Between our scouting and recruitment, how do we keep getting it so wrong?

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

In recent years - our club has actually made many smart recruiting goals. Our focus on youth has been repaid ten times over and the signings this year make sense and mainly have retained or increased in value.

A LOT of our “nightmare” signings have come in two positions. Striker (Holjund) and keeper (Onana).

Since Mourinho - I’d back our signings to be the equivalent of most major clubs if I’m being genuinely honest.

There are two sides to the coin. Recruitment and selling.

I think last summer and in January the recruitment has been ok. Ugarte, De Ligt, Maz, Zirkzee, Dorgu and Heaven all have done ok, and individually haven’t cost a fortune. I think with any of those players, we could move them on relatively easily if actually we decide they don’t fit/ aren’t good enough.

No club has perfect recruitment, and if 50% of signings turn out well, then that’s a pretty good ratio.

I would say our recruitment over the past 10 years has been very poor. Look at the money spent on Pogba, Maguire, Sancho, Antony, Rasmus - and analyse the value we got out of those players?

Pogba and Maguire have been relative successes - but not worth the financial outlay - but at least have got something out of them.

Sancho, Antony and Rasmus (I still have a little hope..) have been really poor - and the issue now is that we struggle to sell them. Add in Mount, Onana, Martinez (some might think that’s controversial), Alexis and it’s a history of appalling signings.

Selling players is potentially a bigger issue. We could have sold Henderson, Lingard, Bailly, Lindelof, Rashford for far more than we got/ will get for them. You can’t time the market perfectly of course - but we have just kept players for years beyond what we should have.

We git Di Maria and Lukako wrong - but they were sold quickly. That’s what we should have done with all the others.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

This is interesting. How many of the traditional "big" clubs are being run well?

Bayern probably sleepwalked to their last few titles. They'll probably win Bundesliga this season but I'm not convinced we should be looking to copy them yet.

Barca are still a mess off the pitch but have found a way to be successful on the pitch. Perhaps that would be the model in the short term.

city have been well run but they have had: a)the financial backing of a nation state and b)one of the greatest managers of the modern era. Let's see how they rebuild. With all the uncertainty around the 115 charges, who knows what happens next with them.

Real Madrid have seemingly done things well on and off the pitch but their plans/strategy would be hard to replicate outside of Spain.

The model we need to probably look at is over at Anfield. It will be interesting to see how well Slot does when their inevitable bigger rebuild starts and the big personalities in that dressing room start leaving.

The Italian clubs always seem to be a few game from a crisis and the ultras threatening their players.

There's no such thing as a "well-run" club. They all make blunders and go through peaks and troughs. There was a study a few years back, since the thread is about recruitment, stating that no more than 45% of football transfers really work out. None of the other big boys have fallen so far behind (and remain far behind for so long), though, after having spent so much money. And it's not because they have managed to devise a mystic model that leads to success. They just keep their eyes open. For the past 15 years, everyone (except Real Madrid, but i agree that what works for them would probably not work for the rest) is trying to strike their preferable balance between Pep's possession and Klopp's verticality. Managerial appointments, academy operations and recruitment are dictated by this logic because, until further notice, it seems to be the "surest" way to success. Well, almost everyone... What i'd like to replicate from Liverpool is their data-driven approach. I've said it many times that it's not just the manager. Until we see two buses full of experts arriving at OT to help him out, we can't expect much. But it's not a Liverpool thing. Tactics have become so demanding, most clubs nowadays try their best to allow their managers to work solely on them.

 

[Lentwood]

Not going to dig out any one player - with our litany of awful buys it's easier to classify by players who actually look the part - but collectively, why are we so bad at this side of the game? I don't think it's even a slight exaggeration to say we have the worst transfer record in football per bang for buck ratio and successful signings over the last 2, 5 or 10 year periods. Indeed, the last time a thread was made asking posters who had been outright successes here in the post-Fergie era, it came back with Bruno, Amad and not much else, or certainly not even a consensus on even a handful of other good buys in what was then 10 years, and things have gotten even worse since then.

One way to circumvent terrible scouting and recruitment is to simply purchase as many touted S and A tier talents as you can - a player like Yoro, for example, was classed as the best prospective CB talent in the game before we laid eyes on him (insofar as being actively linked); I believe the Arsenal kids we scooped up lately were also said to be destined for big things, which essentially means others had done the groundwork and there's not much of anything for our lot to screw up, as they are so apt at doing when asked to unearth talent or find legitimate diamonds in the rough.

The lack of technical ability in the players we've gone about paying over the odds for is only outdone by the ill-fitting nature of the vast number in terms of physical suitability and/or fitness to the league and our cause. I don't get how so many other clubs - so-called minnows or lesser ones - are able to bring in talent from as far flung as South America and have them not only come in as bargains but be worth north of £60m within a season or two on a regular basis yet we've not managed to make a star out of a single "no name" since, perhaps, Chicarito? Is that correct? We've gone from a club who scouted the likes of Nemanja Vidic playing football in Russia; Ole Gunnar Solskjaer being plucked from relative obscurity in Norway; de Gea going on to be a world class keeper; Rafael being brought in from Fluminese (when we were able to make amazing finds on the other side of the planet); Nani from Sporting, to not being able to pick a talent of our own accord. The list goes on and on and I've made sure to parse players who were already considered special talents before they got here like: Park, who was tearing it up in Holland and the CL, or Cantona, who was always known as a mercurial nightmare before even setting foot in England and so on and so forth.

We also used to be superb in both the domestic and big buy markets. In fact, I think it's fair to say we were only middling in the market you're supposed to be middling in, which is the literal speculative punt market, where you know beforehand that these players might've been lucky to even make the squad, let alone go on to become first team regulars. Our general quality in recruitment now is worse than our level of success in the speculative punt market of those times, it's fair to say. But how has this happened? It'd be understandable if players coming in were very good to outstanding as individuals who were just a bad fit with us, but it seems to be deeper than that as we are more likely to buy objectively bad players in their peer group, than good ones who other clubs would immediately take off our hands if offered for what we paid for them.

Honestly, this department has been one of the most surreal to follow since 2013 when the great man left. We've gone from one of the best on the planet at sniffing out talent to not seeing/recruiting it unless already propped up by another clubs' ability to hone. At unders level, we're still actually very good at recruitment and the academy pushing through talent seems a more likely route to us having special talent in the first team than our ability and skill in the big boy market to outright buy in brilliance.

