All that’s really great guys, apart from the one small detail that Swinson pointed out that everyone seems to be overlooking, that moderate Tories are not about to overthrow their own government just to see it replaced by Jeremy Corbyn.
But Gary Linekar eats nothing but Walkers Crisps so how can you trust that his judgement is good for you?It’s is one of the most frustrating things about the Remain movement in general. It’s constantly telling everybody very loudly that they’re all idiots unless they do exactly what they want, without having any real mandate or authority to do so, and then seem perpetually baffled and even outraged when people won’t simply just do it.
Leave won the Referendum, Corbyn has won two Leadership contests, and yet everyone needs to sit down and listen to the sensible adults in C̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶ ̶U̶K̶ the Lib Dems because they say so...
And they’re completely oblivious to the optics of this, because Gary Linekar and James O Brien are on their side, or something.
But the Tories have a threadbare governing mandate - and some of the Remain Tories still with the party have tried to pass themselves off as impassioned Remainers. If they are wanting to stand up to that conviction then they should be backing Corbyn and Swinson should be absolutely hounding them for it.All that’s really great guys, apart from the one small detail that Swinson pointed out that everyone seems to be overlooking, that moderate Tories are not about to overthrow their own government just to see it replaced by Jeremy Corbyn.
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For all their faults Labour have now committed to a no-deal Brexit. Corbyn's been shite on the issue for the most part but he's still leader of the opposition and so is the kingmaker here. The Lib Dems will have to work with him if they want to stop it.How is Jeremy offering the surest way to prevent a No Deal Brexit ?
- is he
a) going to sign the Withdrawal Agreement
or
b) Revoke A50
No, I thought not.
Yes but words mean nothing, the LibDems obviously don't trust him and they're probably not alone.For all their faults Labour have now committed to a no-deal Brexit. Corbyn's been shite on the issue for the most part but he's still leader of the opposition and so is the kingmaker here. The Lib Dems will have to work with him if they want to stop it.
They obviously don't trust him, and with good reason. He's been crap on the EU for the most part and has an incredibly Eurosceptic history. But all the same he's the leader of the largest Remain party (generally speaking) and thus they have to work with him.Yes but words mean nothing, the LibDems obviously don't trust him and they're probably not alone.
But what action is going to be taken to stop it. A GE and even a referendum would not stop it, and a fantasy deal certainly won't. There are only two ways to stop it which I listed above.
But which Tories are going to back Corbyn as PM? Need over ten I think.But the Tories have a threadbare governing mandate - and some of the Remain Tories still with the party have tried to pass themselves off as impassioned Remainers. If they are wanting to stand up to that conviction then they should be backing Corbyn and Swinson should be absolutely hounding them for it.
And it's not to mention that when asked whether she would prefer No Deal to a Corbyn government she was seemingly hesitant. Again, her actual power here is minimal - working with Corbyn is surely the strongest chance she's got of going against a No Deal Brexit. Labour obviously aren't going to get rid of their own leader to placate a party with less than 15-20 MP's.
I may not have the maths exactly here but isn't the current Tory working majority incredibly threadbare and basically only one or two MP's away from breaking down? And if that was the case, wouldn't that potentially be enough to at least bring down the government and force either a change of government or election?But which Tories are going to back Corbyn as PM? Need over ten I think.
But there are quite a number of MPs who are independent and with no intention of voting for Corbyn as PM. That's why there's a distinction between a no confidence motion in Boris (could well pass) and a confidence motion in Corbyn (won't). Corbyn's doing this for the politics, and to be fair it's pretty smart. As I said earlier though, I'm not sure why the Lib Dems don't back him, then when it fails ask why he's not stepping aside for others to try (answer being obvious).I may not have the maths exactly here but isn't the current Tory working majority incredibly threadbare and basically only one or two MP's away from breaking down? And if that was the case, wouldn't that potentially be enough to at least bring down the government and force either a change of government or election?
Agree with most of what you say but looking from the outside, firstly Labour does not look like a Remain party and secondly his proposal looks like a cheap way of trying to get to no.10. If he wants to look like a remain party he should abandon his "we can negotiate a better deal" rubbish and actually go all out remain.They obviously don't trust him, and with good reason. He's been crap on the EU for the most part and has an incredibly Eurosceptic history. But all the same he's the leader of the largest Remain party (generally speaking) and thus they have to work with him.
They've been arguing for him to be more solidly Remain from the start...but now he's actually adopting a position they like, that's not enough? Do they expect him to just stand down? If so they're being remarkably naive/cynical/both. Again, the Lib Dems command about 2% of Westminster MP's. They don't have any substantive power here.
There are plenty of Remain Tory MP's who have set out their EU credentials thus far. Certainly enough to bring down a hard Brexit-leaning government. If they aren't willing to back Corbyn here then (like Swinson) a no-deal Brexit clearly doesn't bother them as much as they're claiming it does.
