outside the box, and shown flashes of their ability inside the box.

You used it as a criticism of Berbatov when the player you want to play ahead of him does the same thing.

*whispers*

he's also come up with a completely random theory about them taking up different positions in league games and in Europe, because the reality of Berbatov nicking a few poachers goals already this season doesn't fit with what he's trying to argue in this thread. which literally makes no sense whatsoever.

i would point this out but i'm trying to follow my own advice

 

[Brwned]

*whispers*

he's also come up with a completely random theory about them taking up different positions in league games and in Europe, because the reality of Berbatov nicking a few poachers goals already this season doesn't fit with what he's trying to argue in this thread. which literally makes no sense whatsoever.

i would point this out but i'm trying to follow my own advice

 

[Ekeke]

Doesn't matter whether it's in the league, the Champions League or a big game. They've both shown a distinct tendency to stay outside the box, and shown flashes of their ability inside the box.

You used it as a criticism of Berbatov when the player you want to play ahead of him does the same thing.

I didnt say it was the reason I would prefer to play Tevez over Berbatov though. And you know what, I'm not even sure that is my opinion - so I dont know how you know its my opinion

Tevez has had some really shit games this season. He's looked out of sorts and out of form, I believe from being seen as a clear 3rd choice even when others arent playing so well. I saw him slumped in his chair the other day after he was dropped, 4 goals scored the previous game. Gotta be confidence shattering. When he's come on in matches he's usually looked lost and played deeper and a lot less threatening than last season. I do believe playing him week after week next to Rooney would re-ignite the partnership from last season.

However, I'm not sure I think Rooney is better than Berbatov. Or the other way around. They are both fantastic off-strikers, with different strengths and weaknesses but both level out about the same. The difference would be that Rooney is still a young player and Berbatov is not.

Ultimately I've yet to see any reason why Berbatov + Rooney is better than Tevez + Rooney of last season. But Tevez isnt looking the same player as last season (for the above mentioned reasons) - except for in the carling cup, where he looked a better player than last season even. So its not as simple a choice.

All things considered I'd go with the proven Tevez + Rooney for a few league games in a row to see if it will work as well as last season.

In the champions league I'd definately start Berbatov right now. Theres no reason not to. Rooney has played better as his partner than Tevez has, so he'd be his partner.

As for Tevez, yes he came deep last season. Berbatov has stayed deep in the premiership this season. Tevez did both. He had games where my thoughts were he was too deep, but he also had lots more games where he was getting in the box and onto the end of things. Berbatov hasnt shown much of that in the league.

If you remember back to last season, most of Tevez' league goals were poached and really meant something. They meant winning points we wouldnt have otherwise.

Berbatov needs to add more of this to his game because its sorely lacking from our side, from last season.

As I say, he's done it in the champions league albeit against poorer teams, but he regularly fails to do it in league games so far this season.

Oh and if 14 league goals, the majority of them poached, is a "flash" of Tevez' ability inside the box, then whats he capable of in best form? 30?

 

[Ekeke]

*whispers*

he's also come up with a completely random theory about them taking up different positions in league games and in Europe, because the reality of Berbatov nicking a few poachers goals already this season doesn't fit with what he's trying to argue in this thread. which literally makes no sense whatsoever.

i would point this out but i'm trying to follow my own advice

Yes, 4 goals in 3 champions league matches and 2 goals in 14 league matches certainly suggest he's played exactly the same way in both competitions.

 

[Brwned]

I didnt say it was the reason I would prefer to play Tevez over Berbatov though. And you know what, I'm not even sure that is my opinion - so I dont know how you know its my opinion

Tevez has had some really shit games this season. He's looked out of sorts and out of form, I believe from being seen as a clear 3rd choice even when others arent playing so well. I saw him slumped in his chair the other day after he was dropped, 4 goals scored the previous game. Gotta be confidence shattering. When he's come on in matches he's usually looked lost and played deeper and a lot less threatening than last season. I do believe playing him week after week next to Rooney would re-ignite the partnership from last season.

