Board vs Jose

[Andycoleno9]

When i saw city squad today and especially after comments here how great they are and how great pep is, i am more pissed on our board. In Pep's squad today were five 60mil( 5 mil more or less) players in defence, 60 mil winger, 60 mil players on bench. Everything what he wanted he got it.
Our coach wanted new winger. Didn't get it. Our coach wanted one full back. Didn't get it.
Our coach wanted leader central defender. Didn't get it.
My point is that i think that this was that season where our squad will be finally jose's squad. Like city or liverpool are for their coaches. Board of richest club in the world failed to do that for our manager. This was capital mistake from them.

 

[MuFc_1992]

When i saw city squad today and especially after comments here how great they are and how great pep is, i am more pissed on our board. In Pep's squad today were five 60mil( 5 mil more or less) players in defence, 60 mil winger, 60 mil players on bench. Everything what he wanted he got it.
Our coach wanted new winger. Didn't get it. Our coach wanted one full back. Didn't get it.
Our coach wanted leader central defender. Didn't get it.
My point is that i think that this was that season where our squad will be finally jose's squad. Like city or liverpool are for their coaches. Board of richest club in the world failed to do that for our manager. This was capital mistake from them.

What was the age of those players when Pep signed him? I think there is a remarkable difference in the types of players they go after and the type we go after. For example- Pep goes after upcoming young players who've recently had excellent seasons whereas Mou goes after seasoned professionals who are approaching 30's and are going to decline soon. Even Pep didn't get Alexis, presumably because City though it was too much money for someone his age. Signing Willian and Alderweireld this window for 110-120 million wouldn't have guaranteed that we'd compete with City but after a couple of years we would declining Sanchez, Willian, Matic and Alderweireld on our wage bill and we'd need to spend another 300 million to replace them. On the other hand signing Pogba for 89 million looks like a masterstroke because even if he fails we'd still get our money back.

 

[MuFc_1992]

If you are comparing net spend with City you need to look at 10 years.

They overpaid for many players over 5 years ago then sold alot of them at a loss within the last 5 years.

Look at who they sold in the last 5 years and how much they lost on the original transfer fees they paid.

If you look 10 years back than they also signed absolute world class players like Aguero, Silva etc. and De Bruyne recently who elevate their side to completely different level. I don't think we've had players of that caliber in our team since Ronaldo left (except RVP for one season) so, I think the blame lies with us for not competing with City for those players. How many of our signings in our recent history are technically as good as those players?

 

[endless_wheelies]

What was the age of those players when Pep signed him? I think there is a remarkable difference in the types of players they go after and the type we go after. For example- Pep goes after upcoming young players who've recently had excellent seasons whereas Mou goes after seasoned professionals who are approaching 30's and are going to decline soon. Even Pep didn't get Alexis, presumably because City though it was too much money for someone his age. Signing Willian and Alderweireld this window for 110-120 million wouldn't have guaranteed that we'd compete with City but after a couple of years we would declining Sanchez, Willian, Matic and Alderweireld on our wage bill and we'd need to spend another 300 million to replace them. On the other hand signing Pogba for 89 million looks like a masterstroke because even if he fails we'd still get our money back.

Alderweireld was a no brainer. Best central defender in the league who despite what those on here think is not remotely in decline and not remotely injury prone.

At 29 he could have led our defence for the next 5 years.

Also if you look back on Mourinho's transfer history I'm not sure you'll find a large percentage of them are 29+.

 

[ErranMorad]

Alderweireld was a no brainer. Best central defender in the league who despite what those on here think is not remotely in decline and not remotely injury prone.

At 29 he could have led our defence for the next 5 years.

Also if you look back on Mourinho's transfer history I'm not sure you'll find a large percentage of them are 29+.

Alderweireld is also a Spurs player, a team whose chairman is Daniel Levy. He is known to be a tough negotiator and very wary of letting players go to other top clubs in the premier league. Reports suggest that Spurs wanted either Martial or Mata in exchange. May be we didn't want to part with either player. And rightly so to as we do not have an excess of attacking players. If the club deemed that the choice was either to part with 60m+ for 29+ old defender who is not peak Nesta/Ferdinand or one of our attacking players in exchange, then you cannot say that was the wrong choice.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Alderweireld is also a Spurs player, a team whose chairman is Daniel Levy. He is known to be a tough negotiator and very wary of letting players go to other top clubs in the premier league. Reports suggest that Spurs wanted either Martial or Mata in exchange. May be we didn't want to part with either player. And rightly so to as we do not have an excess of attacking players. If the club deemed that the choice was either to part with 60m+ for 29+ old defender who is not peak Nesta/Ferdinand or one of our attacking players in exchange, then you cannot say that was the wrong choice.

You think peak Nesta/Ferdinand would be £60m? You sound like Woodward with that "£100m for Varane" crap.

 

[ErranMorad]

You think peak Nesta/Ferdinand would be £60m? You sound like Woodward with that "£100m for Varane" crap.

You seem like someone who has no concept of value and thinks money grows on trees.

 

[Red_toad]

What was the age of those players when Pep signed him? I think there is a remarkable difference in the types of players they go after and the type we go after. For example- Pep goes after upcoming young players who've recently had excellent seasons whereas Mou goes after seasoned professionals who are approaching 30's and are going to decline soon. Even Pep didn't get Alexis, presumably because City though it was too much money for someone his age. Signing Willian and Alderweireld this window for 110-120 million wouldn't have guaranteed that we'd compete with City but after a couple of years we would declining Sanchez, Willian, Matic and Alderweireld on our wage bill and we'd need to spend another 300 million to replace them. On the other hand signing Pogba for 89 million looks like a masterstroke because even if he fails we'd still get our money back.

So we go off facts, Fred ,Mkhitaryan, Bailly, Lindlehof, Dalot, Lukaku & Pogba don’t fall into that category. Matic, Grantand Alexis do. So tell us again how Jose only goes for older players and keep on promoting that tosh...