Fox News Corporation?Who the hell is FNC?
Grieve, Spelman, Letwin, Boles have confirmed they'll meet with Corbyn to discuss his proposal. Guto Bebb also said that he'd consider backing the proposal. The SNP, Green Party and Plaid Cymru have all displayed a willingness to discuss it. The idea that the government would have to be led by some backbench MP like Clarke or Harman is a Lib Dem fantasy derived from their overriding hostility to Corbyn.All that’s really great guys, apart from the one small detail that Swinson pointed out that everyone seems to be overlooking, that moderate Tories are not about to overthrow their own government just to see it replaced by Jeremy Corbyn.
Think LibDems will back down, as they seem isolated in their stance. Even their new MP thinks it is the pragmatic thing to do.Grieve, Spelman, Letwin, Boles have confirmed they'll meet with Corbyn to discuss his proposal. Guto Bebb also said that he'd consider backing the proposal. The SNP, Green Party and Plaid Cymru have all displayed a willingness to discuss it. The idea that the government would have to be led by some backbench MP like Clarke or Harman is a Lib Dem fantasy derived from their overriding hostility to Corbyn.
Yeah, it has not been a good day for the Lib Dems at all. Well done to the Labour leadership for once. Whether Swinson will actually yield on her unwillingness to countenance Corbyn as the leader of a temporary alliance remains to be seen though. My instinct is no but perhaps internal pressure as No Deal edges ever closer may force her hand.Think LibDems will back down, as they seem isolated in their stance. Even their new MP thinks it is the pragmatic thing to do.
Spelman has said there are no circumstance under which she’d vote for Corbyn as PM. The others have just said they’ll meet with him to discuss possible options, nothing more. Bebb is the only one who has sounded remotely like he might be a potential.Grieve, Spelman, Letwin, Boles have confirmed they'll meet with Corbyn to discuss his proposal. Guto Bebb also said that he'd consider backing the proposal. The SNP, Green Party and Plaid Cymru have all displayed a willingness to discuss it. The idea that the government would have to be led by some backbench MP like Clarke or Harman is a Lib Dem fantasy derived from their overriding hostility to Corbyn.
Think its harsh lumping all Lib Dems in with this policy. It's a Swinson policy largely born out of her trying to sound tough in her leadership race, now she's stuck with it or will at least needs to put up a good show before overturning it.Think LibDems will back down, as they seem isolated in their stance. Even their new MP thinks it is the pragmatic thing to do.
A lot. First off Corbyn isn’t really offering a referendum. He is offering a GE which could go either way. The referendum comes a long way later if he wins the GE and if he gets the renegotiation he wants. There’s little to no chance of that happening based on how labour are polling. However a Tory win would see a no deal Brexit without any recourse.Isn't Corbyn saying that it is a temporary unity government with all the parties or people who doesn't want a no deal Brexit involved in the government? Anyway if Corbyn tries anything they do not like they can always bring down the government. It is also term limited and to extend the article 50 and then have a GE. What is wrong with that for the remainers? They get a chance at a second referendum, they get a GE to get rid of Corbyn and they get all they have been shouting about.
No they would rather have Brexit with no deal than Corbyn as PM even for a day. They are hypocrites.
It's not about labour policy or Corbyn, can you not see that?It looks likely that if Corbyn stood aside then the Liberals and Tory rebels, who are also necessary for the proposal, might agree to it. As the interim government will supposedly not be there to implement Labour policy then there's no need for Corbyn to be it's leader as far as I can see. The pressure seems to be on Corbyn as much as the Liberals. Stand aside Corbyn, job's a good 'un.
What do you see as the reason behind it?It's not about labour policy or Corbyn, can you not see that?
An opportunity for mp's to put their nutsacks on the table and oppose no deal. And as for a ge, its a chance for remainers to vote in the lib dems and stop brexit, which we know they wont do but hey ho.What do you see as the reason behind it?
Well, I do not think they can afford not to u-turn, or at least Swinson can't. Their recent bounce in the polls will evaporate in no time if they are seen to be standing in the way of stopping no deal.If there's one party who can't afford to do further u-turns on election promises it's them.
Dunno... If it's to let Corbyn in power whilst labours policy is still... Fight election and if they win pursue red brexit with unicorns then I think that hits the vote t least as hardWell, I do not think they can afford not to u-turn, or at least Swinson can't. Their recent bounce in the polls will evaporate in no time if they are seen to be standing in the way of stopping no deal.
Exactly. He wants to re-negotiate.How is Jeremy offering the surest way to prevent a No Deal Brexit ?
- is he
a) going to sign the Withdrawal Agreement
or
b) Revoke A50
No, I thought not.
