The problems come down to repeatedly choosing bad managers to lead the team. Its as simple as that. A good manager should first and foremost raise the level of the players at his disposal. If he cannot do that, then he isn't good. Anyone can do well if they had unlimited funds to pick their own 23 players but this is not FIFA career mode. You have to work with what you have and if you cannot improve what you have then there is no jusitifcation to be given more. Unfortunately this club does not understand this simple concept and we end up doubling down on poor managers by giving them damn near blank cheques. We're going to do it again with Amorim as we did with the managers before him and then next season everyone will complain again about how its the players fault.
Between our scouting and recruitment, how do we keep getting it so wrong?
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Yeah pretty much correct, going all the way back to Van Gaal huge mistakes in the transfer market have cost us dearly culminating in the Ten Hag signings have put us where we are, a team fighting relegation for periods this season
It's probably not restricted to the ones we bought. We've sold a few we should have kept.
Personally I think the notable power gap between first team manager and CEO has been a huge problem.
Over the years, there should have been someone like an Ashworth or Wilcox to be in the conversations with Woodward and whoever the manager was at time, and say some of these players are not good enough and they never will be, therefore sell them… and to make a case for alternative players to the players the manager at the time wanted or stupidly Woodward wanted. Klopp wanted Brandt and Liverpool gave him Salah instead and the rest is history.
As such, it was the carousel of Woodward telling the manager ‘make it work’ and then the manager adding his players in, rinse and repeat. Why Woodward did not hire a fecking DoF to work under him is a mystery to me. Either he was egocentric to the max thinking he could do it himself or his bosses in Tampa didn’t want their cash cow tampered with, by trying to run a football club as opposed to a glorified billboard.
Over the years, there should have been someone like an Ashworth or Wilcox to be in the conversations with Woodward and whoever the manager was at time, and say some of these players are not good enough and they never will be, therefore sell them… and to make a case for alternative players to the players the manager at the time wanted or stupidly Woodward wanted. Klopp wanted Brandt and Liverpool gave him Salah instead and the rest is history.
As such, it was the carousel of Woodward telling the manager ‘make it work’ and then the manager adding his players in, rinse and repeat. Why Woodward did not hire a fecking DoF to work under him is a mystery to me. Either he was egocentric to the max thinking he could do it himself or his bosses in Tampa didn’t want their cash cow tampered with, by trying to run a football club as opposed to a glorified billboard.
This is why managers should usually have to take some of the responsibility for failed signings even though people say "it's not their job". They have a veto on any player we sign, they should know which positions we need filling, and communicate the profile and qualities that the player needs, and from there the club helps them find that player, and he signs off on the signing if he's happy they've found a player with the right profile.
We seem to always lack a manager who has a coherent idea on what type of team they want to build and the qualities the players will need to fulfil their role in that team.
Ole was all over the place, his first signings in Maguire and AWB basically confirmed we couldn't play out from the back to an acceptable level and couldn't play expansive football with a high line because we have one of the slowest centre back ever to play the game. Van De Beek - what was the point in that signing? Sancho's lack of physicality, Telles lack of physicality, Ronaldo changing the whole pressing dynamic of the team because he was almost 40 years old. Literally just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.
Ten Hag even worse. Rebuilding our midfield with two pensioners in Casemiro and Eriksen and wondering why teams run all over us. A centre back who's short and slow. Malacia short and slow. Mason Mount - what was the point, of all the profiles of midfielders we needed he signed the one of least use to us. We needed a goalscorer in the summer, we signed Zirkzee who has a poor goal record and is one of the slowest attackers in the league.
It's partly why I'm willing to give Amorim a couple of transfer windows because at the very least he's recognised the physicality problem we have and the physical demands of the league. He's also been involved in a successful squad overhaul at Sporting, although that will obviously be more difficult here. His biggest problem will be that players with the right physical qualities may not have the technical qualities, as players with both of those tend to be very expensive. We don't want to end up with a team of athletes but very little footballing ability. And he'll have the least money to spend of all managers in the last 12 years. Arguably, we've already seen this start to play out with Dorgu.
This summer will be a real test for the new structure. I was quite confident but after seeing Dorgu I'm left a bit confused as to what they're scouting.
I have sympathy for our past managers who get blamed for failed transfers.