Is it unfair to state we're close to being able to field a 'were never good enough from the outset' xi? Meaning players who came in below the bar and have not outdone there "X" rate. As our purse strings tighten, it feels as though our recruitment has to suddenly take a leap back to something like it used to be for us to have a prayer of zipping up the table to the CL places let alone challenging for the title. Is it beyond those who are currently in those departments to achieve this? The S tier route isn't really an option for us; that is the blueprint for Madrid of the current age. A tier is an expensive and mostly unpredictable ride; it seems to be the domain of the likes of Chelsea and PSG now, but what I'm really set on is our ability to operate in the B and C tier markets where the likes of Liverpool, Newcastle, Bayern and so forth tend to thrive and turn lesser regarded or sought after players into coveted ones. Why can't we do that? Or can we? Is our recruitment likely to turn around any time soon, in your opinion? Do you feel like things are looking like they're about to pick up?

A total lack of understanding about what makes a modern footballer.

Newcastle are a perfect example of how a modern PL opponent might look. There's really no player, besides potentially Isak and Tonali, with any real standout technical attributes - but every single one of them is big, fast, strong and can run all day.

In contrast, under EtH, we prioritised technical footballers, which is the Dutch way. We've a squad that largely consists of slow, doddery, unfit, weak footballers.

Sure, in a purely technical "exam", many of them would compare pretty favourably to their counterparts at say, Newcastle and Forest, for example.

The problem is, if you can't run and you're not aggressive, you're next to useless in the modern game.

 

[Captain Barnacles]

I think what we need is a factory reset, buy proven PL players, even if they're not the most glamorous names and steady the ship, forget players from other leagues for now, they're just going to die on the hill in this current team

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

As others have said, a lack of cohesive vision for how the squad should play and what traits are to be looked for in targets to aid that vision.

Instead it seems it's largely been manager driven, where we let Mourinho come in and want to bin off our best young talent and player (Martial) to bring in Sanchez and Perisic because they are more veteran players. Or we let Ole spend 130m on Maguire and AWB. And then Ten Hag got to spank 600m on what seemed largely like players he was familiar with and wanted himself.

Bringing in a manager recommendation for cheap is fine every now and then. I had no issues when we wanted Eriksen for Ten Hag for free. But when you let every manager act as the de facto Sporting Director as well, and have complete buffoons having to get the deals over the line, it turns every summer into a circus.

 

[Superunknown]

A total lack of understanding about what makes a modern footballer.

Newcastle are a perfect example of how a modern PL opponent might look. There's really no player, besides potentially Isak and Tonali, with any real standout technical attributes - but every single one of them is big, fast, strong and can run all day.

In contrast, under EtH, we prioritised technical footballers, which is the Dutch way. We've a squad that largely consists of slow, doddery, unfit, weak footballers.

Sure, in a purely technical "exam", many of them would compare pretty favourably to their counterparts at say, Newcastle and Forest, for example.

The problem is, if you can't run and you're not aggressive, you're next to useless in the modern game.

This is 100% it for me. It's one of the reasons why Bruno has been a success here and the likes of Sancho hasn't been. Bruno has that aggressive edge to his game and he can run and run within games, whilst also somehow never picking up injuries either. We should have been filling the squad with other similar players, at least in terms of that aggression and intensity. Importantly, he also scores and assists, so we get that contribution, too.

As much as I am beginning to like him and can see his usefulness at times in very specific situations, Zirkzee is the complete opposite. He's at the other end of the scale. He has no speed, next to no aggression, and his output in terms of goals and assists is very poor. Against aggressive opponents, which make up a large quantity of PL teams, he isn't going to work. He's the sort of signing that gives us a different dimension in an already functioning team or a team that are already winning things, but he's not going to take us from our current league position into the top 3. Bruno is the sort of signing that will do that. Zirkzee isn't.

 

[Daydreamer]

A total lack of understanding about what makes a modern footballer.

Newcastle are a perfect example of how a modern PL opponent might look. There's really no player, besides potentially Isak and Tonali, with any real standout technical attributes - but every single one of them is big, fast, strong and can run all day.

In contrast, under EtH, we prioritised technical footballers, which is the Dutch way. We've a squad that largely consists of slow, doddery, unfit, weak footballers.

Sure, in a purely technical "exam", many of them would compare pretty favourably to their counterparts at say, Newcastle and Forest, for example.

The problem is, if you can't run and you're not aggressive, you're next to useless in the modern game.

I’m not sure this is actually true. How many United players are technically proficient enough to receive the ball under pressure and retain possession? That is an absolute minimum requirement at most PL teams (top teams even have keepers comfortable on the ball) and yet there are precious few at United.

This has lead to the overrating of players like Mainoo, who stands out as being one of the few players at the clubs who is calm in possession, but actually has multiple other weaknesses in his game.

Newcastle didn’t win only because their players are stronger or faster. They won because United are incapable of playing in the opponents half and crumble when faced with a coordinated press. That is very much a technical problem.

This is why United’s decent performances have either been against some of the worst sides in PL history in the bottom three, or shutting up shop against the top sides. As soon as they meet an even halfway decent side and try to bring the game to them, the gap in technical ability becomes instantly apparent.

 

[JPRouve]

I’m not sure this is actually true. How many United players are technically proficient enough to receive the ball under pressure and retain possession? That is an absolute minimum requirement at most PL teams (top teams even have keepers comfortable on the ball) and yet there are precious few at United.

This has lead to the overrating of players like Mainoo, who stands out as being one of the few players at the clubs who is calm in possession, but actually has multiple other weaknesses in his game.

Newcastle didn’t win only because their players are stronger or faster. They won because United are incapable of playing in the opponents half and crumble when faced with a coordinated press. That is very much a technical problem.

This is why United’s decent performances have either been against some of the worst sides in PL history in the bottom three, or shutting up shop against the top sides. As soon as they meet an even halfway decent side and try to bring the game to them, the gap in technical ability becomes instantly apparent.

That's the number one issue. United has too many average technicians, top teams have above average and elite technicians. The other thing is that United lacks 1v1 players both offensively and defensively players that can dominate an opponent with and without the ball in 1v1 situations. Now could United have better overall athletes? Absolutely but it's not what makes the difference between top level Football and the rest, what we need primarily are better technicians and in some key areas more cerebral players.

 

[red_de_pologne]

It's actually baffling if you look at our recruitment in recent years that no one thought of adding some physicality.

Since 2020/21

Amad
VDB
Telles
Cavani
Sancho
Varane
Ronaldo
Eriksen
Malacia
Casemiro
Antony
Martinez
Mount
Hojlund
Ugarte
Dorgu
Mazraoui
Zirkzee

Not a single tall, strong player ... Zirkzee has the posture but isn't physical at all

 

[quadrant]

The problem is well discussed at this point; I don't think there's any secret to it.