No matter what deal he gets he will then have a referendum and I can't see any circumstances they would campaign against a deal they had negotiated... They are a fundamentally vote against the conservative party but they have leave leadership trying to con a remain membershipExactly. He wants to re-negotiate.
What happens when he can't?
.
It's the perception, I think, more than the reality that matters more. I don't like Corbyn and I quite agree with Swinson that he probably won't gather enough support anyhow. But we cannot get over the fact he is still leader of the official opposition and should be next in line to form a government should the current one lose a vonc. And, currently, an alliance of opposition parties and Tory rebels looks like the most viable path to stopping a no deal Brexit. For a minority remainer party, it is inconsistent to both refuse to sit down with Corbyn and vehemently oppose no deal.Dunno... If it's to let Corbyn in power whilst labours policy is still... Fight election and if they win pursue red brexit with unicorns then I think that hits the vote t least as hard
Remain or rejoin I think will be the libs mantra
And let's be honest Corbyn probably won't even carry all his own parties votes to be pm let alone all the libs SNP independents etc
Suspect Boris will steel the thunder and simply call a ge vote to shake up the remoaner parliament before a confidence motion is possible anyway as none of the brexiteers want a second referendum before. Ge (just like Corbyn)
I don't think there is a commons majority for any particular type of brexit (hard, soft, none) but a majority against all three... Nor do I think there is a majority for a second referendum (before a ge) I suspect it's close if labour wouldn't whip against that.It's the perception, I think, more than the reality that matters more. I don't like Corbyn and I quite agree with Swinson that he probably won't gather enough support anyhow. But we cannot get over the fact he is still leader of the official opposition and should be next in line to form a government should the current one lose a vonc. And, currently, an alliance of opposition parties and Tory rebels looks like the most viable path to stopping a no deal Brexit. For a minority remainer party, it is inconsistent to both refuse to sit down with Corbyn and vehemently oppose no deal.
Besides, it is a vicious circle: if Lib Dems are seen to be working closely with Corbyn, his chances of gaining other MPs' support increase. So Swinson saying that he won't get the required numbers without even trying to talk to him smells very much like party politics as usual.
Nothing, there's plenty on here very opposed to Corbyn and this issue has clearly demonstrated those who just wish to moan regardless and those who take a fair view of each issue.Isn't Corbyn saying that it is a temporary unity government with all the parties or people who doesn't want a no deal Brexit involved in the government? Anyway if Corbyn tries anything they do not like they can always bring down the government. It is also term limited and to extend the article 50 and then have a GE. What is wrong with that for the remainers? They get a chance at a second referendum, they get a GE to get rid of Corbyn and they get all they have been shouting about.
No they would rather have Brexit with no deal than Corbyn as PM even for a day. They are hypocrites.
The leave vs remain vote is split down the middle regardless of party line (Labour or Conservative).No matter what deal he gets he will then have a referendum and I can't see any circumstances they would campaign against a deal they had negotiated... They are a fundamentally vote against the conservative party but they have leave leadership trying to con a remain membership
Ooooh Jeremy Corbyn indeed.
If Boris success in achieving a hard brexit I do wonder what labours next move will be
Libs will clearly be rejoin ... Might even rebrand as European democrats
Greens will be rejoin... SNP will be Scotland leaves UK and rejoins EU
Ireland will remain polarised around independence
Conservative will clearly not want to rejoin... What about labour?... More unicorns or split I think?...
What seems hard to grasp by the Labour Corbyn supporters is that there is no alternative negotiation - there will be no change to citizens rights, there will be no change to the settlement and there will be no change to the backstop other than limiting it to NI instead of the whole of the UK. And no you cannot have the same benefits outside the EU as in it - ergo Corbyn and Labour are not offering a promised alternative to the public- it's garbage. If Tories or the LibDems had said it would have been laughed at by Labour but because it's Corbyn and Labour who have said it it's regarded as sensible. Jesus wept.Nothing, there's plenty on here very opposed to Corbyn and this issue has clearly demonstrated those who just wish to moan regardless and those who take a fair view of each issue.
This whole argument of a Labour deal is a nonsense. Even if the EU entertain a renegotiation it's still only Labour providing a promised alternative to the public, that doesn't mean they back it over remain themselves. I'm not sure why that's hard to grasp for some.
He's offering a ge where your mates can vote lib dems in and cancel brexit, but you dont really want that right?What seems hard to grasp by the Labour Corbyn supporters is that there is no alternative negotiation - there will be no change to citizens rights, there will be no change to the settlement and there will be no change to the backstop other than limiting it to NI instead of the whole of the UK. And no you cannot have the same benefits outside the EU as in it - ergo Corbyn and Labour are not offering a promised alternative to the public- it's garbage. If Tories or the LibDems had said it would have been laughed at by Labour but because it's Corbyn and Labour who have said it it's regarded as sensible. Jesus wept.