Brexit related judicial reviews: Supreme Court | Judgment: Prorogation was unlawful

[Pexbo]

This is completely ridiculous. This is the same as saying that a primeminister is not democratically elected for the same reasons.

The Prime Minister hasn’t been democratically elected, you’re right. He’s been picked by members of his own party.

 

[Fully Fledged]

This is completely ridiculous. This is the same as saying that a primeminister is not democratically elected for the same reasons.

They're not that is why the courts are saying that parliament is sovereign not the PM.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

OK if you really want to do this ... then pick one subject and lets debate it.


I am happy to have a debate on one subject at a time so it is not so over whelming. I am just getting inundated with posts and I have also have a life! The onus has been on me to justify my decision / change of heart with lots of angry posters who are not really adding anything to a debate but because they are in the majority they are riding on others coat tails.

Lets say trade deals to start with ...

I am confident that there is plenty of trade out there from other countries. We import the most from Germany and export the most to the USA. Worse case scenario is that there are additional tariffs to pay but business is business and the key will also be the performance of the pound. A brexit solution may also create a bounce effect. The pound against the dollar has been appalling for the last 3 years.

Being able to negotiate as a single entity will have its advantages as well as disadvantages.

When I import from USA I pay import duty and there are companies out there that sort that out for me before the goods arrive at my door so doing the same if we leave is not a concern.

The argument is that trade deals take a long time but hardly surprising when you consider how many countries have been involved.

I am trying to to think of one product - outside energy - that a country could hold us to ransom with.

So you want to pay tariffs on goods from the EU, don't think the pound is going to collapse when the UK leaves and the UK will have all the world's countries to negotiate new deals with.
Where have you got your research from?

 

[Alex99]

@K13 where have you been getting your research from?

 

[K13]

So you want to pay tariffs on goods from the EU, don't think the pound is going to collapse when the UK leaves and the UK will have all the world's countries to negotiate new deals with.
Where have you got your research from?

As I said we may have to pay tariffs or they may be waived whilst an agreement is put in place.

How do you know the pound is going to collapse? Carney said it would before the referendum and it didn't

Do you think anyone knows for certain?

 

[K13]

@K13 where have you been getting your research from?

Where have you got your's from?

 

[JPRouve]

When I import from USA I pay import duty and there are companies out there that sort that out for me before the goods arrive at my door so doing the same if we leave is not a concern.

It may not be a concern for you but it's a concern for professionals, margins are thin and time costs money. Also people will lose their jobs for that very reason.

 

[K13]

It may not be a concern for you but it's a concern for professionals, margins are thin and time costs money. Also people will lose their jobs for that very reason.

I am a professional - I run my own business.

 

[JPRouve]

I am a professional - I run my own business.

And what do you import or export? What are your supply chains and how times do your goods cross borders before getting to the consumer?

 

[Jippy]

As I said we may have to pay tariffs or they may be waived whilst an agreement is put in place.

How do you know the pound is going to collapse? Carney said it would before the referendum and it didn't

Do you think anyone knows for certain?

Having to pay tariffs will hit consumers in the pocket for a start.

 

[K13]

I import many things from USA, Holland and Germany

 

[Alex99]

Where have you got your's from?

I've not claimed to have any. You're the one throwing round claims of amazing research. I want to read it.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

The Prime Minister hasn’t been democratically elected, you’re right. He’s been picked by members of his own party.

No. He is elected as party leader by members of his own party. In the current situation, the leader became primeminister based on the government being democratically elected to power in 2017.
The country will soon be given another chance to democratic elect him as primeminister for another 4 / 5 years.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

As I said we may have to pay tariffs or they may be waived whilst an agreement is put in place.

How do you know the pound is going to collapse? Carney said it would before the referendum and it didn't

Do you think anyone knows for certain?

The pound did collapse after the referendum - but it will definitely without a shadow of a doubt collapse even further if the Uk leave, especially without a deal. Agreements will take five to ten years on average to be put in place and the UK have dozens of agreements in place at the moment because of being a member of the EU. The UK haven't got the staff or experience to deal with making new agreements with dozens of countries and your biggest partners are on your doorstep with no tariffs, VAT or delays to worry about.

I have no dog in the fight as they say but have over 30 years experience in international trading and dealing in the currency markets.

