Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

Tarrou

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It’s really getting kinda annoying that you can’t criticise stuff anymore without some form of whatsboutism flying back in your face
 

JustAGuest

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It’s really getting kinda annoying that you can’t criticise stuff anymore without some form of whatsboutism flying back in your face
It seems like the default response for when what's being criticised cannot be defended.
 

Giggsyking

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No, neither of those things are the problem. The problem doesn't warrant green smilies. The human rights issues are the problem. That clip is part of the circus that has been built around the problem .
Israel, the beacon of human rights. Last country on earth that should speak about human rights is Israel. They are the worst country on planet. Far worse than the likes of Qatar.
 

Drizzle

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Israel, the beacon of human rights. Last country on earth that should speak about human rights is Israel. They are the worst country on planet.
I mean that's objectively untrue on pretty much every metric. Human lives lost, human rights, etc. There are probably dozens worse. But clearly they've earned your particular disgust for some reason.
 

Giggsyking

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It seems like the default response for when what's being criticised cannot be defended.
One could argue that when someone call out hypocrisy, the first word the others can find when they cant defend the undefendable is say "whataboutism".
 

Giggsyking

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I mean that's objectively untrue on pretty much every metric. Human lives lost, human rights, etc. There are probably dozens worse. But clearly they've earned your particular disgust for some reason.
Whatever makes you sleep at night, good day sir.
 

Tarrou

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Israel, the beacon of human rights. Last country on earth that should speak about human rights is Israel. They are the worst country on planet. Far worse than the likes of Qatar.
North Korea is way worse for sure

but it’s not a contest obviously
 

moses

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Israel, the beacon of human rights. Last country on earth that should speak about human rights is Israel. They are the worst country on planet. Far worse than the likes of Qatar.

Fans of the state of Israel are few. We have threads here discussing it.

So nobody in Israel is allowed a voice?

By your logic we must assume you are from an amazing society with no injustice and an impeccable government considering how much you have to say on moral issues?

Where is this blemish free land from which you come?
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
One could argue that when someone call out hypocrisy, the first word the others can find when they cant defend the undefendable is say "whataboutism".

It's not hypocrisy unless you know the indidual.

What is hypocrisy however is you defending the Qatari state and having a go at Israel when they are both human rights abusers.

On that I'm consistent yet you are not, and that's the only actual hypocrisy in the thread.
 

JustAGuest

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One could argue that when someone call out hypocrisy, the first word the others can find when they cant defend the undefendable is say "whataboutism".
Of course, but it should be possible to criticise what's going on in Qatar without having to be met with "but what about X, Y and Z?"
 

Giggsyking

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Fans of the state of Israel are few. We have threads here discussing it.

So nobody in Israel is allowed a voice?

By your logic we must assume you are from an amazing society with no injustice and an impeccable government considering how much you have to say on moral issues?

Where is this blemish free land from which you come?
Sweden is one of the best countries in the world human rights wise. On top of that they have not been in a war in 300 years and try to be impartial in world conflicts through out the years.
 

Zen86

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Sweden is one of the best countries in the world human rights wise. On top of that they have not been in a war in 300 years and try to be impartial in world conflicts through out the years.
What is the historical cutoff point for doing bad things and being allowed to criticise human rights abuse and slavery?
 

Giggsyking

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It's not hypocrisy unless you know the indidual.

What is hypocrisy however is you defending the Qatari state and having a go at Israel when they are both human rights abusers.

On that I'm consistent yet you are not, and that's the only actual hypocrisy in the thread.
If you want to ignore the fact I criticized Qatar on literally everything, but at the same time I called out hypocrisy of the others, its up to you.

I said multiple times they are a backward state with inhumane laws that should change now.
 

ElBarto

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That's just obviously not true, it's such a terrible argument and disputable on multiple levels. Many working opportunites fail to work out even when slavery is not involved. The words regret, missold, desperation, exist, and can explain how many people seeking work end up in negative situations. There is even the idiom The grass isn't always greener... that could explain misplaced assumptions about the conditions in Qatar. The application of choice (or the illusion of such) is not synonymous with favourable outcome.

Also, many upon arrival were subjected to slave conditions that they were not expecting. Through debt bondage, the confiscation of passports and the kafala system. With reports of physical and sexual abuse.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/MDE22/004/2014/en/

What you are doing is placing the blame on exploited victims in order to defend abuse. Why are you doing this shitty thing?