 

[Fluctuation0161]

If you look 10 years back than they also signed absolute world class players like Aguero, Silva etc. and De Bruyne recently who elevate their side to completely different level. I don't think we've had players of that caliber in our team since Ronaldo left (except RVP for one season) so, I think the blame lies with us for not competing with City for those players. How many of our signings in our recent history are technically as good as those players?

I don't disagree with that.

My point is they had a scatter gun approach to transfers - some worked out, most didn't. But don't forget the vast amounts of money wasted during that period. Back when transfer fees were much lower than now.

Look at how much the players listed below cost. They sold them on for a fraction of that. Oil money in action.

Robinho & Jo cost £70M in 2008.

Adebayor, Santa Cruz, Kolo Toure, Lescott cost £102M in 2009

Nasri, Savic, Clichy for £50M in 2010

Balotelli, Dzeko, Boateng for £105M in 2011

Garcia, Nastasic, Rodwell for £50M in 2012

Point is, throw enough shit and some will stick! All these players were sold for comparative peanuts. They skew the 5year net spend because it doesn't take into account the ridiculous amount spent on these players prior to those last 5 years.

This is why our board need to continue spending to keep in contention.

 

[charlie9882]

Alderweireld was a no brainer. Best central defender in the league who despite what those on here think is not remotely in decline and not remotely injury prone.

At 29 he could have led our defence for the next 5 years.

Also if you look back on Mourinho's transfer history I'm not sure you'll find a large percentage of them are 29+.

How can you say he's not remotely injury prone when he's been struggling with hamstring injuries for two seasons? His injury problems might be overstated, but he certainly has had issues with them recently and as you get older, the chances of reoccurrence are higher and this is certainly something that the board would have taken into consideration when doing their due diligence.

 

[stuski]

Every year we need 3 or 4 players it seems. There were games last year were 5 of the back 5 were fergie signings. Its outrageous. Also feel Joses style of play is more obsolete than cassette tapes(younger use google). We need powerful wing backs. And leaders at centre back.
8 mins into Leicester game i was optimistic. It was a great 8 minutes.
Compared to our rivals we are miles away. Unfortunately top 4 battle. Jose moaning. Pogba and Martial stories..Basically last season.
What did Liverpool need, a goal keeper, and mid fielders.. Common sense dictates they go and do that which they did. Why the hell cant we fix the areas we need to fix. What is the problem. I suppose as long as the Glazers can draw down 100 mil each a year they are sweet. And whilst the sponsors keep coming woody is sweet. Whilst were stuck with a moaning out of date manager. No idea what the answer is but i do know that it will take years..

 

[Revan]

So we go off facts, Fred ,Mkhitaryan, Bailly, Lindlehof, Dalot, Lukaku & Pogba don’t fall into that category. Matic, Grantand Alexis do. So tell us again how Jose only goes for older players and keep on promoting that tosh...

He also went after Perisic, Alder and Willian, so had the board listened to him, the number of old players he signed would have been kind of the same as the number of young to midtwenties players. Also, he signed Ibra which you ommited. And plays as starters Valencia and Young.

So, had the board listened to Mourinho, on the starting eleven, we easily could have: Valencia (33), Young (33), Alder (29), Smalling (28), Matic (30), Sanchez (29), Willian/Perisic (29). This is 7 out of 11 (6 if you don't count Smalling and put Bailly there) who would need to be replaced in 1-4 years. It is absolutely unhealthy for any team to have that many 'old' players. It might make sense if you signed them young (like we did with Smalling and Valencia for example), they give you a decade of services and now are at the end of career, but signing them at 28+ is absolutely unhealthy. Mourinho already did so with 2 of them, and that should be the absolute limit.

 

[Massive Spanner]

He also went after Perisic, Alder and Willian, so had the board listened to him, the number of old players he signed would have been kind of the same as the number of young to midtwenties players. Also, he signed Ibra which you ommited. And plays as starters Valencia and Young.

So, had the board listened to Mourinho, on the starting eleven, we easily could have: Valencia (33), Young (33), Alder (29), Smalling (28), Matic (30), Sanchez (29), Willian/Perisic (29). This is 7 out of 11 (6 if you don't count Smalling and put Bailly there) who would need to be replaced in 1-4 years. It is absolutely unhealthy for any team to have that many 'old' players. It might make sense if you signed them young (like we did with Smalling and Valencia for example), they give you a decade of services and now are at the end of career, but signing them at 28+ is absolutely unhealthy. Mourinho already did so with 2 of them, and that should be the absolute limit.

Agree with this.

Nothing wrong with going for a 28/29 year old if they're a top player and we really need them to take our team up a level. Like Matic last year, or Toby this year (who I think it was a mistake to not buy), but targeting multiple 28/29 year old,s in one summer is a recipe for disaster. You simply need a healthy mixture of youth and experience.

 

[Red_toad]

He also went after Perisic, Alder and Willian, so had the board listened to him, the number of old players he signed would have been kind of the same as the number of young to midtwenties players. Also, he signed Ibra which you ommited. And plays as starters Valencia and Young.

So, had the board listened to Mourinho, on the starting eleven, we easily could have: Valencia (33), Young (33), Alder (29), Smalling (28), Matic (30), Sanchez (29), Willian/Perisic (29). This is 7 out of 11 (6 if you don't count Smalling and put Bailly there) who would need to be replaced in 1-4 years. It is absolutely unhealthy for any team to have that many 'old' players. It might make sense if you signed them young (like we did with Smalling and Valencia for example), they give you a decade of services and now are at the end of career, but signing them at 28+ is absolutely unhealthy. Mourinho already did so with 2 of them, and that should be the absolute limit.