 

[K13]

I've not claimed to have any. You're the one throwing round claims of amazing research. I want to read it.

My research came from listening to people who voted to leave and remain. Picking out the things I could relate to.

I occasionally review the left and the right wing broad sheets but it is very difficult to gleam the truth from either as they both have their agendas.

I find the bbc is good with facts - they have a very good section away from the political pages where they outline what has been done and needs to be done.

 

[Massive Spanner]

As I said we may have to pay tariffs or they may be waived whilst an agreement is put in place.

How do you know the pound is going to collapse? Carney said it would before the referendum and it didn't

Do you think anyone knows for certain?

The pound did collapse.

 

[K13]

The pound did collapse after the referendum - but it will definitely without a shadow of a doubt collapse even further if the Uk leave, especially without a deal. Agreements will take five to ten years on average to be put in place and the UK have dozens of agreements in place at the moment because of being a member of the EU. The UK haven't got the staff or experience to deal with making new agreements with dozens of countries and your biggest partners are on your doorstep with no tariffs, VAT or delays to worry about.

I have no dog in the fight as they say but have over 30 years experience in international trading and dealing in the currency markets.

I have only 2 decades so I bow to your experience.

I am not saying there will be no problems but I left the safety of a blue chip company to set up my own business and it was hard to start with but subsequent years more than made up for it.

We use to make our own trade agreements so would it be such a bad thing if we developed that skill again. Maybe the tariff, vat and delays will be offset by better long term trade deals with new partners.

 

[Alex99]

My research came from listening to people who voted to leave and remain. Picking out the things I could relate to.

I occasionally review the left and the right wing broad sheets but it is very difficult to gleam the truth from either as they both have their agendas.

I find the bbc is good with facts - they have a very good section away from the political pages where they outline what has been done and needs to be done.

But you said you researched outside of the mainstream papers? Broadsheets are mainstream papers, and you don't get much more mainstream than the BBC.

Unless you're fact checking what you're being told by other people, it's not reliable research at all.

You keep telling people to "research", said that they had to do it outside of mainstream papers, and now you're telling us that your research were the same mainstream papers you were telling people to avoid, and what we can only assume was a bunch of random people of unknown reliability.

As the only bit of research you've apparently done outside of the mainstream media, I'm very interested in what exactly these people who voted leave and remain told you? For someone who apparently had their opinion so drastically changed by their research, particularly the research that took place outside of the mainstream media, it strikes me as incredibly odd that this research consisted solely of a few chats. You've seemingly not fact checked any of it, because you've not managed to come with some proper sources for these things you've been told that affected you so greatly.

Have you got anything concrete? Something that's not, "my mate said..."?

 

[K13]

The pound did collapse.

It did but only a 'flash crash' and not the prolonged crash that was anticipated

 

[Massive Spanner]

It did but only a 'flash crash' and not the prolonged crash that was anticipated

It's consistently gone down in value for the last three years against the euro and dollar. How much more prolonged can you get?

Also, you haven't left yet, the predicted crash hasn't even happened yet.

 

[K13]

But you said you researched outside of the mainstream papers? Broadsheets are mainstream papers, and you don't get much more mainstream than the BBC.

Unless you're fact checking what you're being told by other people, it's not reliable research at all.

You keep telling people to "research", said that they had to do it outside of mainstream papers, and now you're telling us that your research were the same mainstream papers you were telling people to avoid, and what we can only assume was a bunch of random people of unknown reliability.

As the only bit of research you've apparently done outside of the mainstream media, I'm very interested in what exactly these people who voted leave and remain told you? For someone who apparently had their opinion so drastically changed by their research, particularly the research that took place outside of the mainstream media, it strikes me as incredibly odd that this research consisted solely of a few chats. You've seemingly not fact checked any of it, because you've not managed to come with some proper sources for these things you've been told that affected you so greatly.

Have you got anything concrete? Something that's not, "my mate said..."?

What do you want from me? It sounds as though you want me to quote a list of sources and justify my opinion because it differs from your's.

Can you not just accept that I read, listen and make my own mind up based on what I have learn't.

Surely you have done the same?

 

[VeevaVee]

Woman when I was getting my hair cut before: "I can't believe they went against Boris like that"
Hairdresser: "why?"
"I just can't believe they've gone against him"

About as in depth as the majority of leavers get.

