Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Pexbo, Oct 3, 2019.
Our last top player is fletcher
Unless you count pogba that is.
Definitely. Neville's piece on MNF about our spine, or lack thereof, made the exact point that young players in the 90s were brought into a winning team alongside exceptional senior pros such as the ones you mention:
As we discussed in the other thread the flaws of Neville's analysis were in making out we're just an Allison, a Van Diyk and a Firmino away from firing like Liverpool are as if Klopp and his coaches have been chilling at the Albert Dock all this time. Parallels between the CO92's situation under Fergie and our current crop under Ole are pretty much non-existent as far as I'm concerned.
Lukaku and Sanchez falls in the category of senior players who are not good enough.
They do but they are much better than what we have now. It’s easy to say they aren’t good enough but if they are not replaced they will be much better than our youth.
Plus the fact both have started relatively well for Inter. It’s early days to suggest they will have a great season but they already look better than what they did with us.
Their first full season as first team regulars was 95/96 but their debuts came earlier in the 90s when we were restricted to 3 foreign players in europe and getting knocked out early. It gave them a taste of going away in europe toughened them up IMO, for example Beckham made his European debut in 94 before he went to Preston on loan.
Wiping the floor ? We beat Lincoln 1-0
I see what you mean but the fact remains those young players came into a side that was winning things and had the characters mentioned earlier, not to mention the greatest manager ever. Plus the fact that the class of '92 are a once in a lifetime batch of youth players.
It's night and day to now, imo.
There are obvious differences in terms of the role models these youngsters have but they have the talent, especially Gomes and Greenwood, to be just as good as the class of 92.
Gomes was always going to take time to adjust to the physicality and pace of first team football, just as he did with U23 football, but when he does adjust we'll have one hell of a player on our hands. Greenwood has looked good in patches but drifts out of games, just as you'd expect from a 17 year old (now 18) as he develops physically and mentally he'll become a top player. Chong I'm less sure about, I think he'll need a few seasons on loan before he's fully ready for our first team but he's definitely a talent, Williams has great potential and the more games he plays the better the defensive side of his game will become.
The problem is the quality of the senior players. What youngsters play on a regular basis? Compare it to Chelsea who have youngsters playing but there it seems to work.
Chelsea's young players like Abraham and Mount are benefiting now from their multiple loan spells, the likes of Chong, Gomes, Garner should be at championship clubs getting valuable experience instead of the odd cup game.
Their 'youngsters' are in their early 20s and have already been out on loan, some for a few seasons. Abraham is the same age as Rashford.
It has nothing to do with my post or my reply to this topic. We need senior players who sets the standards, not players like Lukaku and Sanchez who were underperforming here.
Indeed. Out of the current Chelsea "youngsters", only Hudson-Odoi stayed at the parent club, others all had successful loan spells last season.
Tammy Abraham: 40 matches and 27 goals for Aston Villa in 18/19. Prior to that he had two other loan seasons.
Fikayo Tomori: 55 matches for Derby County. Voted Derby POTY in 18/19. Two other loans seasons before that.
Mason Mount: 44 matches for Derby. Was at Vitesse the season before and voted their POTY, also in Eredivisie TOTY that season.
Reece James: 46 matches for Wigan. Voted their POTY.
I meant in the cup games.
We played some good football though and the likes of Gomes and Chong have stood out in these fixtures. Can you honestly say they're standing out when they're surrounded by the dross? It's disjointed football for a start, at least the youth team mostly are on the same wavelength now.
My thoughts exactly. Thanks OP
When Ole didn't replace Herrera, Sanchez and Lukaku it was obvious he was thinking of youth development incorrectly.
the grief and vitriol that is spewed at the likes of Chong for a handful of poor performances, in a team setup that is struggling anyway, is baffling.
I made a similar point a while back with our new signings. People used to say it was a hallmark of Fergie’s transfers, that he could buy from lower sides and get them to raise their game.