• A lack of vision meant we had no idea what kind of football we wanted to play as a club; we just went with whatever manager seemed cool in the moment.
• This led to a mish-mash squad that didn't suit any manager we appointed.
• This, in turn, meant we had to splash huge amounts of cash on risky purchases to try and fix the worst problems that each new manager faced, just to give them a fighting chance for a season or two.
• Despite that, the unfit for purpose squad meant we were never far away from a doom spiral into crisis, which meant our club became a terrible place for people to come and improve. Almost everyone we buy ends up going backwards.
• The lack of planning also means we're behind the curve when it comes to playing style. We lacked technical prowess when high possession was the order of the day, and we lack physicality as that comes back into the game.
• Our data analytics have consistently been 10 years behind the curve, meaning we've missed out on opportunities to pick up quality players from other leagues, and largely eye-balled players we spent a lot of money on, rather than doing proper due diligence

The upshot: a Frankenstein's monster of a squad, that cost a tonne to assemble, but not really suitable for any particular playing style, with flakey players purchased on whether they did well somewhere else

However, while its early days, I do think that the purchases by Ineos have been generally pretty sensible. While none of them have fit into the mould of, say, Kante going to Leicester, where they spotted an unnaturally good but little known talent, those purchases are rare anyway. Rather the aim should simply be to make sure that each player you is better, and a better fit, than the player they're replacing. Do that long enough and you build a squad to compete.

 

[eire-red]

Our historical success under SAF was built on buying the best domestic players in the PL in key positions (Rooney, Rio, Carrick, Tevez, plenty other examples going further back into the 90's) supplemented foreign buys of players who are about to enter their prime / who we can develop, and our youth academy.

I think the only players who could maybe fit that mould in the last decade, you have Bruno, maybe you could say Mount, Shaw and Amad. Then obvs Rashford / Greenwood etc in terms of developing youth.

Maybe if we carried this approach to modern day and if we were still competitice, instead we'd probably be looking at Haaland, Rice and Palmer, just for a silly for example, in the starting 11. A far cry from what we have now.

I think there's a vicious cycle in play. We can't sign that one player because we always have to plug 4 or 5 holes in the squad. Signing Rice (pre Arsenal move obvs) or Isak or someone we desperately need is a likely to be your one big move in the summer, and you might supplement that with a more prospective buy and maybe a youth academy call up. The top teams that only need those one or two incremental improvements to freshen up the squad can do that. We don't have that luxury.

I think the pressure of getting United back to the top has influenced our strategy of "go big in first 2 windows of a new manager, be challenging by second season and win by the third season". We've seen that with pretty much all the hires. Our approach hasn't been measured, we're trying to build a title winning team in two transfer windows. That's fine if you have a pretty good base, but we haven't had that at all.

When you couple that rushed approach with a distinct lack of vision at the top for what we're trying to achieve, this is what you get. Moyes to LVG to Jose to Ole to ETH and now to Amorim. Failure to identify the profile of coach we want has been the root cause. Relying on those coaches to build a team in their vision has been the second failure. It needs to be the other way around.

Now we are seeing the result of a manager new to the league, with a lot of players new to the league, in a new system, with a bunch of square pegs in round holes. We don't have any of the traits that have brought us success down the years, because we've lost any semblance of a footballing identity and haven't had the people in charge capable of making decisions.

 

[next_number_seven]

Not going to dig out any one player - with our litany of awful buys it's easier to classify by players who actually look the part - but collectively, why are we so bad at this side of the game? I don't think it's even a slight exaggeration to say we have the worst transfer record in football per bang for buck ratio and successful signings over the last 2, 5 or 10 year periods. Indeed, the last time a thread was made asking posters who had been outright successes here in the post-Fergie era, it came back with Bruno, Amad and not much else, or certainly not even a consensus on even a handful of other good buys in what was then 10 years, and things have gotten even worse since then.

One way to circumvent terrible scouting and recruitment is to simply purchase as many touted S and A tier talents as you can - a player like Yoro, for example, was classed as the best prospective CB talent in the game before we laid eyes on him (insofar as being actively linked); I believe the Arsenal kids we scooped up lately were also said to be destined for big things, which essentially means others had done the groundwork and there's not much of anything for our lot to screw up, as they are so apt at doing when asked to unearth talent or find legitimate diamonds in the rough.

The lack of technical ability in the players we've gone about paying over the odds for is only outdone by the ill-fitting nature of the vast number in terms of physical suitability and/or fitness to the league and our cause. I don't get how so many other clubs - so-called minnows or lesser ones - are able to bring in talent from as far flung as South America and have them not only come in as bargains but be worth north of £60m within a season or two on a regular basis yet we've not managed to make a star out of a single "no name" since, perhaps, Chicarito? Is that correct? We've gone from a club who scouted the likes of Nemanja Vidic playing football in Russia; Ole Gunnar Solskjaer being plucked from relative obscurity in Norway; de Gea going on to be a world class keeper; Rafael being brought in from Fluminese (when we were able to make amazing finds on the other side of the planet); Nani from Sporting, to not being able to pick a talent of our own accord. The list goes on and on and I've made sure to parse players who were already considered special talents before they got here like: Park, who was tearing it up in Holland and the CL, or Cantona, who was always known as a mercurial nightmare before even setting foot in England and so on and so forth.

We also used to be superb in both the domestic and big buy markets. In fact, I think it's fair to say we were only middling in the market you're supposed to be middling in, which is the literal speculative punt market, where you know beforehand that these players might've been lucky to even make the squad, let alone go on to become first team regulars. Our general quality in recruitment now is worse than our level of success in the speculative punt market of those times, it's fair to say. But how has this happened? It'd be understandable if players coming in were very good to outstanding as individuals who were just a bad fit with us, but it seems to be deeper than that as we are more likely to buy objectively bad players in their peer group, than good ones who other clubs would immediately take off our hands if offered for what we paid for them.

Honestly, this department has been one of the most surreal to follow since 2013 when the great man left. We've gone from one of the best on the planet at sniffing out talent to not seeing/recruiting it unless already propped up by another clubs' ability to hone. At unders level, we're still actually very good at recruitment and the academy pushing through talent seems a more likely route to us having special talent in the first team than our ability and skill in the big boy market to outright buy in brilliance.

Is it unfair to state we're close to being able to field a 'were never good enough from the outset' xi? Meaning players who came in below the bar and have not outdone there "X" rate. As our purse strings tighten, it feels as though our recruitment has to suddenly take a leap back to something like it used to be for us to have a prayer of zipping up the table to the CL places let alone challenging for the title. Is it beyond those who are currently in those departments to achieve this? The S tier route isn't really an option for us; that is the blueprint for Madrid of the current age. A tier is an expensive and mostly unpredictable ride; it seems to be the domain of the likes of Chelsea and PSG now, but what I'm really set on is our ability to operate in the B and C tier markets where the likes of Liverpool, Newcastle, Bayern and so forth tend to thrive and turn lesser regarded or sought after players into coveted ones. Why can't we do that? Or can we? Is our recruitment likely to turn around any time soon, in your opinion? Do you feel like things are looking like they're about to pick up?