 

[K13]

It's consistently gone down in value for the last three years against the euro and dollar. How much more prolonged can you get?

Also, you haven't left yet, the predicted crash hasn't even happened yet.

Of course it has - nothing is resolved and we are in limbo. It rallies and then drops.

 

[Rado_N]

It did but only a 'flash crash' and not the prolonged crash that was anticipated

It absolutely bloody plummeted and has carried on falling since. Where the hell are you doing this research?

 

[Ultimate Grib]

It did but only a 'flash crash' and not the prolonged crash that was anticipated

For someone who imports stuff for a living how can you be so oblivious to the value of the pound?

It was at its highest for a decade aginst the euro prior to the referendum in the 1.40s, and 1.30s directly before the vote while now it titters between 1.05 and 1.15.

How is 25% wiped off the value of a major currency not a collapse? Were you expecting Zimbabwean levels?

 

[unchanged_lineup]

What do you want from me? It sounds as though you want me to quote a list of sources and justify my opinion because it differs from your's.

Can you not just accept that I read, listen and make my own mind up based on what I have learn't.

Surely you have done the same?

Well, yeah.

 

[K13]

For someone who imports stuff for a living how can you be so oblivious to the value of the pound?

It was at its highest for a decade aginst the euro prior to the referendum in the 1.40s and 1.30s directly before the vote while now it titters between 1.05 and 1.15.

How is 25% wiped off the vale of a major currency not a collapse? Were you expecting Zimbabwean levels?

I am not oblivious - I stated quire clearly that it has been dropping for the last 3 years.

My response was to re-negotiate our deals.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I have only 2 decades so I bow to your experience.

I am not saying there will be no problems but I left the safety of a blue chip company to set up my own business and it was hard to start with but subsequent years more than made up for it.

We use to make our own trade agreements so would it be such a bad thing if we developed that skill again. Maybe the tariff, vat and delays will be offset by better long term trade deals with new partners.

I saw you said you deal with Holland and Germany as well as the USA - if you are importing products from there,of course depending on which type of products are involved, but this will increase your paperwork, involve paying VAT, assuming the pound does devalue will make your products more expensive even without any tariffs and you will have all the VAT to sort out whereas now it's just a figure in a box.

From what you said previously I take it you are using a freight forwarder to deal with the paperwork but as so much business is done between the UK and the EU countries, how will these freight forwarders cope with the incredible increase in documentation that will be required.
I've sold all over the world to all over the world, nothing is stopping the UK trading currently, just have to deal with the requirements of the country you are dealing with but if you are dealing with a country far away you have time to deal with this because of the transit time but not with countries only a few hours or days away.

Doing your trade deals as a single country will make you less attractive (because you are only offering the UK market instead of access to 28 countries) and less powerful than doing them with a bloc of countries) and you haven't enough time to gain this experience

 

[Massive Spanner]

Of course it has - nothing is resolved and we are in limbo. It rallies and then drops.

Right, it collapsed. You said it hadn't, so I'm glad we cleared that up.

 

[K13]

I saw you said you deal with Holland and Germany as well as the USA - if you are importing products from there,of course depending on which type of products are involved, but this will increase your paperwork, involve paying VAT, assuming the pound does devalue will make your products more expensive even without any tariffs and you will have all the VAT to sort out whereas now it's just a figure in a box.

From what you said previously I take it you are using a freight forwarder to deal with the paperwork but as so much business is done between the UK and the EU countries, how will these freight forwarders cope with the incredible increase in documentation that will be required.
I've sold all over the world to all over the world, nothing is stopping the UK trading currently, just have to deal with the requirements of the country you are dealing with but if you are dealing with a country far away you have time to deal with this because of the transit time but not with countries only a few hours or days away.

Doing your trade deals as a single country will make you less attractive (because you are only offering the UK market instead of access to 28 countries) and less powerful than doing them with a bloc of countries) and you haven't enough time to gain this experience

The worse case scenario - of course we are prepared for it. We have been stock piling for sometime.

 

[K13]

Right, it collapsed. You said it hadn't, so I'm glad we cleared that up.

Your words not mine .. I did not say collapsed.

 

[Alex99]

What do you want from me? It sounds as though you want me to quote a list of sources and justify my opinion because it differs from your's.

