Bowling for Columbine

[Rams]

Went to see it Saturday, excellent documentory.
reckon one or two of the more gun-ho right winged yanks should go and watch it.

Charlton Heston is a complete and utter prat.

USA = very strange country

 

[Wibble]

They would think that it was a communist plot to overthrow their god and country.

 

[Rams]

which would give them even more of an excuse to buy more weapons <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

whats the bet that none of them have seen it?

ignorant twats...

 

[Rams]

back to the top...

don't be shy, please feel free to express your opinions

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[Wibble]

Feck off you commie muppet

 

[sin65]

Not seen the film yet but I`m reading Michael Moores "Stupid white men" at the moment and its an excellent read.

 

[Rams]

still no reply from any of our american friends.

It's ironic, you get over 1 billion posts on here about subjects this documentory was dealing with, yet by the looks of things hardly anyone has bothered to watch it.

It makes you wonder if the (american) people on here are as educated on these matters as they make you out to believe.....

<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>still no reply from any of our american friends.

It's ironic, you get over 1 billion posts on here about subjects this documentory was dealing with, yet by the looks of things hardly anyone has bothered to watch it.

It makes you wonder if the (american) people on here are as educated on these matters as they make you out to believe.....

<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

What's there to reply to. You Europeans get wet over an American taking a critical look at the United States. Since he is from the left, most sit there and worship him like a god. Many also have this stereotypical view of Americans, and as such, is there really any need to respond to this?

 

[26 may 1999]

Obviously there is...

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by 26 may 1999:
<strong>Obviously there is...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Obviously there isn't. Three years ago, I might actually have cared what you Europeans thought of America and Americans. I think most Americans as of now, correctly, just deem you lot to be irrelevant.

 

[Rams]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

What's there to reply to. You Europeans get wet over an American taking a critical look at the United States. Since he is from the left, most sit there and worship him like a god. Many also have this stereotypical view of Americans, and as such, is there really any need to respond to this?</strong><hr></blockquote>


you were right wibble.....

have you seen it? I found that Moore's arguments were very well substantiated, which is a hell of a lot more than that can be said for yours.


<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

 

[Raoul]

Most Euros seem to like him, though he's almost universally mocked for his extreme views over here.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>


you were right wibble.....

have you seen it? I found that Moore's arguments were very well substantiated, which is a hell of a lot more than that can be said for yours.


<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I haven't made an argument, and I really don't see a point in it.

 

[26 may 1999]

I agree with Matt.

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>Most Euros seem to like him, though he's almost universally mocked for his extreme views over here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't mock him, and I actually enjoy his films. But, I do disagree with him.

 

[26 may 1999]

David Icke's got all the answers.

 

[Jade]

I watched it..he has some good points..BUT..i live in Michigan...all my life...and its news to me about banks with guns and bullets in the barber shops..he HAD to have went to the smallest back woods hickville town he could find..or he made it up,havent decided yet.

didnt change my mind about guns tho,just think Dick Clark is an asshole.

when your places of residence are the bastion of perfection,do let me know..k?

 

[Rams]

So none of the the yanks are open minded enough to take his views in to account?

There are hardly any yanks on here who even remotely substantiate their arguments. In fact some of the factual non-truths Ive read over the last few months is beyond belief.

To be honest you sound a bit thick <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>So none of the the yanks are open minded enough to take his views in to account?

There are hardly any yanks on here who even remotely substantiate their arguments. In fact some of the factual non-truths Ive read over the last few months is beyond belief.

To be honest you sound a bit thick <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

We can listen to one's views, take them in to account and still disagree with them.

 

[Rams]

Originally posted by Jade:
<strong>I watched it..he has some good points..BUT..i live in Michigan...all my life...and its news to me about banks with guns and bullets in the barber shops..he HAD to have went to the smallest back woods hickville town he could find..or he made it up,havent decided yet.

didnt change my mind about guns tho,just think Dick Clark is an asshole.

when your places of residence are the bastion of perfection,do let me know..k?</strong><hr></blockquote>

FACT: USA had well over 11.000 gun related murders in 2001. The UK (which probably has the largest number of shitholes per square meter in the western world) only 160summink. whysthatthen??????? (DOH)

(and I havent even started on the privatisation of the yanks' welfare sceme...)

 

[Rams]

Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

We can listen to one's views, take them in to account and still disagree with them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

alright then, why do you disagree? cos he's "left wing"?????? have you actualy seen the movie? or even read a book of his before?