Why are you being so wrong?
OK firstly appreciate the reply that includes some actual detail and counter balance rather than just taking a pot shot. My post was too simplistic in hindsight and granted there is much more nuance to it than my take, so apologies to anyone offended.

I don't profess to be an SME on the matter but likewise I've been out there a few times over the years, during the summer and its a graft, a really hard life one that I do empathise with (believe it or not). So let's have some genuine dialogue and if you can educate me in the process brilliant.

Why do their home countries not kick off and remove them or complain in the media? Are they complicit by not defending their citizens?

Why are the stats so disparate? Guardian said 6500 then later amended that. Seen others say 15k and then some really low numbers.

Why does Dubai, the UAE, Saudi etc not get the same bad press and scrutiny even though its the same, in fact worse labour practices that have gone on for many decades before the 2022 bid was submitted? Worldcup has the spotlight for obvious reasons but why have we not had dialogue about UAE in particular prior to this or were peoples moral compasses malfunctioning before the 2022 bid.

The premise of my original post was: their economies must be so bad for so many of them to go... granted some of them must think "wtf have I signed up for" but likewise many will know or will have heard about what they're signing up for, but they still do it. Why are they that desperate?

Are their economies that bad? which was the point I was trying to make. If they're that desperate to leave their homes for those conditions let's engage in some root cause analysis.

Is it feasible to look as the remnants of the Empire and EIC in this? £45 trillion looted from the Indian Subcontinent (not that long ago in the scheme of things). If there were genuine reparations made to that part of the world would that shift the power imbalance, put their economies where they ought to be and thus give them more bargaining power?

Has anyone looked at creating NGOs or charities to help these folk out financially or do any already exist?
 

RUUD_10_LEGEND

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I'm kinda torn. I want to boycott it, but don't want to miss out and I'm intrigued as to what it's all going to be like. I know I won't watch most of the games because they fall during work time, but today's one, I might have to have on on my laptop while I play the Witcher 3 on my PC. Just by doing that though I'm giving them a viewing figure. I don't mind giving the beeb a viewer, but this World Cup in general really needs fewer viewers worldwide to make a point that people aren't happy about it.
 

UpWithRivers

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One could argue that when someone call out hypocrisy, the first word the others can find when they cant defend the undefendable is say "whataboutism".
You are right a lot of the whataboutery is pointing out other horrific and indefensible actions. However when someone points out whataboutism what they are saying is 'Yes I agree that's bad as well but can we stay on topic.'. This thread is about Quatar. If you want to talk about other infractions, wrongdoing etc then create a separate thread. I doubt you will get many people arguing that slavery wasn't bad, Iran isn't bad, Wars by all countries aren't bad and on and on. But we are discussing Qatar.
 
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moses

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Sweden is one of the best countries in the world human rights wise. On top of that they have not been in a war in 300 years and try to be impartial in world conflicts through out the years.

So you're Swedish? Isn't that the hypocritical West?

They have a really advanced arms manufacturing industry. And have lots of dubious activities that I don't want to derail the thread with.
 

moses

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If you want to ignore the fact I criticized Qatar on literally everything, but at the same time I called out hypocrisy of the others, its up to you.

I said multiple times they are a backward state with inhumane laws that should change now.
Even better, you can criticise but others can't. That's hypocrisy too.
 

Drizzle

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I would accept that from a Swedish media outlet, not an Israeli.
What about a Saudi media outlet? Chinese? Russian? Iranian? Egyptian?

Wonder where the cutoff is for your moral purity to allow media comment from. Or is it just Israeli?
 

moses

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I would accept that from a Swedish media outlet, not an Israeli.
Are you ok with Sweden's arms sales records?

In June 2021 – not even two months after the Gaza massacre – Sweden allowed Elbit Systems, one of Israel’s biggest arms manufacturers, to open a Swedish branch.

“Sweden is an important market for Elbit Systems and a cornerstone for further expansion in Europe,” Haim Delmar, the chair of Elbit Systems Sweden, stated.

The weapons deals quickly followed. In January, the Swedish navy signed a $27 million contract with Elbit for “combat management systems.”

Last month, the Swedish army signed another $27 million contract with the Israeli company, this time to purchase 120mm tank shells.

https://electronicintifada.net/blog...he Swedish army,to purchase 120mm tank shells.


Their dubious neutraility in WW2? What about the rise of the right and the UN commentary on the rise of hate crimes?