However, I'm not sure I think Rooney is better than Berbatov. Or the other way around. They are both fantastic off-strikers, with different strengths and weaknesses but both level out about the same. The difference would be that Rooney is still a young player and Berbatov is not.

Ultimately I've yet to see any reason why Berbatov + Rooney is better than Tevez + Rooney of last season. But Tevez isnt looking the same player as last season (for the above mentioned reasons) - except for in the carling cup, where he looked a better player than last season even. So its not as simple a choice.

All things considered I'd go with the proven Tevez + Rooney for a few league games in a row to see if it will work as well as last season.

In the champions league I'd definately start Berbatov right now. Theres no reason not to. Rooney has played better as his partner than Tevez has, so he'd be his partner.

As for Tevez, yes he came deep last season. Berbatov has stayed deep in the premiership this season. Tevez did both. He had games where my thoughts were he was too deep, but he also had lots more games where he was getting in the box and onto the end of things. Berbatov hasnt shown much of that in the league.

If you remember back to last season, most of Tevez' league goals were poached and really meant something. They meant winning points we wouldnt have otherwise.

Berbatov needs to add more of this to his game because its sorely lacking from our side, from last season.

As I say, he's done it in the champions league albeit against poorer teams, but he regularly fails to do it in league games so far this season.

If that's confidence shattering he shouldn't be playing at a big club, to be honest. If he can't get used to competition I don't want him here, simple as that.

You're making all of these judgements on Berbatov's form this season for the first few months when Tevez's best performances came at the back end of the season and Berbatov hasn't yet had that chance to show whether he can do that.

I'm willing to wait for that partnership to start to spark, just like I was with Tevez last season. There've been hints this season that the partnership was going well when Ronaldo had just came back and Rooney was on form, so there's reason to be optimistic.

The only reason you're not is because you didn't want to have him here and can't get over that. You really need to by now.

Berbatov wasn't my number one choice, Adebayor, Ibrahimovic or Torres would have been my ideal choices.

I can still acknowledge that Berbatov's a fantastic player, has shown flashes of brilliance and is putting in that extra bit of effort to fit in here. I appreciate that and he deserves a bit of support rather than constant criticism.

 

[Ekeke]

Where have I said he's not brilliant? I just said I dont even know if I believe Rooney is a better player.... Where have I ever said he's not a fantastic footballer?

I'm giving him credit for his displays and the result of them in the champions league. I just want to see the same in the league too, and he hasnt managed it at all and I believe Tevez' role of scoring the goals he did, in the way he did was absolutely vital to our success. So if Berbatov is going to replace him in the side, he needs to add that element too else we'll be a worse side.

As for Tevez, I agree. If he cant play the third choice role which clearly he has been given, rightly or wrongly, then we shouldnt sign him. But that doesnt have anything to do with his level of performance when he was first choice. Some day we may see whether Berbatov can hack it as a backup too.

 

[Brwned]

He's not in contention with Rooney, he's in contention with Tevez. Is he a better player than Tevez?

He doesn't need to replace him directly though. Carrick didn't replace Keano directly, it's not like Tevez replaced Saha either. Direct replacements don't happen, the team adapts to play differently with different players, it doesn't play the same way and expect the player who comes in to play just like the player he's 'replacing'.

Berbatov won't have to score goals in important games just because Tevez did, he'll just need to perform well because that's a requirement of a Manchester United footballer.

And he will.

 

[Ekeke]

Its not replacing him directly, its about replacing something Tevez brought to our side last year that meant we were successful. Without it we would not have been.

If he doesnt someone else has to. Ronaldo was already doing it, Rooney was already doing it... So who's job is it now? Carrick? Nani?

Passing the buck to players who arent even playing up front?

And he is in contention with Rooney and Tevez and Manucho.

He's a better player than Tevez, but seems a worse fit and I dont think we can do without his ability to turn the ball into the net when we need it. So in the same way that I believe Del Piero is a better footballer than Tevez, I'd rather have the argentine up front next to Rooney.

 

[Brwned]

Its not replacing him directly, its about replacing something Tevez brought to our side last year that meant we were successful. Without it we would not have been.

If he doesnt someone else has to. Ronaldo was already doing it, Rooney was already doing it... So who's job is it now? Carrick? Nani?