Lots of reasons.

Constant change of managers doesn't help.

Also lots of changes behind the scenes.

No clear style of play.

Scouting's much more difficult now as everyone has access to the same data and footage and we can't really outspend other clubs either.

I went to the under 17 euros in Dublin and the crowd was full of scouts. A young French guy was an obvious standout. I'll try to find his name.

We seem to panic and try quick fixes.

ETH's signings were mostly terrible and he has set us back 2 years I think.

LVG was a good coach but his signings weren't good either.

Fergie got 80 to 90% of his signings right.

I honestly think I'd be a better scout than ours. I knew Sancho, Antony, Maguire and Hojlund weren't good enough.

I like Mount as a footballer but we didn't need him.

 

[next_number_seven]

Lots of reasons.

Constant change of managers doesn't help.

Also lots of changes behind the scenes.

No clear style of play.

Scouting's much more difficult now as everyone has access to the same data and footage and we can't really outspend other clubs either.

I went to the under 17 euros in Dublin and the crowd was full of scouts. A young French guy was an obvious standout. I'll try to find his name.

We seem to panic and try quick fixes.

ETH's signings were mostly terrible and he has set us back 2 years I think.

I honestly think I'd be a better scout than ours. I knew Sancho, Antony, Maguire and Hojlund weren't good enough.

I like Mount as a footballer but we didn't need him.

Adil Aouchiche was the French kid.

 

[Lentwood]

I’m not sure this is actually true. How many United players are technically proficient enough to receive the ball under pressure and retain possession? That is an absolute minimum requirement at most PL teams (top teams even have keepers comfortable on the ball) and yet there are precious few at United.

This has lead to the overrating of players like Mainoo, who stands out as being one of the few players at the clubs who is calm in possession, but actually has multiple other weaknesses in his game.

Newcastle didn’t win only because their players are stronger or faster. They won because United are incapable of playing in the opponents half and crumble when faced with a coordinated press. That is very much a technical problem.

This is why United’s decent performances have either been against some of the worst sides in PL history in the bottom three, or shutting up shop against the top sides. As soon as they meet an even halfway decent side and try to bring the game to them, the gap in technical ability becomes instantly apparent.

The same Mainoo who started the European Championships Final at 18?

I'm no rose-tinted glassed fan, but our players clearly do have technical ability. Certainly better technical ability than the likes of Fulham, Brentford, West Ham, Palace etc...all teams against whom we've struggled this season.

Don't read too much into the Newcastle game, it was sandwiched between two very important European ties and we fielded a weakened XI against a good side on a high at the moment away from home in a hostile environment.

If you watched United regularly you'd see that Maguire, De Ligt, Yoro, Martinez and Mazraoui all have excellent technical ability for defenders - I refuse to believe, in fact I outright dispute, that Fabian Schar and Dan Burn are better technically than those five.

The problem with all five is that none of them are quick, bar Yoro. Martinez is a garden gnome, Maguire turns like an oil tanker, De Ligt is a warrior but at best he's moderately quick and Mazraoui is more of a technician than a brilliant athlete.

Likewise, in midfield, I accept Mainoo isn't a fantastic athlete (yet, but there's time) but hes great in possession, Eriksen is one of the best technicians I have seen but he has a pacemaker (!), Casemiro's has how many CL trophies?...but his legs went two seasons ago and Ugarte, whilst super-aggressive, is also one-paced. Even Bruno, who is aggressive, is really slow and not especially strong - despite being technically fantastic.

Garnacho is a midget who's easily knocked off the ball, Zirzkee is outstanding technically but moves like a three-piece suite and Hojlund is like a piece of spaghetti.

Now...look at Palace or Bournemouth or Forest...three teams above United in the table, name me one player from those three sides who isn't fast and strong? Wharton, maybe? Can't think of too many more...the rest are all athletes!

And finally, the reason we look even worse than ever under Amorim is precisely because his system needs athletes to function. It relies on the two 10s running into the channels. It relies on the CF holding off defenders to link the play and making runs behind to create space. It relies on the wing backs bombing up and down all game. It relies on the three CBs being super aggressive and proactive (for an example of how not to defend in this system, see Lindelof, the World's most passive defender)

If United sat in a 4-2-3-1 and played passive, counter attack football, we'd be in the top eight right now. Look at our results under RvN who can't buy a win at Leicester. Look at our results vs Arsenal, City and Liverpool this season i.e. games we have played a bit more conservatively. Our problems begin when we attempt to be more expansive, because gaps appear everywhere because our players can't run!

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Tecnical and physical:

Bruno, our stand out player
Yoro, hopefully
Shaw, but injured a lot
Garnacho, a bit of both but not enough

The rest of the squad members are either tecnical such as Eriksen, Zirkzee, Mazraoui, Martinez, Mainoo and Amad, or physical such as De Ligt, Maguire, Dorgu, and Ugarte. Mount is good at pressing but lack other top qualities. Dalot is always available but lack attacking top qualities. Höjlund is neither technical nor physical despite some speed.

We can't cope with any team pressing us, can't handle the ball in tight areas.

A poor and expensive and unbalanced squad.

 

[giggs-beckham]

What, if anything, can the signing of Dorgu tell us. Maybe not much as its one signing and mid season, he's physical but lacks technical ability for me.

 

[Marwood]

Biggest single reason is the CM and the flat refusal by the club to prioritise players who can receive, manipulate and pass the ball well. Been happening for 15 years now.

If you don't get the CM right everything is a struggle. Get it right and you can play good stuff even if the rest of the team isn't perfect.

 

[Daydreamer]

The same Mainoo who started the European Championships Final at 18?

Yes, that Mainoo. He’s comfortable in possession which makes him stand out at United, but has weaknesses with his positioning, passing range, passing accuracy, top speed, acceleration, agility and stamina. Hence why he doesn’t shine as a midfielder or a 10 in Amorim’s formation.

I'm no rose-tinted glassed fan, but our players clearly do have technical ability. Certainly better technical ability than the likes of Fulham, Brentford, West Ham, Palace etc...all teams against whom we've struggled this season.

You’ve listed a set of teams that have players that would walk into United first starting lineup based on their technical ability. West Ham alone have four (Ward-Prowse, Paqueta, Kudus, Bowen). You struggled against those sides because they’re better at creating chances than United are currently.

Don't read too much into the Newcastle game, it was sandwiched between two very important European ties and we fielded a weakened XI against a good side on a high at the moment away from home in a hostile environment.

I’m not reading too much into the Newcastle game. I’m watching one the world’s biggest clubs have their worst season in the PL era.