It’s the club who hasn’t helped them. Ideally, the club should be handing the entire transfer process with inputs from the manager. We didn’t have that. We had idiots running the club.
I take some encouragement from what I have seen from INEOS but there is a long way to go. As a sign of progress, we can say that all of the seniors players signed since INEOS took charge are getting game time (when fit) and are not letting the club down. Once could ask for more but it’s a start at least.
It’s the club who hasn’t helped them. Ideally, the club should be handing the entire transfer process with inputs from the manager. We didn’t have that. We had idiots running the club.
I take some encouragement from what I have seen from INEOS but there is a long way to go. As a sign of progress, we can say that all of the seniors players signed since INEOS took charge are getting game time (when fit) and are not letting the club down. Once could ask for more but it’s a start at least.
I like Ugarte, De Ligt, Yoro and Heaven alot, and think Zirk is a very good squad option.
Dorgu though..
Dorgu though..
Not all are going to be hits. I bet Dorgu will end up a more important player for us than Heaven who everyone loves at the moment. The thing all the INEOS signings have in common is they are physically more robust and we stuck to a price and were prepared to walk if clubs took the piss. You could argue that the new players are more football first as opposed to just singing the most famous player we can. Hopefully the plan will become more clear as things settle down next season.
Most of it seems to have stuck (around) as evidenced by our current squad.
They have to take some responsibility for me.
They have a veto on transfers, I've never heard our managers complain they've had players forced on them. Some managers have also actively pushed for signings that they wanted who have then failed. It's also the sign of a poor manager who isn't able to recognise the physicality of the premier league and how that needs to effect your signings. I very much doubt the club have said "we don't actually have a recruitment team so you'll have to find identify players yourself".
Obviously the club need to be stronger in overruling managers who want players they don't think are right.
It's the job of the manager to know what type of team they want to build and the profile of player that is needed in each position, communicate that to the recruitment team and sign off on the players that are then presented to them. For example, if as a manager you insist that you have fast centre backs so you can play expansive and higher up the pitch, there's no way they club is then forcing painfully slow centre backs on you against your will - the recruitment team will have to identify centre backs with pace to select from.
That isn't to say our recruitment team haven't been horrendous, because they have.
I just don’t understand why we now have the physicality problems. A few years ago we were the best physically and that’s why we were having so many comeback wins. We simply outlasted opponents with physicality and quality. What happened?
Totally. If you're not doing data driven recruitment, you're not running a serious operation. And I'm not sure if we are.
The original post is pretty lengthy, but a brief response has been that the culture of the executive's, the standards, focus, desire, principles, committment and attention.. all have fallen..Ed Woodward was terrible, absolutely terrible for the club. He wasn't interested in football, footballers, the actual game. So this culture became synonymous with the squad.. think Lukaku, Sanchez, Lindgard. This became the standard of player we were satisfied with. So new players were of this standard and mindset. Look at Martial.
Then we have Ole, ETH..both of whom were way out of their league.
Then we have Ole, ETH..both of whom were way out of their league.
I'd be shocked considering he's not great at defending and is not great going forward. If he was more proactive sure but he's often always on his heels.
It isn't as simple as this, but I do agree that Amorim needs replacing. The recruitment has also been abysmal however.
Shouldn't be confusing at all - we're targeting athletes and it's about time.
No more technicians who can't run. No more "names", no more sicknotes, no more stop-gaps. If you can't bench 100KG, run 100m in 11-odd seconds and play three games a week, you're no good to us
Like others have said the Dorgu signing worries me as to how successful recruitment will be under Amorim. Whilst not on the scale of Anthony and Mount et al, to have decided to splurge what little transfer money was available on such a limited footballer (ability not athleticism) is a huge red flag for me. The more I see him play the more I would have preferred to have signed no one and kept the money for whatever rebuild is being planned for the summer. Just locks like yet another poor buy at present. Concerning.
I think that's the confusion. We shouldn't only be targeting athletes. I don't think that's all we are doing either
It's staggering really. I thought Rangnick was useless and was only pointing out what was blatantly obvious but then in came Ten Hag. I can only think that he'd barely watched us or a PL game in his life.
I agree he's given us another player who has potential, but whose execution and decision-making isn't really up to snuff. A bit like Garnacho. The sort of player you want to see used carefully and sparingly while he develops and iron out his deficiencies, not a regular starter. We still need a #1 LWB. But hey, we needed a #2 LWB as well and we didn't have anyone, so it's not necessarily a bad transfer.