Passing the buck to players who arent even playing up front?

And he is in contention with Rooney and Tevez and Manucho.

He's a better player than Tevez, but seems a worse fit and I dont think we can do without his ability to turn the ball into the net when we need it. So in the same way that I believe Del Piero is a better footballer than Tevez, I'd rather have the argentine up front next to Rooney.

Can't we spread the goals around more? Carrick's already got a few, Nani has it in him, we now have a third choice striker capable of scoring goals and then we could get a few more goals from Rio and Vidic. It's not like Tevez score loads of goals anyway, Berbatov's got it in him to score as much without doubt.

Can't believe you'd rather have Tevez than Del Piero in this team, doesn't make any sense especially with how he's played in the last year.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yes, 4 goals in 3 champions league matches and 2 goals in 14 league matches certainly suggest he's played exactly the same way in both competitions.

It certainly doesn't suggest he's playing in different areas of the pitch in both competitions, if that's what you mean.

 

[Ekeke]

Its the same reason I wouldnt like to see Fabregas next to Scholes.

Teams generally get the best results when they have great player and then partner him with someone who makes up for his weaknesses - meaning that partnership doesnt have that weakness. Its solid.

Rooney and Tevez was not perfect at all. But it worked well enough for Ronaldo to do the rest.

Make no mistake, the Tevez of last year was an invaluable goal poacher who was responsible for a decent amount of points that we needed to secure the title.

If Berbatov or Del Piero came and did the same thing, then its a no contest. Both are better footballers, if they are providing the same killer instinct inside the box then obviously I'd choose one of those.

I'm talking about the Carlos Tevez of last season when he was in goal scoring form - which isnt the same as him being on form, because I dont believe we saw the best of him due to fitness. His general play certainly wasnt the best I've ever seen it. But like when Michael Owen isnt completely fit, he's still likely to pounce on something and put the ball in the back of the net. Thats more what we saw last season and thats the Tevez I'm talking about needing now. Not the shadow of his former self we've seen at times this season.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its not replacing him directly, its about replacing something Tevez brought to our side last year that meant we were successful. Without it we would not have been.

If he doesnt someone else has to. Ronaldo was already doing it, Rooney was already doing it... So who's job is it now? Carrick? Nani?

Passing the buck to players who arent even playing up front?

And he is in contention with Rooney and Tevez and Manucho.

He's a better player than Tevez, but seems a worse fit and I dont think we can do without his ability to turn the ball into the net when we need it. So in the same way that I believe Del Piero is a better footballer than Tevez, I'd rather have the argentine up front next to Rooney.

Jesus wept. You're actually re-writing history now, to turn Tevez into some sort of fox in the box.

He is anything but. Never has been. Nicking a couple of close-range goals, in big games, bears no relevance whatsoever on his role in the team or the type of player he is. But this is exactly the kind of surreal dead-end you regularly back yourself into, by refusing to back down on an opinion which is blatantly incorrect.

Why don't you just admit you were wrong to claim that Tevez gets forward more than Berbatov and move on with the main topic of the thread?

Oh wait, you can't, you're Mcfeckwit...

 

[Brwned]

Its the same reason I wouldnt like to see Fabregas next to Scholes.

Teams generally get the best results when they have great player and then partner him with someone who makes up for his weaknesses - meaning that partnership doesnt have that weakness. Its solid.

Rooney and Tevez was not perfect at all. But it worked well enough for Ronaldo to do the rest.

Make no mistake, the Tevez of last year was an invaluable goal poacher who was responsible for a decent amount of points that we needed to secure the title.

If Berbatov or Del Piero came and did the same thing, then its a no contest. Both are better footballers, if they are providing the same killer instinct inside the box then obviously I'd choose one of those.

I'm talking about the Carlos Tevez of last season when he was in goal scoring form - which isnt the same as him being on form, because I dont believe we saw the best of him due to fitness. His general play certainly wasnt the best I've ever seen it. But like when Michael Owen isnt completely fit, he's still likely to pounce on something and put the ball in the back of the net. Thats more what we saw last season and thats the Tevez I'm talking about needing now. Not the shadow of his former self we've seen at times this season.