 

[Jade]

Guess what rams? U all dont live here,so stop fretting and whinning about gun laws that dont affect u,the day some cowboy goes to england and starts shooting the place up..then u can bitch..till then..mind your own.I find it amusing that we shouldnt be concerned about possible wmd in Iraq,but europeans are very concerned about American gun laws,last I knew a gun couldnt shoot across the atlantic and surely noone would twist your arm to come visit..........talk about thick

 

[Rams]

Originally posted by Jade:
<strong>Guess what rams? U all dont live here,so stop fretting and whinning about gun laws that dont affect u,the day some cowboy goes to england and starts shooting the place up..then u can bitch..till then..mind your own.I find it amusing that we shouldnt be concerned about possible wmd in Iraq,but europeans are very concerned about American gun laws,last I knew a gun couldnt shoot across the atlantic and surely noone would twist your arm to come visit..........talk about thick </strong><hr></blockquote>

oh but it does effect the rest of the world. you see it's not only about the gun laws as such, it's about the general narrow minded american attitude.
You see, this attitude is also to be found in their foreign policies......

Btw, there are a lot americans agree with Moore. Bet they're well educated.........

 

[Jade]

I never said i didnt agree with some of what he said...but truth has many sides..and if hes going to be espousing he knows all then he should have added:

1) Law men present at scene reported engaging in gun battles with shooters on the roof of the school. This happened, but Timelime of Klebold and Harris(K & H.)puts them in the library at that time.
2) Many student reports of bodies in school corridors but no official reports of any dead found there.
3) Masssive amount of bombs in school. Too many for K. & H. to have brought in themselves.
4) Many eye witness reports of heavy gunfire all afternoon, yet, K. & H. were dead around noon.

5) Police detained men in camo suits around scene but released them. These men knew what was going on. This was before any news broadcasts radio or TV of what was happening
7) Based on witness reports, there had to be more than two shooters. Yet, somehow this was never followed up.
8)Many student reports of seeing shooters with masks, but video shows K & H. never wore masks.
9) No attempt by SWAT team to get to wounded and dying teacher even though students repeatedly told everyone there he needed help and his exact location.
10)Swat teams were in the building very soon after arrival, but there appears to be a cover story being promoted that they weren´t.
11)many students are reluctant to discuss what they saw and heard some going as far as to say they cannot reveal this information.
12)Bombs said to be crude, homemade devices, yet student reports of walls in school being blown down.
13)Many student reports of automatic gunfire, yet K. & H. did not have automatic weapons.

 

[Rams]

Originally posted by Jade:
<strong>I never said i didnt agree with some of what he said...but truth has many sides..and if hes going to be espousing he knows all then he should have added:

1) Law men present at scene reported engaging in gun battles with shooters on the roof of the school. This happened, but Timelime of Klebold and Harris(K & H.)puts them in the library at that time.
2) Many student reports of bodies in school corridors but no official reports of any dead found there.
3) Masssive amount of bombs in school. Too many for K. & H. to have brought in themselves.
4) Many eye witness reports of heavy gunfire all afternoon, yet, K. & H. were dead around noon.

5) Police detained men in camo suits around scene but released them. These men knew what was going on. This was before any news broadcasts radio or TV of what was happening
7) Based on witness reports, there had to be more than two shooters. Yet, somehow this was never followed up.
8)Many student reports of seeing shooters with masks, but video shows K & H. never wore masks.
9) No attempt by SWAT team to get to wounded and dying teacher even though students repeatedly told everyone there he needed help and his exact location.
10)Swat teams were in the building very soon after arrival, but there appears to be a cover story being promoted that they weren´t.
11)many students are reluctant to discuss what they saw and heard some going as far as to say they cannot reveal this information.
12)Bombs said to be crude, homemade devices, yet student reports of walls in school being blown down.
13)Many student reports of automatic gunfire, yet K. & H. did not have automatic weapons.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you seem to be missing the point here Jade.

 

[Jade]

add....
Information kept "under wraps" include the fact that the first victim was shot (´winged´ actually) a full one minute before the two boys eventually convicted of the massacre walked into the school. They were some 30 yards away at the time. 72mm shell casings were found in locations the boys were never at; and at least 12 sworn depositions from students specifically stated that "we didn´t recognize the shooters," and "pipe bombs, what pipe bombs? They were throwing grenades!"; and the ATF was observed planting the 30 pound bombs AFTER the shootings and AFTER the school had been swept twice. There are many discrepancies that cannot be simply explained away or ignored.

One common thread is that every one of these people accused of many of these shootings either has a parent currently or previously involved with some sort of Military Intelligence agency, (Naval Intelligence, CID, The Air Force´s Psy Ops -- pscyhological operations, etc.), and have spent time with various Military personnel and psychologists ostensibly for the purpose of "counseling" or "treatment."


no rams..im not missing the point...the fact is i firmly believe these events were helped along with full government support...even UN support,as they were there early on as well...the point? To push for anti gun legislation,its easier to control the populace if they are unarmed...oklahoma city was also government created.
so your positon is what? Forcefully take away everything but butter knives so no one gets hurt? And why we all squabble about race,politics,religion and jerry springer and gun laws...the world is turning to shit and spinning out of control.Im just saying u anti gun fanatics need to see the bigger picture...the criminals will always have guns...always,thats why they are "criminals"..they dont follow the law...can u legislate that? didnt think so.