Now I love Sweden and have no issue with them at all, but as you have placed yourself above most of us and are deciding who can and who cannot speak I'm trying to pinpoint your criteria.
 
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moses

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OK firstly appreciate the reply that includes some actual detail and counter balance rather than just taking a pot shot. My post was too simplistic in hindsight and granted there is much more nuance to it than my take, so apologies to anyone offended.

I don't profess to be an SME on the matter but likewise I've been out there a few times over the years, during the summer and its a graft, a really hard life one that I do empathise with (believe it or not). So let's have some genuine dialogue and if you can educate me in the process brilliant.

Why do their home countries not kick off and remove them or complain in the media? Are they complicit by not defending their citizens?

Why are the stats so disparate? Guardian said 6500 then later amended that. Seen others say 15k and then some really low numbers.

Why does Dubai, the UAE, Saudi etc not get the same bad press and scrutiny even though its the same, in fact worse labour practices that have gone on for many decades before the 2022 bid was submitted? Worldcup has the spotlight for obvious reasons but why have we not had dialogue about UAE in particular prior to this or were peoples moral compasses malfunctioning before the 2022 bid.

The premise of my original post was: their economies must be so bad for so many of them to go... granted some of them must think "wtf have I signed up for" but likewise many will know or will have heard about what they're signing up for, but they still do it. Why are they that desperate?

Are their economies that bad? which was the point I was trying to make. If they're that desperate to leave their homes for those conditions let's engage in some root cause analysis.

Is it feasible to look as the remnants of the Empire and EIC in this? £45 trillion looted from the Indian Subcontinent (not that long ago in the scheme of things). If there were genuine reparations made to that part of the world would that shift the power imbalance, put their economies where they ought to be and thus give them more bargaining power?

Has anyone looked at creating NGOs or charities to help these folk out financially or do any already exist?
These are already oppressed people with very few rights. Predators prey on the weak. Economic migrants have always been victims in our human story, on every continent through the ages. Yes there are agencies that care but when you are dealing with a dictatorship, that help is not wanted and not readily accepted. . Yes we are complicit to a degree, but while we are vaguely connected due to the structure of society and economics the blame must lie at the feet of the actual perpetrators and those profiting from the suffering.
 

Andrade

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It seems like the default response for when what's being criticised cannot be defended.
False. People respond in that way because certain atrocities get talked about all the time and other, arguably worse atrocities never get talked about (or if they are talked about, the key perpetrators of those atrocities never get held to account by the media) for very nefarious reasons. It's not about 'defending' any particular wrongdoing, it's about exhorting people to 'keep that same energy' across the board. Otherwise what are we doing?

I've seen reports of 6,500 workers dying in Qatar. A tragedy. But dozens of Western corporations do business with them because they're oil rich. That's OK apparently. A million Iraqis died in the war for oil but there's no issue holding the World Cup in the UK or the US. Why? Because it's OK to kill a million people outside your borders but not 6,500 within them?

It's OK to hold the World Cup in Russia but Qatar is where we draw the line? I guess Russia's sort of in Europe so that was OK at the time? Brazil was another comtroversial choice due to human rights issues. But it's the home of football so that's OK? The competition was previously awarded to Argentina when it was under a military junta, and thousands of dissidents were literally killed as the tournament was going on. Let that sink in.....

I just want to know who is coming to this with clean hands and the right to lecture others. That's all. Football is corrupt. The world is corrupt. From top to bottom. If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all, and peg it as a convenient distraction from the real things that are going on in the world
 

Abizzz

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False. People respond in that way because certain atrocities get talked about all the time and other, arguably worse atrocities never get talked about (or if they are talked about, the key perpetrators of those atrocities never get held to account by the media) for very nefarious reasons. It's not about 'defending' any particular wrongdoing, it's about exhorting people to 'keep that same energy' across the board. Otherwise what are we doing?

I've seen reports of 6,500 workers dying in Qatar. A tragedy. But dozens of Western corporations do business with them because they're oil rich. That's OK apparently. A million Iraqis died in the war for oil but there's no issue holding the World Cup in the UK or the US. Why? Because it's OK to kill a million people outside your borders but not 6,500 within them?

It's OK to hold the World Cup in Russia but Qatar is where we draw the line? I guess Russia's sort of in Europe so that was OK at the time? Brazil was another comtroversial choice due to human rights issues. But it's the home of football so that's OK? The competition was previously awarded to Argentina when it was under a military junta, and thousands of dissidents were literally killed as the tournament was going on. Let that sink in.....