The thing is, his teams could cope with a player making the step up because they were surrounded by top class players. If Fergie signed Schneiderlin, Bailly, Lindelof etc they were bedded in slowly around top quality players who could bring them up a level. Now our entire team is made up of these players, and there’s no-one to help them step up. All we end up with is a team of mid-table players wondering why we’re not playing very well.
Instead of being loaned out they're now being asked to be squad players, even first team players...straight from the u23s.
Just incredible decisions all round.
I just want to punch Woodward in the mouth.
They are bringing the youngsters down. Too slow on the ball and the chance is gone. I have see Gomes and Greenwood getting into good positions and wanting the ball but both Mata and Matic ignored them, then lost it.
Football has a massive problem with perspectivism and we are all guilty of it but the problem at United relating to it is deep. This is Rashfords 5th season in the PL now but he's only 21, where does he lie? One of the youth or a senior player? Similar question is then asked of James. This is only his 2nd full season in professional football at 21. Where does he lie? One of the youth or a senior player? You now have 4 or 5 U-23 players that are involved with the first team squad and they're all considered to be at the same level of development but they really aren't.
The issue in the OP is spot on. It's made even worse when you realise that a bunch of the 'senior' players in your side aren't 'senior'. Shaw, Rashford, Martial, AWB, James are all young in terms of age and development. The former three may have been at United for a while but they've been at United during a period which has been a rollercoaster in terms of development and style instead of a steady upward trajectory.
“This team needs to win titles and prizes and the process for the young players needs time and the best way is step by step. But the demand from the club [is] not winning the Champions League but being there every time, in all competitions and for that needs the [senior] players we have.
“When they are talented, they will play. But at the same time, we have to compete every day to fight with the best in England and Europe. For that we need the David Silvas, Kevin De Bruynes, Sergio Agüeros and Fernandinhos. But if the basis of the team is young, it is not possible.”
Youth is always introduced successfully in an already well-functioning team. You can't put a bunch of them in together and expect results.
About Martial, it's important to remember that his first actual season as a starter was with United. People missed that point due to the money involved but United bought a player that was at the beginning of his transition from youth to senior football and like you said, he has been treated like a senior player instead of being developed and taught.
You cannot blood young players when you have a "settled team" at United. Here settled team really means championship challengers. In that case, challenging for top, top 4, or even top 6, you must always play your strongest 11. Which means youth players will be bench players at best; they may get 10 or 20 minutes at the end provided you're winning by a safe margin.
I doubt anyone disagrees with that.
But what do you do when your senior players cannot put in more than 1 acceptable performance per week? (if that). What is the point of having 25 players in a squad?, when you only ever want to play your best 11? Is it just to cover injuries?
The disaster is that the squad are not good enough. Even without injuries they are not competing to win the league.
Nothing ever is. Solution = never play young players.
Do you speak for all the youth players who want to play for United's first team. Are you, like, their union rep, or something?
Martial. Born 5-12-1995. Looks like he debuted aged 17 in Ligue 1 for Lyon. In his 7th season of top league football. How is not "senior"?
Lyon ----- Ligue 1 ----- 2012/13 ----- 47 minutes as substitute in 3 matches, 0 goals
Monaco --- Ligue 1 ----- 2013/14 ----- 571 minutes, including 8 starts, 9 goals
Monaco --- Ligue 1 ----- 2014/15 ----- 1828 minutes, including 19 starts, 9 goals
United ---- EPL --------- 2015/16 ----- 2632 minutes, including 29 starts, 11 goals
Because you're making the mistake of looking at someone from the perspective of 'this is their 7th season' in football so they are senior.
Yep. Yet there are posters who lose it when the likes of Gomes and Garner aren't also plunged into the shit storm. The way we're going it's more likely the kids will end up broken by this rather than flourishing.
Blooding in youth is one thing.
Throwing in a bunch of young players and praying of them turns out to be something special because you don't have any good players. Is very much another.
Feel bad for them. Terrible environment to get chances.