You mention Garnacho, Zirkzee and Hojland’s lack of physicality, when that isn’t the major issue for any of them:
- Garnacho is rapid, but has terrible decision-making and doesn’t have the technical ability to pull off much of the low-probability shots and dribbles he attempts.
- Zirkzee is actually unusually tall for someone playing in his position, but lacks the assurance in his abilities to impose himself on games - to the point where even the basics deserted him at one point and he had to be subbed off early.
- And there is nothing wrong with Hojland’s physique… he just has mediocre movement, hold up play and finishing.

If United’s problems could be solved by running around a bit more and being a bit stronger - they would have been solved by now.

 

[abr]

1. Overreliance on managers to shape the squad;
- We let managers kicked players out due to their "supposedly" incompatibility to the manager's football philosophy. Chicharito, Welbeck, Evans, Rafael, Kagawa were being let go by LvG apparently for being incapable of playing ball-possession football and to make it worse, they were let go for pittance only to be replaced by worse set of players coming in with big fees. I think Ole might be the only manager whom the club didnt allow to have much freedom in shaping squad, although it backfired badly with a lot of finished players extending their welcome.

2. Constant change of playing style
- Moyes to LvG to Mourinho to Ole to ETH to Amorim. These managers play different style of football and we have to make sacrifices to accomodate their need so that their system can work. Problem is even after the big sacrifices were made, their systems STILL didnt work and the club had to fire them thus the players bought to play a specific role/ position would have to be let go for loss else their big wages eating out the budget or when it's impossible to let them go (due to their massive fees or massive wages) they become burden for next manager.

3. Lack of a strong capable figurehead.
- Real Madrid have Florentino Perez, Liverpool had Jurgen Klopp, City have Pep, Inter have Beppe Marrotta, PSG have Luis Campos, Barcelona have Joan Laporta (again). All successful clubs seem to have that one person who somehow, someway, makes everything work for them.

It's actually baffling if you look at our recruitment in recent years that no one thought of adding some physicality.

Since 2020/21

Cavani
Varane


Not a single tall, strong player ... Zirkzee has the posture but isn't physical at all

Cavani and Varane were tall and strong players, problem is theyre plagued by constant injuries.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Interms of bringing in young players for the academy, we've done relatively well.

But the first team management of signings has been utterly shambolic. No direction.

 

[El-Manos]

Lots of reasons.

Constant change of managers doesn't help.

Also lots of changes behind the scenes.

No clear style of play.

Scouting's much more difficult now as everyone has access to the same data and footage and we can't really outspend other clubs either.

I went to the under 17 euros in Dublin and the crowd was full of scouts. A young French guy was an obvious standout. I'll try to find his name.

We seem to panic and try quick fixes.

ETH's signings were mostly terrible and he has set us back 2 years I think.

LVG was a good coach but his signings weren't good either.

Fergie got 80 to 90% of his signings right.

I honestly think I'd be a better scout than ours. I knew Sancho, Antony, Maguire and Hojlund weren't good enough.

I like Mount as a footballer but we didn't need him.

Sancho? I thought he looked extremely good when we signed him. Obviously he's proven to be quite shite but that's not an obvious case unlike the others.

 

[next_number_seven]

Sancho? I thought he looked extremely good when we signed him. Obviously he's proven to be quite shite but that's not an obvious case unlike the others.

I saw him play for England around the time we signed him and thought he didn't look great. He lacked pace and power.

His best position was the same as Rashford's also so it wasn't a good signing.

We badly needed a midfielder at the time also so it was a waste of money.

 

[Marwood]

Yes, that Mainoo. He’s comfortable in possession which makes him stand out at United, but has weaknesses with his positioning, passing range, passing accuracy, top speed, acceleration, agility and stamina. Hence why he doesn’t shine as a midfielder or a 10 in Amorim’s formation.

How many full games has he played as a 10 under Amorim and how many of them have you watched?

 

[Mike Smalling]

One of the main reasons is that we constantly negotiate from a position of utter weakness. The squad has gotten to a state, where we are always desperate to fill the biggest gaps in the team. At the same time it has become less and less attractive for players to come here. So we end up overpaying on both the transfer fee and wage in most cases.

It also seems like we are just bad at negotiating fees, perhaps due to not having real alternatives lined up. When it came to buying the likes of Højlund for example, we should have identified two or three targets, so we could walk away if the demands got too high. Instead we get pushed into a choice between severely overpaying or not getting a striker at all.

 

[Marwood]

The same Mainoo who started the European Championships Final at 18?

I'm no rose-tinted glassed fan, but our players clearly do have technical ability. Certainly better technical ability than the likes of Fulham, Brentford, West Ham, Palace etc...all teams against whom we've struggled this season.

Don't read too much into the Newcastle game, it was sandwiched between two very important European ties and we fielded a weakened XI against a good side on a high at the moment away from home in a hostile environment.

If you watched United regularly you'd see that Maguire, De Ligt, Yoro, Martinez and Mazraoui all have excellent technical ability for defenders - I refuse to believe, in fact I outright dispute, that Fabian Schar and Dan Burn are better technically than those five.

The problem with all five is that none of them are quick, bar Yoro. Martinez is a garden gnome, Maguire turns like an oil tanker, De Ligt is a warrior but at best he's moderately quick and Mazraoui is more of a technician than a brilliant athlete.

Likewise, in midfield, I accept Mainoo isn't a fantastic athlete (yet, but there's time) but hes great in possession, Eriksen is one of the best technicians I have seen but he has a pacemaker (!), Casemiro's has how many CL trophies?...but his legs went two seasons ago and Ugarte, whilst super-aggressive, is also one-paced. Even Bruno, who is aggressive, is really slow and not especially strong - despite being technically fantastic.

Garnacho is a midget who's easily knocked off the ball, Zirzkee is outstanding technically but moves like a three-piece suite and Hojlund is like a piece of spaghetti.

Now...look at Palace or Bournemouth or Forest...three teams above United in the table, name me one player from those three sides who isn't fast and strong? Wharton, maybe? Can't think of too many more...the rest are all athletes!

And finally, the reason we look even worse than ever under Amorim is precisely because his system needs athletes to function. It relies on the two 10s running into the channels. It relies on the CF holding off defenders to link the play and making runs behind to create space. It relies on the wing backs bombing up and down all game. It relies on the three CBs being super aggressive and proactive (for an example of how not to defend in this system, see Lindelof, the World's most passive defender)

If United sat in a 4-2-3-1 and played passive, counter attack football, we'd be in the top eight right now. Look at our results under RvN who can't buy a win at Leicester. Look at our results vs Arsenal, City and Liverpool this season i.e. games we have played a bit more conservatively. Our problems begin when we attempt to be more expansive, because gaps appear everywhere because our players can't run!

Agree about the technical capabilities of the defenders, the CB's anyway. It's plenty good enough.