So speculation is fact? I only deal in what happened, not what the media speculate on, as 99 percent of it is based on guesswork.
Sorry I missed Ibra, a free signing on a 1 year contract. But a tad more factual than the speculation you posted.

 

[sunama]

You seem like someone who has no concept of value and thinks money grows on trees.

Mate, times have moved on, whether you like it or not.

Varane might've cost £100M 2 years ago, but now, for the best young CB in the World, you are looking at around £150M.
Sorry to break it to you, but prices will keep rising.

I'd love it if I could buy a flat for £100K, in London, but sadly, prices have risen and I need to be more realistic.
Whether money grows on trees or not, the price of a flat in London is closer to £500K and I either pay up or don't buy.

It is staggering to see that people are not understanding that prices are rising. Good GKs cost £70M in today's market. The best GK will probably cost £100M.
The best attackers are now £200M+. And if that player is young, too, like Mbappe, you may need to pay £300M.
Ronaldo, a 33 yr old, was transferred for £100M a few weeks ago.
VVD was transferred for £75M, in a previous transfer window. 6 months later, he'd most likely have cost closer to £90M.

Are people not following the transfer window or are they living in some sort of time bubble, where we are stuck in 2015?

 

[sunama]

Agree with this.

Nothing wrong with going for a 28/29 year old if they're a top player and we really need them to take our team up a level. Like Matic last year, or Toby this year (who I think it was a mistake to not buy), but targeting multiple 28/29 year old,s in one summer is a recipe for disaster. You simply need a healthy mixture of youth and experience.

Now, this, I agree with.
However, we didn't buy any 29 year olds this Summer, did we?
We only got Fred, who is mid-20s.

 

[ErranMorad]

Mate, times have moved on, whether you like it or not.

Varane might've cost £100M 2 years ago, but now, for the best young CB in the World, you are looking at around £150M.
Sorry to break it to you, but prices will keep rising.

I'd love it if I could buy a flat for £100K, in London, but sadly, prices have risen and I need to be more realistic.
Whether money grows on trees or not, the price of a flat in London is closer to £500K and I either pay up or don't buy.

It is staggering to see that people are not understanding that prices are rising. Good GKs cost £70M in today's market. The best GK will probably cost £100M.
The best attackers are now £200M+. And if that player is young, too, like Mbappe, you may need to pay £300M.
Ronaldo, a 33 yr old, was transferred for £100M a few weeks ago.
VVD was transferred for £75M, in a previous transfer window. 6 months later, he'd most likely have cost closer to £90M.

Are people not following the transfer window or are they living in some sort of time bubble, where we are stuck in 2015?

Let's tackle his response to my post first:

"You think peak Nesta/Ferdinand would be £60m? You sound like Woodward with that "£100m for Varane" crap."

I don't know what the relation of the first statement is with the second statement.

Alderweireld has one year remaining on his contract. Spurs have an option of another year; however that will trigger a release clause of £25m. So yes, £60m for a recently injury inflicted, almost 29 1/2 year old not special defender who doesn't want to sign a new contract is a ridiculous amount, no matter how crazy the market has gotten.

Bonucci a much superior defender & similar age profile signed for Milan for 40m Euros and went back to Juve for a similar sum.

Let's come to Varane: First, he is not the best young CB in the world. Second, he is very injury prone and misses large swathes of season out. Third, even if he was the best young CB & fit as a fiddle, no one will pay £150m for a CB. Even in this crazy market those prices are reserved for game changing attacking players. Only three players till date have cost more than £100m: Neymar, Mbappe & Coutinho. All three special game changers.
Sorry to break it to you, but you are exaggerating.

People are following the transfer window. It's only you who is not grasping that exorbitant prices are being paid for the very special players. Not simply good ones like Alderweireld with only one year left on their contracts.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Manchester City have been very clever. Whilst we sit here crying about the money they have spent - that was already going to happen no matter who the manager is.

However, what they have done is hire arguably the best coach in the world who has an open, flexible mind who wants to try something new, make football entertaining, successful as well as attract young players as well as fans. Just the utilisation of mendy this season is stunning as an occasional inverted fullback to break deep lying defences. You have that type of coach and you give him the opportunity to buy who ever he wants, who ever he can afford spending billions.

Jose described himself perfectly when he said that he is regarded more as a coach than a manager at United; in that regards we have a very weak coach in comparison - whilst we have a good short term manager. He is not here to be open minded, flexible, try something new and make football entertaining whilst attracting young players - he is here to merely manage his choice of players to success - maybe winning one significant trophy in his life time here at old trafford.

Good players or not, technical players or not - he needs his players to be successful. His coaching ability revolves around pure hard work and physicality over anything else. Players consistently fail under him to later success with others due to the inability of him bending a teams pattern slightly to adopt a new player with a new technique and capability.

There are gaps in this team not because the board has avoided Jose- its because Jose has created gaps by his mismanagement/mis-coaching. He continues to use players in positions and formations that does not bode well with the squad at his disposal, favouring players with physicality over technique and so on.

Whilst alot of fans talk about City having the likes of silva, de bryune, aguero at the start of pep's career - Jose would have struggled to utilise them nearly as much never mind players like Sterling, Sane, Mahrez (why not him and willian instead? Is it work rate ), Stones whilst he would prefer a target man more like dzeko up front and de bryune & Silva would definitely not be allowed to play together as alternative AM's consecutively on the pitch - that was the role Jose gave to Oscar due to work rate too. Players like Zabaleta, Toure, Kolorov, Fernando, Nolito would still be in and around the first team plus plenty more.

The point is - Money that City has is an issue. However that is the second problem; our first being a lack of a proper coach as witnessed by a severe lack of a core understanding/gameplan of how we should play football.
We get a coach who is willing to manage the club with an open mind and give everyone in the squad an equal shot by assessing the best way to get out of a squad of 25 - then giving all the money we have to him is not as problematic & I'm sure we can spend alot as we spend alot more on an a individual player.