Rooney's major weakness up front is his inability to win the ball in the air. He doesn't have many others. His biggest asset is his movement and having someone like Berbatov there to pick out his runs complements him well.

Del Piero has been in great goalscoring form over the past year, far better goalscoring from than Tevez since he came here.

I get your point, but Del Piero wasn't the right example.

 

[Ekeke]

It certainly doesn't suggest he's playing in different areas of the pitch in both competitions, if that's what you mean.

Berbatov has scored 1.33 goals per champions league game this season. One goal every 49 minutes he's been on the pitch.

Berbatov has scored 0.15 goals per premier league match. One goal every 582 minutes he's been on the pitch.

Clearly he's playing exactly the same way in each competition

 

[Ekeke]

Jesus wept. You're actually re-writing history now, to turn Tevez into some sort of fox in the box.

He is anything but. Never has been. Nicking a couple of close-range goals, in big games, bears no relevance whatsoever on his role in the team or the type of player he is. But this is exactly the kind of surreal dead-end you regularly back yourself into, by refusing to back down on an opinion which is blatantly incorrect.

Why don't you just admit you were wrong to claim that Tevez gets forward more than Berbatov and move on with the main topic of the thread?

Oh wait, you can't, you're Mcfeckwit...

He was a fox in the box at the times we needed him to be last season. Thats exactly what he was.

 

[Brwned]

Berbatov has scored 1.33 goals per champions league game this season. One goal every 49 minutes he's been on the pitch.

Berbatov has scored 0.15 goals per premier league match. One goal every 582 minutes he's been on the pitch.

Clearly he's playing exactly the same way in each competition

You're actually trying to make an argument that it has anything to do with the competition, rather than the fact that he just happened to be in the right position in those particular situations?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Berbatov has scored 1.33 goals per champions league game this season. One goal every 49 minutes he's been on the pitch.

Berbatov has scored 0.15 goals per premier league match. One goal every 582 minutes he's been on the pitch.

Clearly he's playing exactly the same way in each competition

Kudos on at least getting the maths correct but that doesn't actually change anything. Obviously.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He was a fox in the box at the times we needed him to be last season. Thats exactly what he was.

You're mental.

 

[KeyserSoze]

You're actually trying to make an argument that it has anything to do with the competition, rather than the fact that he just happened to be in the right position in those particular situations?

Brwned please just give it up, this is getting painful.

What he said, and those tedious stats have very little to do with Pogues views on whether he played in different areas of the pitch in both competitions.

 

[Brwned]

Brwned please just give it up, this getting is painful.

What he said, and those tedious stats have very little to do with Pogues views on whether he played in different areas of the pitch in both competitions.

Righto, couldn't be bothered any more anyway.

 

[Ekeke]

Rooney's major weakness up front is his inability to win the ball in the air. He doesn't have many others. His biggest asset is his movement and having someone like Berbatov there to pick out his runs complements him well.

Del Piero has been in great goalscoring form over the past year, far better goalscoring from than Tevez since he came here.

I get your point, but Del Piero wasn't the right example.

Rooney's major weaknesses as a 'complete' CF, in my opinion :

Streaky finishing. Some games he'll be on fire and score 2 goals from 2 half decent oppertunities. Fast forward 3 or 4 games and he might score 0 from 5 good oppertunities.

He'll most likely never be the answer to such a question as "Its the F.A cup final and we're into the 91st minute. Its 0 - 0 and the ball drops to one of your players inside the box. Who would you want it to be?"

Because on some days he'll burst the net with a great goal and on the next day he'll blaze the ball high and wide.

Its that inconsistancy which made Tevez' role as a poacher of important goals last season so important.

Because of this, my opinion is Rooney needs a partner who will score the main bulk of the partnerships' goals. And with Rooney being the great player he is, that will certainly be a lot easier for his partner than it would be at most clubs.

Rooney competes well for high balls, whether he wins them or not the defender hardly ever heads the ball to a team mate and we pick it right back up because of that. Thats his will to compete for everything and make it difficult for the opposition.