And people have a cheek to have a go at those kids, you have to be Messi 2x to be able to carry seniors like Fred, Young etc. feck off.
Load of shite. We’ve had a load of injuries and we’re having to sub on Rojo when pushing for a goal. Some of the young players we’ve got are great but we desperately need experienced players in there. We’re a shambles.
Messi can't carry Argentina, no way he could carry us right now!
They have though. They’ve played far too much and none of them have any business being near the first team at the moment.
I’m not interested in any of them at this point in time.
Objectively speaking, Greenwood asides I wouldn't say any of your youth are exactly future world beaters.
All our kids look totally lightweight and years of being ready.
I can't believe we've left ourselves with just these kids as plan B off the bench
Since when have we had a good youth setup to have players capable of playing in the PL? Our reserves are in the second division and the u18s languishing near the lower end of division. It's not just the first team that suffers from lack of coaching, our youth team has been in the doldrums for years.
Ole's plan is spectacularly backfiring as he believed when someone said we have good young players but their glaring lack of ability and geing thrown in at the deep end with no cohesive technical knowhow from the first team coach is going to prove terminal for any aspirations they had of playing at the top level.
This. I'm tried of youth this, youth that. I honestly don't see what many see in them. Most of those players would do well to get into a PL team when they're no longer young.
The fetishisation of the academy has got to stop. There’s extreme reviosionism in regards to Fergie and his use of academy players. He didn’t chuck them in at the deep end; they were individually introduced over months and years. The “process” underway is extremely unfair on the current crop. What should be a gradual introduction into football at this level has become an omnishambles of too much exposure, too much expectation and a lack of responsibility from those around them. Throwing on 18 year olds to try and win a game, in the context of this season, is painful for everyone involved.
Without wanting to labour an obvious point, compare and contrast United’s squad policies with City’s and Liverpool’s. City bought Gabriel Jesus at the age of 19. Despite leading the line for Brazil and helping them win Copa America, he’s still being rotated with Aguero. Cancelo joined in the summer for big money and is only now being introduced. Foden, in the squad for 2 seasons, continues to be rotated in and out of the team without pressure. Last season Liverpool signed Fabinho for £40m and he barely played for the first 2 months. Meanwhile at United, new signings are parachuted into the first team immediately after completing the transfer (Maguire, Sanchez), and teenagers with virtually no experience are expected to fill gaps left by senior internationals with hundreds of games under their belts.
Our current Brooding youth strategy has it’s pros and cons for them players.
The cons are that they are being thrown into the deep in a huge club but a horribly dysfunctional and under-coached side, they not only expected to step up, we’re dependent on them stepping up.
the pros are that they are getting valuable game-time in a huge club in a pressure cooker environment.
What doesn’t kill you makes you a better player, if you have the character.
Not all of them will make it here, but they are given a damn good chance and opportunity to make a name for themselves.
You’re kidding yourself if you ever think that Greenwood would’ve been getting PL minutes at 17 under SAF, he would have 3-4 far far better strikers than him competing for minutes.
One problem at United is the youth in our U-23s are generally very young. We have one fit U-23 player aged 20; not so many rated 19 year olds (Chong and Williams?). Most well rated youth here are 16, 17, and 18 year old. I agree we cannot usually play more than one or two at a time.
In contrast, Chelsea turned their club into a player farm; they have masses of players on their books. Most of them farmed out on loan. Chelsea give them 1 or 2 years experience playing on loan before they're allowed a premier league start.
I said you shouldn't generally play a lot of youth at once. I agreed with they premise of the OP. But these are extraordinary times when senior players are not up to winning matches. I want to see Garner give games because Matic and Fred disappoint so much; with low ratings in most of their matches, and no goal threat, and not much of a defensive, DMC.
I want to see more youth play because I've lost confidence in our senior squad players like Mata, Lingard, Matic, Fred, Young.
PS: extraordinary times = we have a weak (for United), unbalanced squad with many injured players.
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