I just want to know who is coming to this with clean hands and the right to lecture others. That's all. Football is corrupt. The world is corrupt. From top to bottom. If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all, and peg it as a convenient distraction from the real things that are going on in the world
So basically anyone can do anything because someone else done something too?
 

moses

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False. People respond in that way because certain atrocities get talked about all the time and other, arguably worse atrocities never get talked about (or if they are talked about, the key perpetrators of those atrocities never get held to account by the media) for very nefarious reasons. It's not about 'defending' any particular wrongdoing, it's about exhorting people to 'keep that same energy' across the board. Otherwise what are we doing?

I've seen reports of 6,500 workers dying in Qatar. A tragedy. But dozens of Western corporations do business with them because they're oil rich. That's OK apparently. A million Iraqis died in the war for oil but there's no issue holding the World Cup in the UK or the US. Why? Because it's OK to kill a million people outside your borders but not 6,500 within them?

It's OK to hold the World Cup in Russia but Qatar is where we draw the line? I guess Russia's sort of in Europe so that was OK at the time? Brazil was another comtroversial choice due to human rights issues. But it's the home of football so that's OK? The competition was previously awarded to Argentina when it was under a military junta, and thousands of dissidents were literally killed as the tournament was going on. Let that sink in.....

I just want to know who is coming to this with clean hands and the right to lecture others. That's all. Football is corrupt. The world is corrupt. From top to bottom. If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all, and peg it as a convenient distraction from the real things that are going on in the world

You see, that's the nonsense and total fabrication. Nobody thinks that's ok. Can you show me anyone who has attacked Qatar and defended corporations? You can't because its a lazy assumption based on ignorance.

Also, the issue is though they are corporations, and while people boycott them, they are not a Nation state who codify their abuses.
 

Bole Top

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So basically anyone can do anything because someone else done something too?
actually... yes? not because someone else has done "something", but because everyone is forgiven and everything is forgotten after a while anyway. the club of sinners should be more inclusive, imo.
 

Giggsyking

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You are right a lot of the whataboutery is pointing out other horrific and indefensible actions. However when someone points out whataboutism what they are saying is 'Yes I agree that's bad as well but can we stay on topic.'. This thread is about Quatar. If you want to talk about other infractions, wrongdoing etc then create a separate thread. I doubt you will get many people arguing that slavery wasn't bad, Iran isn't bad, Wars by all countries aren't bad and on and on. But we are discussing Qatar.
There is a such thread, and believe me you will be surprised there too.
 

Abizzz

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actually... yes? not because someone else has done "something", but because everyone is forgiven and everything is forgotten after a while anyway. the club of sinners should be more inclusive, imo.
It's complete nonsense. I am responsible for my actions, and the Qatari government is responsible for it's actions. I'm not responsible for something someone else has done at some point in history, and the Qatari's aren't responsible for anything they had no role in.

Yet we have hoards of posters who wouldn't know sh1t about the injustices of the west if western governments were still run like the current Qatari government is run complaining about things done to someone else by people long dead. They absolutely ignore that much of the "west" was against whatever injustice they claim for their cause. Be it WW2, be it Iraq, slavery etc. Yet they act like the west as a collective shares responsibility for every action ever undertaken by anyone they perceive to be part of the west.

It's as silly as claiming all muslims are responsible for ISIS or honor killings or 911 or whatever other of the countless atrocities perpetrated by some muslims in human history. No muslim is responsible for anything other than their own actions. And the Qatari government is responsible for nothing but their own actions, but they are responsible for those.
 

The Firestarter

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Are some people that mentally deficient and can't separate the individual from the country, as well as the country now from the country 200 years ago?
 

NoLogo

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It's complete nonsense. I am responsible for my actions, and the Qatari government is responsible for it's actions. I'm not responsible for something someone else has done at some point in history, and the Qatari's aren't responsible for anything they had no role in.

Yet we have hoards of posters who wouldn't know sh1t about the injustices of the west if western governments were still run like the current Qatari government is run complaining about things done to someone else by people long dead. They absolutely ignore that much of the "west" was against whatever injustice they claim for their cause. Be it WW2, be it Iraq, slavery etc. Yet they act like the west as a collective shares responsibility for every action ever undertaken by anyone they perceive to be part of the west.