But the problem is that's pretty much where it ends. In front of them we have a lot of very heavy footed players(can't think of another way to describe them).

They generally don't have that ability to create space and angles with a touch, drop of the shoulder, weight shift, switch from one foot to the other. They're all play the way you're facing types. I include Bruno in that as well as much as I love him. He's also kind of a flat footed player. Casemiro's medals don't change what he currently is.

It's why we struggle to progress the ball.

Now we still might be a bit better than some teams in that regard but not enough to make up for the physical shortfall you mention.

 

[Daydreamer]

How many full games has he played as a 10 under Amorim and how many of them have you watched?

I don’t think he’s played many (possibly any) full games as pure 10 under Amorim, at least not in the PL. That’s my point.

The fact that he’s not considered a viable option there when Amorim plays with TWO of them and United clearly need players in that position is indicative of the weaknesses in his game that I mentioned (that you’ve notably not actually engaged with).

But he’s back from injury now, so maybe he’ll prove me wrong and have a run at 10 where he plays well. He’s also young, so there’ll naturally be some development over the next couple years as he grows into his body and gains experience. However, the evidence so far suggests that his strengths do not sufficiently outweigh his weaknesses.

 

[Marwood]

I don’t think he’s played many (possibly any) full games as pure 10 under Amorim, at least not in the PL. That’s my point.

The fact that he’s not considered a viable option there when Amorim plays with TWO of them and United clearly need players in that position is indicative of the weaknesses in his game that I mentioned (that you’ve notably not actually engaged with).

But he’s back from injury now, so maybe he’ll prove me wrong and have a run at 10 where he plays well. He’s also young, so there’ll naturally be some development over the next couple years as he grows into his body and gains experience. However, the evidence so far suggests that his strengths do not sufficiently outweigh his weaknesses.

You said he hasn't shined when played as a 10. Not that he isn't being selected there.

I'd say let somebody actually play a position for a good few games before deciding if they're shining in it or not.

Especially a very talented teenager. You have to give them a minute before conclusively deciding if they're good enough or not.

 

[Daydreamer]

You said he hasn't shined when played as a 10. Not that he isn't being selected there.

I'd say let somebody actually play a position for a good few games before deciding if they're shining in it or not.

Especially a very talented teenager. You have to give them a minute before conclusively deciding if they're good enough or not.

I actually said “he DOESN’T shine as midfielder or 10 in Amorim’s formation”. Which is correct.

He hasn’t shone as a midfielder and hasn’t even been seriously considered as a 10, despite United crying out for someone to play there as you play with, not one, but two 10s.

He doesn’t shine as a 10 in Amorim’s formation. If he did, as a midfielder who likes to get forward, he would be selected to play there. Instead, Amorim chooses to select wingers and strikers somewhat out of position.

It’s very apparent you’d rather be pedantic about my wording rather than discuss the points I made, which makes me suspect that you may very well agree with them.

Of course, he’s young and has a lot of potential (as I said in my previous post). But he has so many parts of his game that need to drastically improve if he is to be a vital player in a top team.

 

[Marwood]

I actually said “he DOESN’T shine as midfielder or 10 in Amorim’s formation”. Which is correct.

He hasn’t shone as a midfielder and hasn’t even been seriously considered as a 10, despite United crying out for someone to play there as you play with, not one, but two 10s.

He doesn’t shine as a 10 in Amorim’s formation. If he did, as a midfielder who likes to get forward, he would be selected to play there. Instead, Amorim chooses to select wingers and strikers somewhat out of position.

It’s very apparent you’d rather be pedantic about my wording rather than discuss the points I made, which makes me suspect that you may very well agree with them.

Of course, he’s young and has a lot of potential (as I said in my previous post). But he has so many parts of his game that need to drastically improve if he is to be a vital player in a top team.

It's not a case of being pedantic.

You're criticising his performances as a 10 when he's barely played there. How is that fair or possible. Literally I think a couple of games there and in one of them he was very good.

It's like me saying Timber hasn't shined as a CB.

Amorim has been learning about his players. It was only just before he got injured he started realising Mainoo might be more suited to the position. In the same way it took months to realise Bruno is likely more suited to the CM role.

I suspect you don't understand how young players develop. Especially young CM's.

When Saka first broke through and was played left back did you criticise his performances as a right winger? Or did him not being selected as a right winger at first mean he wasn't suited to playing there?

 

[Lentwood]

Yes, that Mainoo. He’s comfortable in possession which makes him stand out at United, but has weaknesses with his positioning, passing range, passing accuracy, top speed, acceleration, agility and stamina. Hence why he doesn’t shine as a midfielder or a 10 in Amorim’s formation.



You’ve listed a set of teams that have players that would walk into United first starting lineup based on their technical ability. West Ham alone have four (Ward-Prowse, Paqueta, Kudus, Bowen). You struggled against those sides because they’re better at creating chances than United are currently.


I’m not reading too much into the Newcastle game. I’m watching one the world’s biggest clubs have their worst season in the PL era.

You mention Garnacho, Zirkzee and Hojland’s lack of physicality, when that isn’t the major issue for any of them:
- Garnacho is rapid, but has terrible decision-making and doesn’t have the technical ability to pull off much of the low-probability shots and dribbles he attempts.
- Zirkzee is actually unusually tall for someone playing in his position, but lacks the assurance in his abilities to impose himself on games - to the point where even the basics deserted him at one point and he had to be subbed off early.
- And there is nothing wrong with Hojland’s physique… he just has mediocre movement, hold up play and finishing.

If United’s problems could be solved by running around a bit more and being a bit stronger - they would have been solved by now.

RE : Mainoo - I don't understand your point there. You say he's overrated and that he only stands out at United because he's essentially the best of a bad bunch - then how was he trusted to start for England in a major final? Suppose he only looks good compared to all of England's other midfield options?

Also, four of his attributes you label as being weak are physical attributes. So...we agree on that...but then surely that was my point? That we have some decent/good players who lack physicality.

Physicality means more than just size or pace. You mention Garnacho is quick...he's not slow, but he's not rapid either...and he's really weak, so he's easily knocked off the ball or knocked off his stride. He's not a powerful runner. Likewise, you say Zirzkee is tall...what's that got to do with it? His problems are his speed / acceleration. He's great technically but he's not got the pace to run in behind or the aggression to really fight off CBs.

Bowen and Kudus prove my point. Both fair to average footballers who are good athletes. JWP can't even get into the West Ham side most weeks and Paquta has four goals and zero assists this season in 28 matches - so let's not go overboard about him! Kudus has 3 goals and 2 assists btw...I could go off on a tangent here and talk about how these players are actually not very good but go under the radar because they play for West Ham and don't get scrutinised...but I won't.