The big mystery to me is why we've seemingly gone off loan signings. Surely that would have been the obvious way to plug the most gaping holes for the second part of this season.
Before claiming Scouting is not an issue, 1st of all we need to understand who is who are involved in the process.
I believe there are 5 categories of players under recruitment
A) Senior EPL/CL players that agent may ring up CEO/Manager directly for access.
e.g. Sanchez, Eriksen, Casemiro, Varane
B) Players that Manager may know personally hence pushing for settlement
e.g. Antony, Matic
I believe BOTH A & B types of players may have blessing of manager or CEO, hence no-one else to be blamed but them.
C) Experienced EPL/CL players that every fan would have known, very likely costing 40-80m. But then, I believe someone in the Scouting department should have provided a profile for discussion. Hence the committee, involving CEO, Manager, plus a few advisors, should have reviewed these players, and no-one raise concern on Mount? Hujlund? Maguire?
D) Lessor experienced EPL/CL players possibly in the region of 30-70m. Scouting department not involved? Then Who is?
E) Very junior players like Amad, Malacia, the sub-35m players. Definitely Scouts right?
The point is, athleticism is non-negotiable. Ideally you want them to be able to play a bit as well, but running power and strength is a must
Completely and utterly clueless and ignorant of the demands of the PL
100% agreed.
The recruitment team is the big problem. If recruitment is really hitting the point with proper payment on the deal and wage to get good level of physical and technical
on incoming players, we'll rely less on the manager. No matter Ten Hag, Mourinho, or Amorim is our manager, they can do the job for Top 4 consistently.
on incoming players, we'll rely less on the manager. No matter Ten Hag, Mourinho, or Amorim is our manager, they can do the job for Top 4 consistently.
That doesn't explain Dorgu then. He's not weak but he's also not some Nuno Mendes explosive full back.
So yeah, leaves me confused.
All you know is that athleticism is one key area we look for in a player. That's incomplete.
There have been a few transfers that seemed smart at the time that didn't work out, like at least you can see the logic of it. There have been others that have made no sense at all despite the PR push - Hojlund, Mount and Van de Beek up there. I don't think anyone really thought that what United needed was a raw centre forward with an average goal record after struggling for goals for years, especially not for 70m, it was an insane transfer. Mount was not that coveted and would have gone for free no doubt in a few months, so why are you spending 60m on him or whatever it was? Van de Beek is an attacking midfielder who plays in the same position as our best players and least injured player is, so why are we spending 40m on him at the time? So many of these terrible, terrible decisions.
We have started to get a number of young players in the stable 18-21y that we can further develop and match carefully. That’s a good thing.
The problem is that we are not able to buy enough players who can raise the level of our central midfield. For example, we buy Ugarte, while Liverpool buy Gravenberch, Szoboszlai and Mac Allister. All off them better than Ugarte and players Liverpool can build a team for the future around.
Our recruitment has to focus improving our central line. Playing with Lindelof, Eriksen, Ugarte and Hojlund central is ridiculous for a club like United.
Mentioned players should be replaced with quality players between 22-26y: Players who have proved class in:
1. Champions League
2. National team and
3. Bundesliga/Premier League/Serie A/ LaLiga/ or Ligue1
The problem is that we are not able to buy enough players who can raise the level of our central midfield. For example, we buy Ugarte, while Liverpool buy Gravenberch, Szoboszlai and Mac Allister. All off them better than Ugarte and players Liverpool can build a team for the future around.
Our recruitment has to focus improving our central line. Playing with Lindelof, Eriksen, Ugarte and Hojlund central is ridiculous for a club like United.
Mentioned players should be replaced with quality players between 22-26y: Players who have proved class in:
1. Champions League
2. National team and
3. Bundesliga/Premier League/Serie A/ LaLiga/ or Ligue1
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We paid 70M on a striker that scored 9 goals in Serie A
We paid 50M on a 28-years old goalkeeper who was never regarded "world class" by any standard but signed after he got the hype in a single game, and he was signed for free 1 year prior
We paid 80M on a winger that scored 8/9 goals in the Dutch league; whom again was regarded by no one to be world class and was the third choice winger for Brazil
We paid 50M on an injury prone England backup player with 1 year left on his contract
dumbest transfer decisions ever
We paid 50M on a 28-years old goalkeeper who was never regarded "world class" by any standard but signed after he got the hype in a single game, and he was signed for free 1 year prior
We paid 80M on a winger that scored 8/9 goals in the Dutch league; whom again was regarded by no one to be world class and was the third choice winger for Brazil
We paid 50M on an injury prone England backup player with 1 year left on his contract
dumbest transfer decisions ever
Unfortunately, I don't think it has improved still. Last summer was not the greatest and I am amazed that we went for Dorgu when we already has Amass on the books, instead of trying to add another attacking player to the mix in January, even if it was on loan.