Instead we have a coach whose formation, tactics, players who would struggle, players who would succeed, preferred age, time he would last and have backing of team etc could be guessed before hand because he fundamentally is trying to create a short term plan that has previously led to short term success; so much so that he goes back to buy ex-players or buys players that are made to play like his ex players.

Get a better coach, give them more money. Jose has taken this squad as far as he can & willian + alderweireld would have made us scuff a title win at pure maximum without any pure long lasting footballing capability - because he simply does not focus on it.

 

[Rolaholic]

Manchester City have been very clever. Whilst we sit here crying about the money they have spent - that was already going to happen no matter who the manager is.

However, what they have done is hire arguably the best coach in the world who has an open, flexible mind who wants to try something new, make football entertaining, successful as well as attract young players as well as fans. Just the utilisation of mendy this season is stunning as an occasional inverted fullback to break deep lying defences. You have that type of coach and you give him the opportunity to buy who ever he wants, who ever he can afford spending billions.

Jose described himself perfectly when he said that he is regarded more as a coach than a manager at United; in that regards we have a very weak coach in comparison - whilst we have a good short term manager. He is not here to be open minded, flexible, try something new and make football entertaining whilst attracting young players - he is here to merely manage his choice of players to success - maybe winning one significant trophy in his life time here at old trafford.

Good players or not, technical players or not - he needs his players to be successful. His coaching ability revolves around pure hard work and physicality over anything else. Players consistently fail under him to later success with others due to the inability of him bending a teams pattern slightly to adopt a new player with a new technique and capability.

There are gaps in this team not because the board has avoided Jose- its because Jose has created gaps by his mismanagement/mis-coaching. He continues to use players in positions and formations that does not bode well with the squad at his disposal, favouring players with physicality over technique and so on.

Whilst alot of fans talk about City having the likes of silva, de bryune, aguero at the start of pep's career - Jose would have struggled to utilise them nearly as much never mind players like Sterling, Sane, Mahrez (why not him and willian instead? Is it work rate ), Stones whilst he would prefer a target man more like dzeko up front and de bryune & Silva would definitely not be allowed to play together as alternative AM's consecutively on the pitch - that was the role Jose gave to Oscar due to work rate too. Players like Zabaleta, Toure, Kolorov, Fernando, Nolito would still be in and around the first team plus plenty more.

The point is - Money that City has is an issue. However that is the second problem; our first being a lack of a proper coach as witnessed by a severe lack of a core understanding/gameplan of how we should play football.
We get a coach who is willing to manage the club with an open mind and give everyone in the squad an equal shot by assessing the best way to get out of a squad of 25 - then giving all the money we have to him is not as problematic & I'm sure we can spend alot as we spend alot more on an a individual player.

Instead we have a coach whose formation, tactics, players who would struggle, players who would succeed, preferred age, time he would last and have backing of team etc could be guessed before hand because he fundamentally is trying to create a short term plan that has previously led to short term success; so much so that he goes back to buy ex-players or buys players that are made to play like his ex players.

Get a better coach, give them more money. Jose has taken this squad as far as he can & willian + alderweireld would have made us scuff a title win at pure maximum without any pure long lasting footballing capability - because he simply does not focus on it.

Excellent post,agreed on just about all the major points.

I've never bought into certain fans claiming that Citeh had a vastly superior squad than us last season or even this season. On paper, United has arguably been the most talented side in the country since last season

The main difference, as you explained in great detail, is that one coach has been able to maximize on all that potential and get the most out of their talent, to spectacular results while the other objectively has not despite there not being much of a gap in quality outside of maybe one area in defence (even though Fabian fecking Delph was their starting LB for much of the season)

It's all much more to do with the system/philosphy on the pitch or lack thereof than anything the board is tasked with...

 

[endless_wheelies]

How can you say he's not remotely injury prone when he's been struggling with hamstring injuries for two seasons? His injury problems might be overstated, but he certainly has had issues with them recently and as you get older, the chances of reoccurrence are higher and this is certainly something that the board would have taken into consideration when doing their due diligence.

Huh? Why are you just making stuff up? He had the injury last season, a knee injury that kept him out for 5 weeks in 2016-2017, and was completely injury free 2015-2016.

Let's tackle his response to my post first:

"You think peak Nesta/Ferdinand would be £60m? You sound like Woodward with that "£100m for Varane" crap."

I don't know what the relation of the first statement is with the second statement.

Alderweireld has one year remaining on his contract. Spurs have an option of another year; however that will trigger a release clause of £25m. So yes, £60m for a recently injury inflicted, almost 29 1/2 year old not special defender who doesn't want to sign a new contract is a ridiculous amount, no matter how crazy the market has gotten.

Bonucci a much superior defender & similar age profile signed for Milan for 40m Euros and went back to Juve for a similar sum.

The relation is neither you nor Woodward appear to have any ability to place values on players in the current market. Your downplaying of Alderweireld are just poor opinions, most experts agree he's the best central defender we have in the Premier League - and in his prime - and while his contract situation may be advantageous, as you said we are dealing with Levy and the fact that we are Tottenham's direct rivals so you can whack £20m straight back on to whatever price reduction there would have been. Of course £60m is the upwards figure we heard for Alderweireld, other outlets said the asking price was closer to £40m. Either way, for the best central defender in the league, the exact profile that we need to take what is unaminously agreed as our weak central defence to the next level, £60m is a no-brainer.

Bonucci was a special case as he was said to be set on a move across Italy, so the pressure on price was infinitely lower due to increased power of buyer and decreased of seller. Prices banded about for Manchester City and Chelsea around that time for Bonucci were up to twice the fee Milan paid.

Just for my curiosity what is your answer to my question about how much peak Nesta/Ferdinand would cost in today's market?