With Ronaldo and Tevez heading goals we didnt need more than that from him aerially last season. Though we're talking about Wayne Rooney as a footballer, so yes its true that its one of his weaknesses regardless of whether our side needed more aerial presence last season.

Everything else he's good at or among the best at. He was among the best at creating oppertunities for team mates when he used to play as an off-striker. And his movement is very good, though his actual mobility isnt one of the best.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Brwned please just give it up, this getting is painful.

What he said, and those tedious stats have very little to do with Pogues views on whether he played in different areas of the pitch in both competitions.

To be fair, Brwned was just clarifying Mcfeckwit's claim. Which is clearly ludicrous, but was getting lost in all the usual tangential nonsense.

 

[Ekeke]

You're actually trying to make an argument that it has anything to do with the competition, rather than the fact that he just happened to be in the right position in those particular situations?

Which is the entire point. He's been in the right position to tuck them away in the champions league.

He's barely ever been in the league.

Thats why there's such a difference in his goalscoring in those competitions. He's not been that wasteful in the league (though he's hardly been clinical either) he's just 'happened' to have had better, easier chances in those champions league matches than in the league. You can call it luck, or you can call it positioning.

 

[Bilbo]

Tevez and Berbatov both obviously like to ply their trade around the penalty area rather than inside it. Surely this is obvious.

The one difference at the moment is Tevez gets around the pitch more, and you cannot play a fluid front three if one of those three is not fluid.

I'm sure Ferguson will figure out a way to get the best out of Berbatov, unfortunately at the moment his preferred suggestion seems to be to use Ronaldo in a wider position, which not only blunts our best attacking player, but also hasn't really dragged any decent performances out of Berbatov.

Back to the drawing board

 

[Ekeke]

You're mental.

You clearly dont remember his goals last season. The vast majority of those in the league were tucked in from 10 yards or so, from crossed balls or attempted shots he's got on the end of.

Either that or you dont actually know what a fox in the box is.

 

[Bilbo]

Which is the entire point. He's been in the right position to tuck them away in the champions league.

He's barely ever been in the league.

Pretty sure that this is just a coincidence. I haven't seen any variation is his positional play for United, and its fairly easy to keep track of because he moves less than pretty much any other player in the league.

 

[Brwned]

I'd call it luck, which is completely unrelated to the competitions themselves and you shouldn't be trying to make a distinction between them. He's scored 6 goals in 17 matches rather than '4 goals in 3 champions league matches and 2 goals in 14 league matches'.

Whether it's league goals or Champions League goals shouldn't matter and is completely irrelevant yet you do continue to make a distinction with his lack of league goals, and ignore the Champions League goals.

 

[Ekeke]

I'd call it luck, which is completely unrelated to the competitions themselves and you shouldn't be trying to make a distinction between them. He's scored 6 goals in 17 matches rather than '4 goals in 3 champions league matches and 2 goals in 14 league matches'.

Whether it's league goals or Champions League goals shouldn't matter and is completely irrelevant yet you do continue to make a distinction with his lack of league goals, and ignore the Champions League goals.

Teams tend to use different tactics in the champions league to the premiership. Take Tevez for example. He was sparingly used in the champions league last season and we hardly ever play like we played against Barcelona.

Berbatov is doing something different in the league from when he plays in the champions league in my opinion. That thing is getting on the end of balls in the box. In the league on most occasions he's not even in there.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tevez and Berbatov both obviously like to ply their trade around the penalty area rather than inside it. Surely this is obvious.

The one difference at the moment is Tevez gets around the pitch more, and you cannot play a fluid front three if one of those three is not fluid.

I'm sure Ferguson will figure out a way to get the best out of Berbatov, unfortunately at the moment his preferred suggestion seems to be to use Ronaldo in a wider position, which not only blunts our best attacking player, but also hasn't really dragged any decent performances out of Berbatov.

Back to the drawing board

I would agree with all of that.

But I think Ronaldo's below-par displays are about more than just his position. He still spends a lot of time centrally and finished Saturday's game as an out and out striker. I think his main problem is that he's not really been able to get any kind of momentum, in terms of a few easy games, to rebuild that all-conquering, will-not-be-denied-a-goal confidence he showed last season.

