Evidently not. Rocket Science makes sense.
Board vs Jose
- Thread starter AshRK
- Start date
There are only two metrics here. Are we winning the league or CL (objective) ? Are we playing attractive football (somewhat subjective) ? If neither is being met then we can ask why such a massive investment has yielded such a disparity between us and City (who we finished level on points with a couple of years back and now find ourselves 19 points behind).
My point makes perfect sense to anyone with any degree of objectivity.
He's improved us, undoubtedly - whether he's improved us enough will probably be decided in the upcoming season. I'm hopeful but can understand why the jury is partly out for some.
All good players but it remains to be seen whether or not the final table reflects the quality some of these names evoke. If Jose wins the league then he will deserve full credit for binding it all together.
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Because (IMO) Maguire is not worth the expenditure for what he would bring to the side. If he was French, Spanish or Italian playing in one of those leagues at the level he has done for Leicester we wouldn't even consider those sums. If we were to splurge those amounts on a CB it should be on someone like Koulibaly which would bring our defence to a different level, IMO Bailly is just as big a talent as Maguire.
Also I think there are limited funds available. If we had a DOF or someone not being Woody being in charge he wouldn't have gone public with it to save his own ass, but rather told Jose to focus on our actual problem areas, and identify players for those areas.
Barcelona for example purchased Malcom for 41mill euros. That is a punt we should have taken considering the state of our RW. Instead Woody is busy chasing fantasy transfers like Bale so he can pound his chest and think he is rolling with the big boys.
Absolute ridiculous if an investment banker has as much say in our transfers as Mourinho has hinted at.
I think we can have a big season if things go our way, and ultimately given he's the Manchester United manager he needs to deliver. I do think he deserves patience even beyond this season if we get above the 80 points mark again and the football is less tedious.
The main thing for me is improvement, and since Van Gaals last season we've improved drastically in terms of the quality of the players being brought in.
Hopefully we have another strong showing this time around and if we're just shy of the league then tbe board need to give Jose what he needs because managers like him don't come around very often.
The table reflected it last season, 81 points is nothing to stick your nose up to. Had city not had the season of a lifetime there wouldn't be so much unjustified negativity towards the manager.
I mean...it's not brilliant, is it? It's very rare such a points total wins you the title - indeed in most seasons it's barely enough to be considered as a proper to-the-death title challenge. Especially when we didn't win anything else.
No doubt it was an improvement but what good does it do when the opposition are racking up 100 points. The target shouldn't be self-congratulatory incremental improvement, it should be winning the league. Pep and Jose both inherited sides that won 66 points and Pep has simply outperformed Jose in taking his team to greater heights.
Asides from Mandzukic - who'd be an excellent sub and backup - every one would start for us even considering their positions mostly aren't in areas of particular weakness for us.
I'm not seeing the relationship between them playing for Juventus/Atletico and Lingard/friends starting for us.
Lack of real alternatives I might suspect, I think Poch signing a new contract put some spanners in the works. Also the payout for Mourinho would be huge.
But who the feck knows, it's not like United have been run and operated with a plan since Fergie's departure.
The original point involved someone saying the likes of Mata aren't good enough - I listed a litany of players on very good sides who have found roles within those sides because no side has XI world beaters. They have a combination of marquee players along side ordinary/squad players who collectively make the team chug along.
Which of those sides would Lingard start at right-wing for?
Depends which of those sides is in need of a right winger.
I feel sorry for You having to go through that even though your points still haven’t been addressed.
If Jose had won the league City fans would probably say they had more of a rebuild and we had Rooney, Carrick, De Gea, Valencia and a recent PL winner in Matic. Just how it goes.
It's fairly amazing that this argument is still being pushed.
City's net spend over the last 5 years is £519 million, whereas United's is £477 million. By way of comparison, Spurs' net spend in the same period is £50 million and Liverpool have a net spend of £168 million over this period, with the majority of that coming this summer. City have (a) spent their money more wisely than you, (b) are getting far more out of their players than you. United have made numerous massive signings in recent years, and many of them have been made by your existing manager.
Pogba is the most expensive player in the PL, Lukaku is the most expensive forward in the PL, Martial was signed as the most expensive teenager ever, and Sanchez was signed on the biggest ever contract in the PL. They have not delivered, though. That is either (a) due to signing the wrong players for stupid money, (b) Mourinho failing to get the best out of them, (c) both. It is not due to City having some unfair advantage. And I fully accept that City are in a false, oil-funded position, but they've also used their resources very wisely.
You've been in that position for over half a decade, have spent an absolute fortune, a comparable amount of money to City, and you've unearthed a £60 million player for nothing in Rashford, and you're still making the same excuse!
Look at your existing squad:
de Gea is probably the best keeper in the world.
Valencia is very highly regarded by Mourinho, so although he was a winger he can't really moan about him being no good.