Let's come to Varane: First, he is not the best young CB in the world. Second, he is very injury prone and misses large swathes of season out. Third, even if he was the best young CB & fit as a fiddle, no one will pay £150m for a CB. Even in this crazy market those prices are reserved for game changing attacking players. Only three players till date have cost more than £100m: Neymar, Mbappe & Coutinho. All three special game changers.
Sorry to break it to you, but you are exaggerating.

People are following the transfer window. It's only you who is not grasping that exorbitant prices are being paid for the very special players. Not simply good ones like Alderweireld with only one year left on their contracts.

First: who is the best young CB in the world?
Second: He missed 8 games last season - including an impact injury where he had stitches - I get you're desperately fumbling around for words to form some sort of argument but does this really qualify as vast swathes?
Third: Why not? He's a reasonably good looking, hyper-marketable lynchpin of World Cup and multiple Champions League winning sides. As we saw with the £75m purchase of Van Djik and the £72m purchase of Kepa, the days of even completely unproven defensive players being undervalued are over. Good defences are acknowledged to win titles as much as, maybe more so, than "game changing attackers", and defensive players of his caliber are an increasing scarcity. Throw in Real Madrid's financial power and desperation to never be seen as inferior in transfer power to anyone else, and the amount of powerful rival clubs we'd be competing against for his signature, and you can easily push his price up to @sunama's estimation of £150m.

Bleat on about only three £100m+ "special attacking players" in history if you like, firstly you're wrong as there've been four, secondly every single one of those came in the last year and I'd say neither Coutinho nor Dembele have the profile and desirability of Varane.

 

[Offsideagain]

Apparently, Ed Woodward said at a regular conference with investors that quote ‘ Playing performance doesn’t really have a meaningful impact on what we can do on the commercial side of the business ‘.

Now some may say that he is not backing the manager when he asked for certain individuals to be bought or that he didn’t want to spend the money on new players. Either way, JM must feel hamstrung by Woodward and Woodward must be bricking it with all this nonsense about Pogba maybe leaving. Pogba is the third most marketable sports person in the World apparently. Doesn’t matter to Woodward if we finish fourth as long as the Pogba merchandise keeps rolling out of the Megastore and the Glazers pay him his salary.

After all, that is Woodward’s job, to make as much money as possible for the owners. Jose will walk away sooner than we all think.

 

[Greck]

Apparently, Ed Woodward said at a regular conference with investors that quote ‘ Playing performance doesn’t really have a meaningful impact on what we can do on the commercial side of the business ‘.

Now some may say that he is not backing the manager when he asked for certain individuals to be bought or that he didn’t want to spend the money on new players. Either way, JM must feel hamstrung by Woodward and Woodward must be bricking it with all this nonsense about Pogba maybe leaving. Pogba is the third most marketable sports person in the World apparently. Doesn’t matter to Woodward if we finish fourth as long as the Pogba merchandise keeps rolling out of the Megastore and the Glazers pay him his salary.

After all, that is Woodward’s job, to make as much money as possible for the owners. Jose will walk away sooner than we all think.

Again Woodward has to say stuff like that at investors meetings to assure them on their investment and keep the club's commercial value from going down. It's best to reassure investors that the doom and gloom they watch about us on TV doesn't mean they will lose their money. It doesn't mean he wants to cheap out.

Reality is it's in the best interest of the board that we return to our winning ways or the cash cow that is our club will eventually start running dry. Truth is the value of our brand will start to decline if we stay this way for the next 5-10 years

 

[buckooo1978]

Apparently, Ed Woodward said at a regular conference with investors that quote ‘ Playing performance doesn’t really have a meaningful impact on what we can do on the commercial side of the business ‘.

Now some may say that he is not backing the manager when he asked for certain individuals to be bought or that he didn’t want to spend the money on new players. Either way, JM must feel hamstrung by Woodward and Woodward must be bricking it with all this nonsense about Pogba maybe leaving. Pogba is the third most marketable sports person in the World apparently. Doesn’t matter to Woodward if we finish fourth as long as the Pogba merchandise keeps rolling out of the Megastore and the Glazers pay him his salary.

After all, that is Woodward’s job, to make as much money as possible for the owners. Jose will walk away sooner than we all think.

a quote that suggests that the board aren't behind the team - I agree with the other poster that it sounds like a boast about the commercial side of the club rather than anything about not backing the team

they have spent over 700 million since Fergie left after all....

of that 700 million how much has been spent well

I'm torn about the last window - I liked Toby but not at any price- I think it might be wise for us to stop, analyse what's going wrong, hire a DoF who will help guide the allocation of funds

we've missed lots of opportunities to sign a top CB, a top RW or top full backs over the last 6 or 7 years

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Manchester City have been very clever. Whilst we sit here crying about the money they have spent - that was already going to happen no matter who the manager is.

However, what they have done is hire arguably the best coach in the world who has an open, flexible mind who wants to try something new, make football entertaining, successful as well as attract young players as well as fans. Just the utilisation of mendy this season is stunning as an occasional inverted fullback to break deep lying defences. You have that type of coach and you give him the opportunity to buy who ever he wants, who ever he can afford spending billions.

Jose described himself perfectly when he said that he is regarded more as a coach than a manager at United; in that regards we have a very weak coach in comparison - whilst we have a good short term manager. He is not here to be open minded, flexible, try something new and make football entertaining whilst attracting young players - he is here to merely manage his choice of players to success - maybe winning one significant trophy in his life time here at old trafford.

Good players or not, technical players or not - he needs his players to be successful. His coaching ability revolves around pure hard work and physicality over anything else. Players consistently fail under him to later success with others due to the inability of him bending a teams pattern slightly to adopt a new player with a new technique and capability.

There are gaps in this team not because the board has avoided Jose- its because Jose has created gaps by his mismanagement/mis-coaching. He continues to use players in positions and formations that does not bode well with the squad at his disposal, favouring players with physicality over technique and so on.