Can you not just accept that I read, listen and make my own mind up based on what I have learn't.

Surely you have done the same?

I'm not the only one challenging you. You're claiming that you previously supported Remain but have now switched to Leave, and you have done this through "research" that you have told other people to do.

You are making claims and assertions without supporting your point, and instead telling people to do "research".

When you say it sounds like I want a list of sources, I pretty much do. You have presented yourself as someone who thought one thing, but was then exposed to something that completely changed their mind. However, when challenged on what this "thing" was, you are unable to tell anyone.

You are on a forum that leans left, and in a thread in which I'd wager the majority of posters supported the side you are claiming to have defected from. It is not at all odd that these people have some interest in what it was that caused you to change your mind, and your repeated skirting around the question is only fuelling the belief that you lied about ever being a Remain supporter.

You told people to research away from mainstream media when asked how you formed your opinions, but when pushed to respond with what research you had done that apparently formed those opinions, came back with broadsheets and the BBC.

Any healthy debate has people challenge the assertions made by others, particularly when those assertions go against the grain, as it were. You can't just respond with "do some research and you'll see" when faced with those challenges and expect people to take you seriously.

I'm not expecting you to source literally everything you write, but some idea of how you went from voting Remain to seemingly staunchly supporting Leave would perhaps help people understand your perspective a bit more. You've not managed to come up with a single thing. No articles, no blogs, no videos, no documentaries. Absolutely nothing. The only thing you've said is that you've had some conversations with people of entirely unverifiable reliability, which is never a strong basis for an argument, particularly not one that is apparently in complete opposition to what you'd have argued fairly recently.

So again, outside of "my mate said...", what research have you actually done, that took you from voting Remain, to supporting Leave as avidly as you are now?

 

[sammsky1]

So far the only reasons I've heard for voting leave have been

To stop prisoners being given the vote.

To stop being involved in the formation of a United States of Europe

And somebody saying they have loads of reasons but it's too intricate and complex to talk about them on here.

Is that it?

Even the unsaid reason of ‘I hate immigrants’ won’t be solved by Leave.

EU migrants will simply be replaced by Indian, Chinese and other non EU large trading nation immigrants as part of the new trade deals.

Government recently announced relaxing the foreign student visa conditions, which would allow foreign students who paid for and graduated from UK universities to stay and work for upto 2 years (vs non work stay of 6 Months).

Unfortunately for the racist minded leave voters, the new immigrants will be more ‘darkies’ and not ‘pinkies’. More pesky Muslims too. Tommy Robinson head will explode.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Your words not mine .. I did not say collapsed.

Yes, you did.

Unless you didn't know that collapsed is the adjective of collapse?

 

[stepic]

Your words not mine .. I did not say collapsed.

How do you know the pound is going to collapse? Carney said it would before the referendum and it didn't

umm

 

[K13]

Yes, you did.

Unless you didn't know that collapsed is the adjective of collapse?

I said up and down ... you said Collapsed.

I also said that I believed it was due to the uncertainty - where as you have indicated it was because the referendum elected to leave.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

This is completely ridiculous. This is the same as saying that a primeminister is not democratically elected for the same reasons.

Not really because I'm not using the Prime Minster as a reason not to have another vote. You're claiming that the "will of the people" must be enacted even though there's tons of evidence that the electorate were misled in the first instance, and we're now three years on from the last vote which is a lot of time in politics.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It did but only a 'flash crash' and not the prolonged crash that was anticipated

The jitters started in November 2015, then the £ was $1.5468 and €1.4290
On 21st June 2016 just before the referendum £ was $1.4869 and €1.3056
Today and it has been lower £ is $1.2489 and €1.1334

 

[Alex99]

Yes, you did.

Unless you didn't know that collapsed is the adjective of collapse?

We're dealing with someone who said their research was done away from what the mainstream media was telling them, then when questioned what this research was, came back with, "broadsheet newspapers, the BBC, and my mate Phil who voted Leave."

 

[Massive Spanner]

I said up and down ... you said Collapsed.

I also said that I believed it was due to the uncertainty - where as you have indicated it was because the referendum elected to leave.

Jesus Christ, you could just go back and actually read your post and save yourself the embarrassment.

How do you know the pound is going to collapse? Carney said it would before the referendum and it didn't/QUOTE]