 

[Rams]

Jade, this is what the backward brits make of guns....

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2631097.stm" target="_blank">Gun law shake-up unveiled</a>

Now, the Brits are backwards mark my words. So what must that make (a lot of) the Americans?

Remember 11.000 to 160

 

[mathiaslg]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>Btw, there are a lot americans agree with Moore. Bet they're well educated.........</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> I love it. If we don't agree with Moore, we aren't well educated. Become a comedian Rams, it suits you.

 

[Rams]

so math, why do you disagree?

 

[Jade]

I dont think the brits are backwards..i rather like u guys..and no..i dont own a gun,but i will defend anothers right to legally have one.

 

[26 may 1999]

Why Jade?

It isn't a right here and we're all ok.

 

[Wibble]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>


you were right wibble.....

have you seen it? I found that Moore's arguments were very well substantiated, which is a hell of a lot more than that can be said for yours.


<img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

No I haven't but I'd like to. I'm trying to download a copy from KaZaA at the moment.

 

[Wibble]

Originally posted by Jade:
<strong>Guess what rams? U all dont live here,so stop fretting and whinning about gun laws that dont affect u </strong><hr></blockquote>

I get the gist of what you are saying but US gun laws do influence the rest of the world to some degree. The gun/drug related crime in the UK is (partly only) fueled by US culture through music/film etc etc. I'm not trying to blame the US for UK crime as such or arguing for censorship. Merely pointing out that the US does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[JSV]

All I know is that i'm 40 times less likely to be a victim of gun crime here than in the US. Happy days.

 

[geordie1]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>
have you seen it? I found that Moore's arguments were very well substantiated, </strong><hr></blockquote>

And which arguments were those? He made a couple of good points, but he didn't really come to a conclusion.

Plus there were quite a few contradictions in the film. If guns aren't the problem (Canada has roughly the same number of guns per household as the US) then why does he try to get them off the shelves in K-mart?

And while I agree that this 'culture of fear' exists, I didn't think he did enough to demonstrate--semi-historical cartoons notwithstanding--that it was the cause of the problems he is addressing.

Anyway, don't Yanks have very good reason to be more fearful of their neighbours than Canadians? After all, a burglar is far more likely to kill them! 11,000 to 160 or summat.

I was very impressed how he got K-Mart to completely stop selling bullets. I fully expected them to ignore him.

 

[Jade]

i hear u wibs..we dont live in a vacuum...but i still fail to see how gun laws here affect u guys.I could see if we were insisting u must have guns,but i dont think thats the case.From what you and neil have said on the subject..id say your battle is more with the entertainment industry..gangsta rap and such (which btw more than a few on here seem to LOVE)so what are u saying? u like the thought but not the reality that goes with it?

 

[Rams]

errrrrrrrr.....

I think his conclusion was that the american society was fed by fear.

....and selling guns over the counter to this nurotic population isnt exactly wise.

 

[FresnoBob]

To me, even after we get past the second Amendment and its meanings, no "debate" on the "gun culture" in the US is complete until we subdivide into legally owned and illegally owned weapons, as well as criminal acts versus "accidents." As I've said on various occasions, in my 14 years (as of Thursday, the 9th of January) in the District Attorneys office, I have handled a lot of shooting cases, but none with a weapon legally owned by the perpetrator. There have been some brandishings and threats by registered owners, but those who have purchased and registered seem less inclined to pull the trigger.

 

[geordie1]

Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>
I think his conclusion was that the american society was fed by fear.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Don't Americans have every reason to be afraid though? Considering the amount of murders that occur there?

He didn't demonstrate to me that Americans are particularly more prone to fear-responses than anyone else.

I don't think, for example, that the American media are markedly more fear inducing than, say, the British. There are whole threads on here which reek of fear (of America, Iraq, terrorism, etc.), and often in those threads Americans are chastised not for being too fearful of these problems, but for being ignorant of them or ignoring them.

 

[mr. destro]

Originally posted by geordie1:
<strong>
I don't think, for example, that the American media are markedly more fear inducing than, say, the British.</strong><hr></blockquote>

have to disagree there sir, the american media is insane when it comes to peddling the paranoia. pre-9/11 or 11/9 i remember seeing a prime-time cbs news story on the dangers of diving into pools and getting paralyzed from the neck down. this was on one of the biggest news stations in the country.. ffs, that's not news, that's just drivel

local news is even worse, "up next at 6, 18 and a third reasons why eating grapefruits COULD cause you to think twice about leaving your house" delivered with all the feigned concern of a bad actor

it's really really bad, worse than you can imagine, i promise.