Whilst alot of fans talk about City having the likes of silva, de bryune, aguero at the start of pep's career - Jose would have struggled to utilise them nearly as much never mind players like Sterling, Sane, Mahrez (why not him and willian instead? Is it work rate ), Stones whilst he would prefer a target man more like dzeko up front and de bryune & Silva would definitely not be allowed to play together as alternative AM's consecutively on the pitch - that was the role Jose gave to Oscar due to work rate too. Players like Zabaleta, Toure, Kolorov, Fernando, Nolito would still be in and around the first team plus plenty more.

The point is - Money that City has is an issue. However that is the second problem; our first being a lack of a proper coach as witnessed by a severe lack of a core understanding/gameplan of how we should play football.
We get a coach who is willing to manage the club with an open mind and give everyone in the squad an equal shot by assessing the best way to get out of a squad of 25 - then giving all the money we have to him is not as problematic & I'm sure we can spend alot as we spend alot more on an a individual player.

Instead we have a coach whose formation, tactics, players who would struggle, players who would succeed, preferred age, time he would last and have backing of team etc could be guessed before hand because he fundamentally is trying to create a short term plan that has previously led to short term success; so much so that he goes back to buy ex-players or buys players that are made to play like his ex players.

Get a better coach, give them more money. Jose has taken this squad as far as he can & willian + alderweireld would have made us scuff a title win at pure maximum without any pure long lasting footballing capability - because he simply does not focus on it.

You can talk down the money aspect and the lack of quality players inherited by Mourinho all you like. You can also dislike his style of play. It can be boring. However, he is a proven winner when fully backed.

The real problem is our board. Taking money out of the club to pay their debt. Eventually our fans will wise up to this. We make alot more money than we spend but have the shackles on in the transfer window.

 

[steffyr2]

a quote that suggests that the board aren't behind the team - I agree with the other poster that it sounds like a boast about the commercial side of the club rather than anything about not backing the team

they have spent over 700 million since Fergie left after all....

of that 700 million how much has been spent well

I'm torn about the last window - I liked Toby but not at any price- I think it might be wise for us to stop, analyse what's going wrong, hire a DoF who will help guide the allocation of funds

we've missed lots of opportunities to sign a top CB, a top RW or top full backs over the last 6 or 7 years

I wonder how many trading windows we'll miss while we work out this strategy. Do you think we should offer to let our existing players go, since we can't field a MUQ team at the moment? I'm sure that wasn't what they signed up for.

 

[M4nu4Life]

Alderweireld was a no brainer. Best central defender in the league who despite what those on here think is not remotely in decline and not remotely injury prone.

At 29 he could have led our defence for the next 5 years.

Also if you look back on Mourinho's transfer history I'm not sure you'll find a large percentage of them are 29+.

Matic and Sanchez do not look like long term players to me. I think both will really struggle in the last years of their contract.

 

[ErranMorad]

The relation is neither you nor Woodward appear to have any ability to place values on players in the current market. Your downplaying of Alderweireld are just poor opinions, most experts agree he's the best central defender we have in the Premier League - and in his prime - and while his contract situation may be advantageous, as you said we are dealing with Levy and the fact that we are Tottenham's direct rivals so you can whack £20m straight back on to whatever price reduction there would have been. Of course £60m is the upwards figure we heard for Alderweireld, other outlets said the asking price was closer to £40m. Either way, for the best central defender in the league, the exact profile that we need to take what is unaminously agreed as our weak central defence to the next level, £60m is a no-brainer.

Bonucci was a special case as he was said to be set on a move across Italy, so the pressure on price was infinitely lower due to increased power of buyer and decreased of seller. Prices banded about for Manchester City and Chelsea around that time for Bonucci were up to twice the fee Milan paid.

Just for my curiosity what is your answer to my question about how much peak Nesta/Ferdinand would cost in today's market?

Yes, Woodward doesn't have any concept of value, but you some internet yahoo is an expert. Hilarious.

Yes, facts about Alderweireld's age, his injury last season, his appearance numbers going down each season at Spurs, his benching for Sanchez etc. are "my poor opinions". Also, he is not the best centerback on the league. Your insisting on that isn't going to change that fact.

First: who is the best young CB in the world?
Second: He missed 8 games last season - including an impact injury where he had stitches - I get you're desperately fumbling around for words to form some sort of argument but does this really qualify as vast swathes?
Third: Why not? He's a reasonably good looking, hyper-marketable lynchpin of World Cup and multiple Champions League winning sides. As we saw with the £75m purchase of Van Djik and the £72m purchase of Kepa, the days of even completely unproven defensive players being undervalued are over. Good defences are acknowledged to win titles as much as, maybe more so, than "game changing attackers", and defensive players of his caliber are an increasing scarcity. Throw in Real Madrid's financial power and desperation to never be seen as inferior in transfer power to anyone else, and the amount of powerful rival clubs we'd be competing against for his signature, and you can easily push his price up to @sunama's estimation of £150m.

Bleat on about only three £100m+ "special attacking players" in history if you like, firstly you're wrong as there've been four, secondly every single one of those came in the last year and I'd say neither Coutinho nor Dembele have the profile and desirability of Varane.

Varane has had 141 league appearances at Real since he joined them in 2011-2012, four less than Phil Jones who has had 145 for us.

"Reasonably good looking"
"hyper-marketable lynchpin of World cup"

Yet, I am the one "desperately scrambling around for words...."

Though, that's it for me. I am done with this discussion. You posts are juvenile with a childish playground tone looking to win internet brownie points. Not worth my time.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Yes, Woodward doesn't have any concept of value, but you some internet yahoo is an expert. Hilarious.

Yes, facts about Alderweireld's age, his injury last season, his appearance numbers going down each season at Spurs, his benching for Sanchez etc. are "my poor opinions". Also, he is not the best centerback on the league. Your insisting on that isn't going to change that fact.