Anyway...nobody is denying we have problems, it's blatantly obvious we have problems - and it's not ALL about physicality, but that's certainly a big part of it. Certainly Ralf Rangnick thought as much, he labelled physicality as the number one problem with our squad, and it got worse under EtHs stewardship with his preference for Dutch "technicians"

Amorim had made one signing - Dorgu. A bit raw but a monster of an athlete. You will see much more of those types of signings from United. No more tractor-like CBs or floaty 10s or midfielders with pacemakers...the focus will shift to athleticism as priority #1

 

[Daydreamer]

It's not a case of being pedantic.

You're criticising his performances as a 10 when he's barely played there. How is that fair or possible. Literally I think a couple of games there and in one of them he was very good.

It's like me saying Timber hasn't shined as a CB.

Amorim has been learning about his players. It was only just before he got injured he started realising Mainoo might be more suited to the position. In the same way it took months to realise Bruno is likely more suited to the CM role.

I suspect you don't understand how young players develop. Especially young CM's.

When Saka first broke through and was played left back did you criticise his performances as a right winger? Or did him not being selected as a right winger at first mean he wasn't suited to playing there?

Fine, replace “doesn’t shine” with “is ill-suited for in his current stage of development”.

Saka is probably the worst example you could have thought of to illustrate your point. He had very few weaknesses as a player and so therefore played LB, LWB, RWB, CM, LW and RW all to a very high level. It was apparent that he was a well-rounded player from his very first appearance.

The same is true of Lewis-Skelly. He’s currently being played out of position at LB, but you can tell from:
- The level of his performances (very high)
- The quality of the opposition (very high)
- His style of play (preference for inverting)
That he is likely to shine as (or is well-suited to being) a midfielder. In fact, his biggest weaknesses (defensive positioning and rash tackling) are less magnified in his favoured position of left 8.

I’ve seen plenty of young players develop. Many at my club as well as many at yours. And Mainoo currently has more weaknesses in his game than any of those young talents who went on to become mainstays at the top level. He also doesn’t seem to have the strengths to make up for it. You can be a short, slow asthmatic if you can dictate a game of football the way Scholes could. But if you’re only a fraction away from his level of talent, then you’re not going to be a top player at the highest level.

 

[Powderfinger]

Bad process will lead to bad results. Successful recruitment almost always involves somebody or a group of people in the footballing structure with a clear and forward thinking vision of the football they want the club to play, a clear idea of the characteristics and qualities that players at each position must possess to put that football into practice on the pitch, and then a team of scouts and data analysts that can do their work with those requirements in mind, identifying pools of players with those characteristics and qualities for the manager and DoF to chose from. United has just never had this post-Fergie. In the absence of this kind of operation, there are so many ways for things to go wrong, especially as there is a lot of room for self-interest and bad ideas to take root.

-Woodward recruiting "stars" based on a marketing calculus.
-The club deciding that it needed a "British core" like the old days and investing heavily in mediocre players like Maguire and AWB.
-Managers buying players they already know (ETH most prominently, but Mourinho, LVG, and Moyes did this too) because they're more concerned about their own job than the club's future.
-Lots of agent-driven recruitment, which was really the story of last summer, buying players that agents like Jorge Mendes and Kia Joorabchian wanted to move rather than players that were identified through good process.

 

[lex talionis]

Lots of great points have been made already, but unless I missed there's one other point that at least I think has led to our epic downfall -- that manager after manager has believed that we're only one or two great players away from greatness and thus we went after big names like Sanchez, and then we went after Pogba (maybe it was Pogba first...I can't be sure now) who turned out to be flops and although flops happen, we never rebuilt the squad from the foundation. But on top of all that there was poor scouting, so that we end up with more flops like Hojlund and Onana.

 

[Daydreamer]

RE : Mainoo - I don't understand your point there. You say he's overrated and that he only stands out at United because he's essentially the best of a bad bunch - then how was he trusted to start for England in a major final? Suppose he only looks good compared to all of England's other midfield options?

I'm saying his technique specifically makes United fans overrate him relative to his actual current level. As his international career, its obviously very impressive to start in a major final at such an age, no one is denying that. But I do think it's been overindexed on here. Southgate has been derided on RedCafe for years and virtually no United fans wanted him to be your next Manager. But suddenly his selection of Mainoo is an invaluable data point. The fact that Southgate couldn't construct a functioning midfield when we the likes of Bellingham, Foden and Rice fall in his lap says more about him than it does about Mainoo.

Also, four of his attributes you label as being weak are physical attributes. So...we agree on that...but then surely that was my point? That we have some decent/good players who lack physicality.

The other three were positioning, passing range and passing accuracy - none of which are about physicality. But my point with Mainoo was specifically that his impressive technique has made United fans overrate him. So I was never disagree that he is a decent player who lacks physicality.

Quoting has stopped working, but I don't think that Garnacho is significantly weaker than the average winger, or that Zirkzee is significantly slower than the average 10 or that Hojland is significantly weaker than the average striker. I wouldn't describe any of them as amazing athletes, but as I said before, that's not their primary problem.

In summary, when watching United games, the thing that strikes me first is not your lack of physicality. It's mishit passes, panicking in possession and an inability to build out from the back despite essentially playing with five defenders and two holding midfielders. And the fact that those players are then so far from goal when they receive it means your team is probably doing more unnecessary running than other teams whn you do mount a successful attack.

 

[Lentwood]

I'm saying his technique specifically makes United fans overrate him relative to his actual current level. As his international career, its obviously very impressive to start in a major final at such an age, no one is denying that. But I do think it's been overindexed on here. Southgate has been derided on RedCafe for years and virtually no United fans wanted him to be your next Manager. But suddenly his selection of Mainoo is an invaluable data point. The fact that Southgate couldn't construct a functioning midfield when we the likes of Bellingham, Foden and Rice fall in his lap says more about him than it does about Mainoo.


The other three were positioning, passing range and passing accuracy - none of which are about physicality. But my point with Mainoo was specifically that his impressive technique has made United fans overrate him. So I was never disagree that he is a decent player who lacks physicality.

Quoting has stopped working, but I don't think that Garnacho is significantly weaker than the average winger, or that Zirkzee is significantly slower than the average 10 or that Hojland is significantly weaker than the average striker. I wouldn't describe any of them as amazing athletes, but as I said before, that's not their primary problem.

In summary, when watching United games, the thing that strikes me first is not your lack of physicality. It's mishit passes, panicking in possession and an inability to build out from the back despite essentially playing with five defenders and two holding midfielders. And the fact that those players are then so far from goal when they receive it means your team is probably doing more unnecessary running than other teams whn you do mount a successful attack.

I'm watching Newcastle vs Palace...look at the Newcastle team...all absolute units.