Everything else is spot on though. When Berbatov plays as poorly as he did on Saturday, our whole front-line seems to malfunction.

Of course, it would be nice if Tevez could step up his game to compensate but he's been just as disappointing as Berbatov this season, if not more so.

 

[KeyserSoze]

To be fair, Brwned was just clarifying Mcfeckwit's claim. Which is clearly ludicrous, but was getting lost in all the usual tangential nonsense.

Yeah, was not having a go at Brwned, I think he is a good poster.

Was more commenting on the way he always clarifies and brings some sense to the endless discussions they have, which always lead to something not consistent with the original point. Do not understand how he has the patience myself.

The fact there has been little variation in positional play depending on competition seems obvious to me.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You clearly dont remember his goals last season. The vast majority of those in the league were tucked in from 10 yards or so, from crossed balls or attempted shots he's got on the end of.

Either that or you dont actually know what a fox in the box is.

Erm... This might be news to you but pretty much every striker scores most of their goals from inside the box. It's easier to score from there, you see.

This does, of course, have feck all to do with the areas of the pitch they occupy most frequently.

Oh and I do know what a fox in the box is. And Tevez is not one of them. Never has been.

You're mental, by the way.

EDIT: All of Darren Fletcher's goals this season have come from in or around the 6-yard box. Is he a fox in the box?

 

[Brwned]

Teams tend to use different tactics in the champions league to the premiership. Take Tevez for example. He was sparingly used in the champions league last season and we hardly ever play like we played against Barcelona.

Berbatov is doing something different in the league from when he plays in the champions league in my opinion. That thing is getting on the end of balls in the box. In the league on most occasions he's not even in there.

One goal was from a corner, one was from a free kick against Celtic. Against Aalborg one was gifted to him outside of the box.

Nothing to do with positioning.

 

[Younited.7]

Ekeke: your "proof" doesn't actually support the empirical judgement/assertion that you originally made: Berbatov has been utilised, or himself played a different role - depending on the competition. It doesn't substantiate the notion - your evidence is circumstantial and is a flimsy prop to your overall argument.

Off the top of my head i can think of three important goals that Tevez scored last season: a) Liverpool b) Tottenham c) Lyon. All from corners if i remember correctly.

Firstly, i think it is ridiculous to suggest that Tevez gets into the box more because a) he doesn't b) you can't muster any facts to support that view.

Secondly, the tirade of abuse that has been directed at Berbatov - despite his decent overall contribution - is sweeping and unjustified. Our team has become a tad unbalanced because of his addition and other factors, but as always, we meet the process of improvement firstly in troughs and later in peaks - Rome was not built in a day and we are nowhere near our top form yet. It will come, certainly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, was not having a go at Brwned, I think he is a good poster.

Was more commenting on the way he always clarifies and brings some sense to the endless discussions they have, which always lead to something not consistent with the original point. Do not understand how he has the patience myself.

The fact there has been little variation in positional play depending on competition seems obvious to me.

Me neither. Hence I've resorted to childish insults.

It's not big it's not clever but it's either that or ram my own face through my monitor and weep bleeding tears of frustration.

 

[Ekeke]

One goal was from a corner, one was from a free kick against Celtic. Against Aalborg one was gifted to him outside of the box.

Nothing to do with positioning.

He was in the box and got on the end of balls into him.

He's had a total lack of both in the league despite playing over 4 times as many matches in it.

If its luck, are we saying he was lucky to score his goals in the champions league or unlucky to only have scored 2 in the league?

The vast majority of shots Berbatov has taken but not scored from in the league didnt go in because they werent very good, rather than hitting the post or forcing the keeper to make a world class save.

I'd rather say that Berbatov has played with a similar knack of getting into the box and getting on the end of things in the champions league, to Tevez' displays last season. Rather than say "He was lucky." because you can engineer your own luck or at least shape it by doing the right thing on a football pitch rather than the wrong thing.

In contrast there have been many, many, in fact pretty much all matches where I've felt Berbatov is operating too deep and should get into the box more often. In the champions league he's done it enough to get his goals.