Varane has had 141 league appearances at Real since he joined them in 2011-2012, four less than Phil Jones who has had 145 for us.

"Reasonably good looking"
"hyper-marketable lynchpin of World cup"

Yet, I am the one "desperately scrambling around for words...."

Though, that's it for me. I am done with this discussion. You posts are juvenile with a childish playground tone looking to win internet brownie points. Not worth my time.

You've made 125 posts in 2 weeks, not being rude but I doubt your time is that valuable tbqh. Don't worry though I have little to add to your post anyway as you addressed almost none of the points I made, seemingly strategically dodging to focus on my supposed style of writing. Cutting through the insults I see something about age (29? Ronaldo is 34 and went for £100m) and appearances going down (which is essentially the same point as the injury and losing his place to Sanchez but I suppose you had to pad it out somehow). To address, he's only been there for three seasons, where he appeared 38 times in the league (no injuries), 30 times (one minor injury), and 14 times (first bad injury in his career) - though he would have recorded more if Pochettino hadn't kicked him out of the first 11 due to the contract situation, nothing to do with Sanchez becoming superior as you seem to suggest. So basically two good seasons, then a bad injury last year combined with a contract dispute... it happens. According to Alderweireld he was actually fully fit again in January after his November injury; if this is true then it's no more than Messi was out for in 13/14, so I think you're overplaying his injury record as a value destroyer, at least to the tune of £50/60m no longer being worth it (especially when you factor in direct rival/Levy tax). As Gary Neville said, "It’s not too much at £50million(?) because ultimately you’ve just got to get the players in", which is my thinking too - we had the money, he was the exact player to take our weak central defence to a higher level, it was a no-brainer. Also if you read this thread and ctrl+f Alderweireld, you'll find you're quite alone in not rating Alderweireld.

I see some more insults (why are Varane's looks and World Cup win unrelated to market value?) then you write about Varane's appearance numbers since 2011-2012 to try and back up a point about injuries, most likely knowing full well he was second choice to Pepe in the first three or four seasons, then he, Ramos and Pepe all have similar numbers till 2017 (when Pepe left) due to the heavy rotation policy they had - it's nothing to do with injuries. Then like I said previously (though I wrongly said 8), 2017-2018 he missed 6 games through injury - including one simple impact injury where he required stitches - so I feel entitled to ask why you call him "injury prone who missed large swathes of the season out"? That combined with all the points you ignored in my last post makes him a £150m+ player.

To round off your problem is you only seem able to come at this from Manchester United's negotiating standpoint - it's Real Madrid who would set the price unfortunately. Even if you were correct about injuries and told them "nobody will pay £150m", you can bet someone would. He's THE name on every club's defensive dream wishlist; certainly Woodward's. Think how the value of Mayfair rises as a game of monopoly progresses; lots of clubs have ridiculous amounts of money, only Real Madrid have Varane.

 

[ErranMorad]

I could have made 12500 post in two weeks and still your childish gibberish won't be worth my time.

Jesus Christ!

 

[buckooo1978]

I wonder how many trading windows we'll miss while we work out this strategy. Do you think we should offer to let our existing players go, since we can't field a MUQ team at the moment? I'm sure that wasn't what they signed up for.

I wonder too.... I'd like to think we could have it organised by January but it would be wise to wait for the right man

if it meant waiting for someone like Monchi until next May then so be it

throwing money at players who might need replaced would be idiotic

this is the issue...you are thinking short term when any top organisation plans in the medium to long term

not sure what you mean by MUQ

 

[Fracture90]

If you look 10 years back than they also signed absolute world class players like Aguero, Silva etc. and De Bruyne recently who elevate their side to completely different level. I don't think we've had players of that caliber in our team since Ronaldo left (except RVP for one season) so, I think the blame lies with us for not competing with City for those players. How many of our signings in our recent history are technically as good as those players?

Those weren't the world class players when they bought them, they were immensely talented but they also got developed at City.

 

[Fracture90]

When i saw city squad today and especially after comments here how great they are and how great pep is, i am more pissed on our board. In Pep's squad today were five 60mil( 5 mil more or less) players in defence, 60 mil winger, 60 mil players on bench. Everything what he wanted he got it.
Our coach wanted new winger. Didn't get it. Our coach wanted one full back. Didn't get it.
Our coach wanted leader central defender. Didn't get it.
My point is that i think that this was that season where our squad will be finally jose's squad. Like city or liverpool are for their coaches. Board of richest club in the world failed to do that for our manager. This was capital mistake from them.

Dude you can't expect board to grats his every wish, especially if they're unreasonable on have 0 resale value.

Grant, Dalot, Bailly, Lindelof, Matić, Fred, Pogba, Sanchez(Miki), Lukaku that's 9 players, his players in the squad, not counting Grant and Dalot and you have 7 of the first team players he signed, you can't expect the board to get him all 23 squad players of his choosing.

He gotta develop what he already has and prove he can get the best out of them.

Allowing him to splash 70 million on players hitting 30 and giving them massive wages that will soon need replacing is simply not sustainable.

 

[Grande]

Dude you can't expect board to grats his every wish, especially if they're unreasonable on have 0 resale value.

Grant, Dalot, Bailly, Lindelof, Matić, Fred, Pogba, Sanchez(Miki), Lukaku that's 9 players, his players in the squad, not counting Grant and Dalot and you have 7 of the first team players he signed, you can't expect the board to get him all 23 squad players of his choosing.

He gotta develop what he already has and prove he can get the best out of them.

Allowing him to splash 70 million on players hitting 30 and giving them massive wages that will soon need replacing is simply not sustainable.

There is certainly a middle ground between ‘granting every wish’ and not strengthening weak positions’.