Not seen much improvement in our planning and recruitment so far. The coming summer is the litmus test. We are going to suffer for years if we can't get it right again. We need one or two windows with a 80%-90% hit rate.
Not seen much improvement in our planning and recruitment so far. The coming summer is the litmus test. We are going to suffer for years if we can't get it right again. We need one or two windows with a 80%-90% hit rate.
I see local utd scouts at junior games, absolutely clueless. They’re more concerned with turning up wearing the united tracksuit looking all important than talent spotting kids for the future. The one i see on a regular basis constantly on his mobile, no doubts Inputting the particulars of kids etc see if they fit the bill for the club..
Yeah, shambolic. When the majority of the fan base can see how wrong the Mount transfer was it’s even more incompetent. At least under ineos we seem not to be over paying so far and the signings have been ok to good at times.
I would like at least to see the scout reports of Hojlund & Ugarte. It’ll be interesting to know why we spent more than £60m on raw striker like Hojlund and £50m on limited midfielder like Ugarte. Dorgu signing is also bit worried, but he’s still young and it’s not like he cost 50m-70m.
Quarter of a billion for that lot. It’s really unbelievable. Ultimately you need to blame the board, there’s no business where that level of rubbish spending would be tolerated.
If the environment new players are joining is somehow destroying their confidence and motivation, which it has been, then it’s not possible to win at recruitment
It’s like a corrupt police force, new recruits come in with the attitude of being clean but sooner or later they’re sucked into the shite
Anyway I’m high and don’t really know where this is going now, I guess I just wanted to say how would we even know if it’s broken or not?
It’s like a corrupt police force, new recruits come in with the attitude of being clean but sooner or later they’re sucked into the shite
Anyway I’m high and don’t really know where this is going now, I guess I just wanted to say how would we even know if it’s broken or not?
Don't really get the hate on Dorgu, you can see what we bought him for. He's still young, needs a bit a of time to settle. With familiarity, more confidence and better teammates around he'll be good.
We have seemingly allowed whoever the current manager is to pick the players that he wants. If he didn't get his 1st choice, he probably got the 2nd or 3rd choice. When they got sacked, the same choice was given to the next manager. We will hopefully move away from doing that now, but it seems like we were still doing it for Ten Hag last summer.
This shirt is also clearly very heavy. The only other clubs with similar levels of expectation and pressure are Real Madrid and Barcelona, but their clubs have good and experienced players to help the new one's bed in. Our club doesn't have that. We keep buying new players, but the majority have been average at best or way too injury prone. They're also usually lacking in one or more areas. Too old. Too young. Lacking technically. Lacking athleticism. Profiled and played in the wrong positions. That's their manager's fault. Some may have done better in a more experienced team with better players around them. It's hard to play well when everybody around you is failing and low on confidence.
The only player we've bought that has been well worth the transfer fee within the last 12 years is Bruno. That really says everything. The only team that's outspent us is Chelsea.
This shirt is also clearly very heavy. The only other clubs with similar levels of expectation and pressure are Real Madrid and Barcelona, but their clubs have good and experienced players to help the new one's bed in. Our club doesn't have that. We keep buying new players, but the majority have been average at best or way too injury prone. They're also usually lacking in one or more areas. Too old. Too young. Lacking technically. Lacking athleticism. Profiled and played in the wrong positions. That's their manager's fault. Some may have done better in a more experienced team with better players around them. It's hard to play well when everybody around you is failing and low on confidence.
The only player we've bought that has been well worth the transfer fee within the last 12 years is Bruno. That really says everything. The only team that's outspent us is Chelsea.
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I agree. There is a lot to like about him and he will improve. I look forward to Amass and Dorgu fighting for the LWB spot.