It's as silly as claiming all muslims are responsible for ISIS or honor killings or 911 or whatever other of the countless atrocities perpetrated by some muslims in human history. No muslim is responsible for anything other than their own actions. And the Qatari government is responsible for nothing but their own actions, but they are responsible for those.
Well said.

Can you critique Europe for it's past? Most definitely and I think few Europeans would ever say you have no right to do this, heck I think a lot of use are very critical of our own past as well. I'm German, so I'm especially not proud of my heritage. That being said my parents also raised me to understand just because someone else did something fecked up to me, it didn't make it okay for me to do something fecked to them, but it seems a lot of people weren't raised that way.
 

Gehrman

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False. People respond in that way because certain atrocities get talked about all the time and other, arguably worse atrocities never get talked about (or if they are talked about, the key perpetrators of those atrocities never get held to account by the media) for very nefarious reasons. It's not about 'defending' any particular wrongdoing, it's about exhorting people to 'keep that same energy' across the board. Otherwise what are we doing?

I've seen reports of 6,500 workers dying in Qatar. A tragedy. But dozens of Western corporations do business with them because they're oil rich. That's OK apparently. A million Iraqis died in the war for oil but there's no issue holding the World Cup in the UK or the US. Why? Because it's OK to kill a million people outside your borders but not 6,500 within them?

It's OK to hold the World Cup in Russia but Qatar is where we draw the line? I guess Russia's sort of in Europe so that was OK at the time? Brazil was another comtroversial choice due to human rights issues. But it's the home of football so that's OK? The competition was previously awarded to Argentina when it was under a military junta, and thousands of dissidents were literally killed as the tournament was going on. Let that sink in.....

I just want to know who is coming to this with clean hands and the right to lecture others. That's all. Football is corrupt. The world is corrupt. From top to bottom. If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all, and peg it as a convenient distraction from the real things that are going on in the world
For me a lot of it is that those thousands of foreign workers died specifically to build those stadiums for the world cup. Its like a modern version of building pyramids. With most of the other countries their wrong doings had nothing to do with WC in general.
 

Grande

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If you want to ignore the fact I criticized Qatar on literally everything, but at the same time I called out hypocrisy of the others, its up to you.

I said multiple times they are a backward state with inhumane laws that should change now.
I think one problem that you, Infantino and a few others face when trying to make ‘hypocrisy’ the main focus of discussion, is that since you don’t know the persons you are accusing, the only logic you can base it on is to group people by nationality, ethnisity, geography etc, and generalize from that. That way of thought is of course part of the problem of racism in itself. Added to that, is the selfcontradiction that if there are or have ever excisted hypocrites from your nation, your part of the world, your religion or anything that you can be grouped by, by that logic you are doubly hypocritical for calling out members of other groups for hypocrisy until all hypocrisy in your own group have been eradicated and apologized for sufficiently.

This is not the most important problem, though. That people, actual people, are enslaved, imprisoned, tortured even, that is a much bigger problem than hypocrisy. The people suffering this are not helped by silencing critics in a self righteous fight against ‘hypocrisy’.
 

lefty_jakobz

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Taking a thread off topic
What about a Saudi media outlet? Chinese? Russian? Iranian? Egyptian?

Wonder where the cutoff is for your moral purity to allow media comment from. Or is it just Israeli?
And what if an Israeli National works for said Swedish media outlet? You’re a joke.
Slightly dissapointed neither of you used the anti semitism angle yet.
 

2mufc0

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It's as silly as claiming all muslims are responsible for ISIS or honor killings or 911 or whatever other of the countless atrocities perpetrated by some muslims in human history. No muslim is responsible for anything other than their own actions. And the Qatari government is responsible for nothing but their own actions, but they are responsible for those.
we have people asking where is the islamaphobia , when here is a perfect example. Honour killings are a cultural/geographical issue rather than a religious one, why is this issue tied to Muslims only?
 

Andrade

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You see, that's the nonsense and total fabrication. Nobody thinks that's ok. Can you show me anyone who has attacked Qatar and defended corporations? You can't because its a lazy assumption based on ignorance.

Also, the issue is though they are corporations, and while people boycott them, they are not a Nation state who codify their abuses.
I said a lot of things in my post, try addressing all of them rather than throwing your toys out of the pram. Whilst you're at it, try answering some of the questions I posed. That might help. Please also leave out words like 'ignorance', there's nothing I referenced that I'm ignorant about. Again, try not to get emotional in a message board discussion.