City has done better than us in that regard, that is unquestionable. Are they out if reach, financially? Maybe. Are Guardiola more shrewd at getting players than Mourinho? I doubt that, history doesn’t back it up. Is Begiristain better at understanding worth vs value for squad than Woodward? I’m absolutely certain of it.

 

[B20]

If I were a 'glass half empty' united fan, I'd be preparing myself for the eventuality of simply writing off the season.

The summer was wasted on inaction by a board that no longer believes in Mourinho, yet inexplicably didn't sack him nor take any other action to back a project they do believe in.

Then once the window closes, they start up a new DoF project that won't generate any actionable results for the first team for at least six months and probably a year before it's properly operational. In the meantime, you have a manager who hasn't been backed in the summer and whose position is obviously being subverted now the window is closed. The writing is basically on the wall that, barring a miracle, Mourinho will be out on his arse in the summer. The players will know it too and we all know that some of your biggest names would love to see him go. I reckon once it starts to look like you won't win the title, there'll be players downing tools, chelsea-style, hoping for him to be out by january [givad 'te giggs]. Que the howling chorus of ex-united players fanning the flames alongside it all.

You can say Mourinho has made his bed and has to lie in it, which to some extent may be true, but his performance is vastly overshadowed by the incompetence of the board this summer. Who the feck does Woodward think he is? A chairman making footballing decisions his business and undermining the man he hired for that very job. Fecking abominable. I'd find it disturbing that the top man is seemingly unaware of his own limitations.

But most all of, it's the horrid indecisiveness that has marred every move he's made this summer. It cast a shadow over the transfer window with his "let's see how it goes with us being neither here nor there; being between two stools can work wonders during your window of critical action needed to improve" approach. And now it casts a shadow over the entire season as the club intends to do a re-structuring that will obviously affect the manager's position while the fecking football is happening. A competent chairman would have announced such a project as soon as last season ended, giving the manager time to adjust (and make his own decision if he doesn't like it) and actually be able to use the window properly and go into the new season of the back of a newly implemented structure.

Really, the moment Woodward sacks Mourinho he should tender his own resignation as well. His tenure will have been nothing short of shocking.

 

[Fracture90]

There is certainly a middle ground between ‘granting every wish’ and not strengthening weak positions’.

City has done better than us in that regard, that is unquestionable. Are they out if reach, financially? Maybe. Are Guardiola more shrewd at getting players than Mourinho? I doubt that, history doesn’t back it up. Is Begiristain better at understanding worth vs value for squad than Woodward? I’m absolutely certain of it.

Everyone and their grandma knows we're in dire need to sign a RW for 3 years now yet we never addressed that issue. Furthermore we had Mourinho coming out in March saying he's happy with his attacking options and he's not looking to strengthen that part of the pitch any further.

Ofc I agree with the first you've said and I also believe that we are on that middle ground, board not granting Mourinho ageing players for exuberant fee's on insane wages is their way of telling him "we backed you, yet you still berate us publicly, now is time you show us you can actually get the best out of what you already have, before we approve another few hundred millions for signings".

 

[Grande]

Everyone and their grandma knows we're in dire need to sign a RW for 3 years now yet we never addressed that issue. Furthermore we had Mourinho coming out in March saying he's happy with his attacking options and he's not looking to strengthen that part of the pitch any further.

Ofc I agree with the first you've said and I also believe that we are on that middle ground, board not granting Mourinho ageing players for exuberant fee's on insane wages is their way of telling him "we backed you, yet you still berate us publicly, now is time you show us you can actually get the best out of what you already have, before we approve another few hundred millions for signings".

To be honest, I hope Woodward doesn’t use transfer decisions to send messages to Mourinho. As we don’t really know how badly Mourinho has wanted a rightsided attacker (regardless of what he said to press) and we don’t really know how exuberant his wish list was (regardless of what has been leaked or not leaked to the press), it’s not very safe to say who is in the right about what.

What is safe to say, is that Woodward or anyone else at the board does not have the competence to responsibly evaluate wether someone like Mourinho is wrong or right about his assesments of a players value to the club/squad. There is no way.

 

[steffyr2]

I wonder too.... I'd like to think we could have it organised by January but it would be wise to wait for the right man

if it meant waiting for someone like Monchi until next May then so be it

throwing money at players who might need replaced would be idiotic

this is the issue...you are thinking short term when any top organisation plans in the medium to long term

not sure what you mean by MUQ

Man Utd Quality

It looks alot like Utd has decided they can't afford to complete, so they're taking their ball and going home. (or setting up a new company structure, same thing)....last 6 months to think of the idea only to present it after a failed trading window, next select a DoF in January at the earliest (can't buy with the new guy coming in!), then 6 months to come up with a structure (no buys next summer!), then maybe start an implementation.

I guess you all think Mourinho will walk away? I think the players will, their careers are short.

 

[B20]

I guess you all think Mourinho will walk away? I think the players will, their careers are short.

They will sack mourinho first. They've stopped Martial from going and will want to stop pogba from going as well, regardless of Mourinho's wishes. Next step is replacing him. When the manager loses power, player power on the increase is the next step.

 

[steffyr2]

They will sack mourinho first. They've stopped Martial from going and will want to stop pogba from going as well, regardless of Mourinho's wishes. Next step is replacing him.

Pogba has his pick of the best, most well-organized teams in the world. Why would he stay at a team who can't afford players, and who is going on a multi-year rebuilding project?
Does Martial actually ever do anything?

The only numbers I could see was that Mourinho was on 20m a year, is that right? 2 more years @ 20 million each year is a large part of a pretty good center defender.

 

[Greck]

They will sack mourinho first. They've stopped Martial from going and will want to stop pogba from going as well, regardless of Mourinho's wishes. Next step is replacing him. When the manager loses power, player power on the increase is the next step.

You almost make it sound like we should let Jose sell Martial and Pogba.