Lindelof was signed by Mourinho for £31 million.
Bailly was signed by Mourinho for £30 million.
Jones and Smalling are both England internationals, but two £30 million+ CBs and two England internationals isn't enough for Jose, and he wants more centre-backs, even though he signed the previous ones.
Shaw was signed for £27 million - at the time making him the fourth most expensive defender ever, at the age of 18.
Pogba was signed by Mourinho for £90 million, breaking the world transfer record.
Matic was signed by Mourinho for £40 million.
Fred was signed by Mourinho for £60 million.
Mata was signed for around £40 million.
Sanchez was signed by Mourinho, in an absolutely massive deal, a few months ago.
Rashford is one of the most highly regarded young players in Europe, and certainly England.
Martial was signed for a fee that could rise to £58 million, making him the world's most expensive teenager at the time.
Lukaku was signed by Mourinho for £85 million.
You cannot spend all that money and then complain that it's unfair another club have spent money!
If you want to compare then City got de Bruyne for £55 million (£35 million less than Pogba), Gabriel Jesus for £27 million (around £60 million less than Lukaku), Sane for £37 million (hard to say how much, but significantly less than Martial), and Sterling on a comparable deal to Sanchez. Of course, Sanchez would have cost far more if his contract hadn't been running down.
Man United are supposedly the biggest club in the world, and they're definitely the club with the biggest turnover in the world. How long are you going to be willing to sit there and claim that you're still in transition? Is this another season of transition? When does the transition end exactly?
Your point only makes sense if you think Lingard is of equivalent quality to Cuadrado, Matuidi, Felipe Luis and the other supposed average Joes you named; is this what you think?
Also we've gone down a path of comparing ourselves to clubs with nowhere near the budget that we have... really our 11 should look similar to Real Madrid and Barcelona's should it not?
Absolutely, I don't see Jesse as being any different in terms of squad status as the others.
Not necessarily. It depends on who the manager buys and what his overall strategy is. Also, the idea great sides have world class players at every position is a complete myth. They have a few world class players surrounded by a squad of good ones.
I'm not saying Jose has been perfect and should be exempt from criticism but I do think his success at United has been severely affected by the actions of the board... not just in his tenure but since Fergie left. The way I see it, Woodward and the board were happy to give in to Moyes and LVG by getting rid of players who were the foundation of Fergie's last successful squad and splurge on ineffective marquee signings like Falcao and Di Maria and sub standard squad players like Darmian and Rojo. That's what Jose inherited and since then the board have been reluctant to clear the deadwood unless they can make a profit.
Despite Lukaku and Pogba Jose hasn't been afforded the liberties Moyes and LVG in terms of building his own squad. Perfect example is Perisic last summer - Jose identified him as a solution to one of our weakest links yet we didn't get him because Woodward wasn't willing to pay the price. Yet Woodward was willing to pay over and above for Fellaini as a statement signing. Even Fred was a signing that was necessitated by Carrick's retirement.
Just seems to me that the board realize that they overshot with a lot of the deals they made for Moyes and LVG and now are reluctant to indulge Jose. I don't see it as Jose's fault. If he had come in right after SAF or even Moyes I think it would be very different.
Despite Lukaku and Pogba Jose hasn't been afforded the liberties Moyes and LVG in terms of building his own squad. Perfect example is Perisic last summer - Jose identified him as a solution to one of our weakest links yet we didn't get him because Woodward wasn't willing to pay the price. Yet Woodward was willing to pay over and above for Fellaini as a statement signing. Even Fred was a signing that was necessitated by Carrick's retirement.
Just seems to me that the board realize that they overshot with a lot of the deals they made for Moyes and LVG and now are reluctant to indulge Jose. I don't see it as Jose's fault. If he had come in right after SAF or even Moyes I think it would be very different.
There's probably a lot of truth in the idea that the board overshot. They are also probably not interested in indulging every transfer wish Jose has until he demonstrates he can return the sort of entertainment value and trophy success that Pep has. Another factor may be that the board don't want to add into the feeding frenzy of the current hyperinflated market by consistently overpaying clubs to where it sets a precedent that we will consistently get overcharged for players other clubs may pay significantly less for.
We're talking about whether Lingard brings the same amount of playing quality to our first 11 as Cuadrado, Matuidi, Felipe Luis & co, obviously they have the same squad status (first 11 player) but that wasn't the question as I'm sure you knew
Yes but it's the starting 11 we're talking about and it's that definition of good we need to establish. There's a base level that they need to fulfil their position to to avoid them bringing the overall quality of the team down.
The answer is still yes. Lingard had more goals than the likes of Cuadrado and Mandzukic (an actual striker) and became an integral part of our game for long stretches last year.We're talking about whether Lingard brings the same amount of playing quality to our first 11 as Cuadrado, Matuidi, Felipe Luis & co, obviously they have the same squad status (first 11 player) but that wasn't the question as I'm sure you knew
Ok.