Stand Joelinton next to Eriksen and Ugarte or Schar and Burn next to Victor Lindelof and Mazraoui or Barnes next to Garnacho or Isak next to Hojlund.

There's nothing worse than being physically dominated in football. I played to a reasonable local semi-pro level and I never felt over matched against any player who was a pure technician - even the much better footballers. You fancied yourself against them on a good day if they couldn't run.

What absolutely kills you is when you come against someone who's a better footballer AND a better athlete. You feel like a little kid, knocks the wind right out of your sails.

Nobody is saying it's the only problem we have. Our attack is pitiful. That's problem #2, right behind 'physicality', but for me, getting more legs and more aggression into the team is an absolute must.

Bear in-mind, the question being asked in this thread isn't "what are United's tactical problems?" or "Why are we rubbish?" it's "Why do we keep getting our recruitment wrong?" and my answer is "EtH targeting the wrong profile / not understanding the demands of the PL"

Signings under EtH pre INEOS

Onana - agility and mobility of a fridge freezer

Malacia - brittle, small and slow for a fullback

Martinez - garden gnome and slow

Eriksen - moves like glacial shift, has a pacemaker

Antony - knew the game was up when he skinned Dan Burn, who then proceeded to catch him up

Mount - injures himself watching people run

Casemiro - moves like a rusty Soviet combine harvester

Hojlund - tall and quick but no power or raw aggression. Moves like one of those funny blow-up arm-waving things you see on TV at American car dealerships.

INEOS / EtH

Ugarte - undeniably a good ball winner but bit of a plodder, so gets caught in transition

De Ligt - warrior, but only marginally quicker than Maguire. Could work as the centre centre back in a three.

Mazraoui - great technician but a great athlete.. debatable...certainly not an Amorim WB, so will have to play CB

Zirzkee - tall and a great technician, but has the ferocity and menace of a pot plant and the pace of tar sliding down a wall.

Yoro - bit more like it, has good pace and size, young lad so needs to fill into his frame.

INEOS / Amorim

Heaven - more like it, see Yoro

Dorgu - the blueprint, absolute monster

 

[Dominos]

It is amazing really how bad it has been.

Our recruitment team may well be the equivalent of a waiter who can't carry a plate of food without dropping it all over the floor. Or an accountant who can't use a calculator. Genuine unbelievable level of incompetence.

The problem is there isn't just one single pattern, there's different categories of mistakes
- Big money to players who are too old to justify it - Casemiro, Matic, Sanchez etc.
- Big money on players who don't have the minimum physical attributes to be an elite player in their position - Maguire being one of the slowest moving humans on earth, Martinez being 4ft tall and slow, Zirkzee being painfully slow etc.
- Players with very little technical talent - AWB, Hojlund
- Hollywood signings for the name value rather than whether they're the right fit for the club/team - Pogba, Sancho
- Overspending on every player that no other club would pay that sort of money for, so we're not even overpaying due to competition for the players we're signing
- Ridiculous wages for players who wouldn't be able to get that sort of money elsewhere, so what leverage do these players even have to get such big contracts given we're competing with no other clubs who would offer them more?

 

[RedStarUnited]

Shit managers lads thats all it is. Ole and eventually ETH destroyed us. The squad Ole had when he finished 3rd and 2nd, that squad with a proper coach like I think Amorim is would challenge for the title.

Imagine If Amorim lined up the team below.

Sure the technical ability at the back is low but the one thing this team has is power and strength. Mata apart everyone in this team is a big strong player. And Look what our bench would be like;

Pre injuries Martial
Rashford
Greenwood
Ighalo
Jesse Lingard
McTomanay
Fred
Romero

By 2021 we had added Bruno, Cavani. When everyone was still celebrating finishing second, I was adamant we should sack Ole that summer and get a new manager in (Tuchel was available). The squad Ole had needed a small evolution to take it up a level. What did we do end up doing in 2021? We signed;

Sancho - Slow, Small and physically weak
Ronaldo - Old, slowing and physically weaker
Van De Beek - nothing needs to be said here
Varane - Older, physically weak and injury prone

Summer 21 started the undoing, ETH then cemented it the following year with his bad buys and we have never recovered.

 

[rollingstoned1]

Shit managers lads thats all it is. Ole and eventually ETH destroyed us. The squad Ole had when he finished 3rd and 2nd, that squad with a proper coach like I think Amorim is would challenge for the title.

Imagine If Amorim lined up the team below.

Sure the technical ability at the back is low but the one thing this team has is power and strength. Mata apart everyone in this team is a big strong player. And Look what our bench would be like;

Pre injuries Martial
Rashford
Greenwood
Ighalo
Jesse Lingard
McTomanay
Fred
Romero

By 2021 we had added Bruno, Cavani. When everyone was still celebrating finishing second, I was adamant we should sack Ole that summer and get a new manager in (Tuchel was available). The squad Ole had needed a small evolution to take it up a level. What did we do end up doing in 2021? We signed;

Sancho - Slow, Small and physically weak
Ronaldo - Old, slowing and physically weaker
Van De Beek - nothing needs to be said here
Varane - Older, physically weak and injury prone

Summer 21 started the undoing, ETH then cemented it the following year with his bad buys and we have never recovered.

I agree, the Ronaldo signing in particular fecked us and Ole both IMO. We were on the verge of something between 2021-22 but didn't make the right moves to kick on and go onto the next level instead of going the other way.

 

[Sandikan]

It's actually baffling if you look at our recruitment in recent years that no one thought of adding some physicality.

Since 2020/21

Amad
VDB
Telles
Cavani
Sancho
Varane
Ronaldo
Eriksen
Malacia
Casemiro
Antony
Martinez
Mount
Hojlund
Ugarte
Dorgu
Mazraoui
Zirkzee

Not a single tall, strong player ... Zirkzee has the posture but isn't physical at all

You don't consider Cavani a tall, strong player?

 

[Lentwood]

It's actually baffling if you look at our recruitment in recent years that no one thought of adding some physicality.

Since 2020/21

Not a single tall, strong player ... Zirkzee has the posture but isn't physical at all

Criminal that we allowed EtH to build a squad completely ill-suited to the PL, especially given his lack of experience outside of the Netherlands.

Rangnick in April 2022

'Ralf Rangnick admits his Manchester United players are lacking physicality and aggression and claims it will be difficult for the next manager to change the DNA of the ‘technical’ members in the squad.

Rangnick insists the mentality of his United players is not an issue but feels they were ‘second best’ in aggression and physicality against Leicester.'

Amorim after last night (mentioned it a few times previously too)...

"We must recognise the context, we lack a lot of characteristics in this team, physicality is a big problem. When we play against European teams, we can cope better with that. In the PL we suffer a lot"

Shouldn't be rocket science should it...actually believe at this point EtH might have been working for Abu Dhabi