Jose won two trophies in his first year at United as opposed to Pep winning nothing in his first year at city... Pep's league success came on the back of him spending whatever he wanted on anyone he wanted. So based on this rational, the board should have no reason not to indulge Jose in the same way City's board did with Pep.
And yeah there's definitely a case for the board trying to curtail the hyperinflation but in cases like Perisic where they refused to pay 4 million more it's a bit ridiculous especially considering how much they paid for someone like Martial at that time. If we have teams like Liverpool and Chelsea breaking records for Goalkeepers then surely the board has to accept that this is the new norm. The alternative is to boost our scouting network to find players who aren't going to be subject to premium charges but even that's not happening,
Fair enough. For the record Cuadrado wasn't a starter for Juventus and Mandzukic was a winger, Douglas Costa had by far the worst goals/game ratio of all 4 so I'm not sure goals is the defining factor for wingers? Agree to disagree anyway.
Well said. I said about the transition period myself a few months back. What other big club in Europe has a transition period that last for 5 years or more? Just admit we have had bad managers and players bought in not good enough. Lets hope Mourinho can pull it altogether and make the next step from 2nd to 1st. We aint Liverpool Juventus Bayern City PSG Chelsea, even Barca or Madrid were supposed to be the biggest club in the world, lets start showing it
This is when Mou should have come in. I admit i'm not a fan of his style of play, but he would have won the league the first or second season if he had have come in and maybe the Ch Lge as well.
Well if you're talking about spending here then you're being extremely selective to fit your narrative. We didn't spend 30+ million on Jones and Smalling. We didn't anything on Rashford. Fred was bought this season. And then if you wanna go further, under Pep, City has bought Kyle walker for 45 million. Stones for 45 million. Mendy for 50 million. Silva for 45 million. That's just under Pep. I mean if you're going to compare to make a point then don't be selective.
If you are comparing net spend with City you need to look at 10 years.
They overpaid for many players over 5 years ago then sold alot of them at a loss within the last 5 years.
Look at who they sold in the last 5 years and how much they lost on the original transfer fees they paid.
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Dortmund? With the same chart, should Monaco be a more successful team? They spend a little bit every season, but is guaranteed to finish with 2+ points a game, which is a Top 4 guarantee even at EPL.
Mourinho himself said that we'd not buy an attacker in the summer. So we were only going to be buying either a young player who's unknown or a well-established star, not someone like Malcom.
I think the transition ends when Utd is back in 1st place.
Any year where we stand still isn't a good year.
Who's "you"?
Jose has faced this problem before:
Thank goodness I was away last week, this place must have been a mess.
Personally I have no issue with us not buying a CB, & no question that in his time here Jose has been backed by the board, so to me they are just asking Jose to get a little more from what he's already got, I'm sure if he does, they'll back him heavily again next window.
Personally I have no issue with us not buying a CB, & no question that in his time here Jose has been backed by the board, so to me they are just asking Jose to get a little more from what he's already got, I'm sure if he does, they'll back him heavily again next window.
Jose Mourinho said we would make three signings this Summer and we made two (lets ignore Grant). It really isn't the end of the world. Last season he wanted four players and got three. Okay, its not perfect, but its not terrible by any means.
We are trying to catch a team who broke all records last year and who have 2 very good right wing options against our meh and who brought in defenders for big money and moved quickly to replace them because Pep wanted to do that. Those moves were actually lauded in the media as not standing still and being single minded in the persuit etc etc.....
Fans now worried about sensible spending I feel is insane....We can afford to spend more than we have. Money in the bank wont get us any extra points......It won't even be stockpiled so we can spend double next year. Rarely works like that. Pretty sure Jose would have let Jones or someone go as well if we had brought in another CB with time to spare. This is the first time I can remember fans backing frugal spending from us and its heavily linked with a dislike for the manager. Wanting him to fail so he can be moved on.
Fans now worried about sensible spending I feel is insane....We can afford to spend more than we have. Money in the bank wont get us any extra points......It won't even be stockpiled so we can spend double next year. Rarely works like that. Pretty sure Jose would have let Jones or someone go as well if we had brought in another CB with time to spare. This is the first time I can remember fans backing frugal spending from us and its heavily linked with a dislike for the manager. Wanting him to fail so he can be moved on.
I still haven't found anyone who can imagine how that conversation will go -- Mourinho wants a right back, Woodward saunters around Europe and ends up finding out that Mbappe can't be had for 100m is what I'm imagining.
There has been a distinct shift from fans identifying we need x positions fixed to a new idea......we don't....it was full backs and a right winger 2 months back. Just because Ed seemingly concentrated on CBs off the list we assume all 5 on the list were CBs?