Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Buster15]

With the multitude of people saying "just get it over and done with" and showing a severe lack of understanding about the intricacies of Brexit, I don't think that we should have had a referendum at all.

I had someone tell me today that the EU was standing in the way of democracy. I wish I had the energy to tell them that the "EU" isn't a single entity. It's made up of political scientists, scholars, financial and economic experts and so forth. Which seems like a damn bit more impressive than Dave the white van man.

Good point.
You see, the leave advocates love to label the EU as a single entity so as to portray them as the baddies. Them against us. Them stopping us from getting what we want etc etc.
As you say it displays a basic lack of understanding. And that is key.
Far too many people just don't want to think about the situation.
Instead. It is, let's just leave. Without any attempt to understand what that means.
It is typical gut reaction by people who can only deal with the emotions and not any of the facts.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

As a gesture and for France to save some money, Macron should arrange a convoy of buses to take all the immigrants that want to get to the UK on a ferry to Ireland pass through the border and get a ferry to mainland England and disembark them at the entrance of the HoC.

He doesn't need to do that, he can just move the border back to UK soil and make everyone in the Calais jungle our issue.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

He doesn't need to do that, he can just move the border back to UK soil and make everyone in the Calais jungle our issue.

But they can stop them in Dover whereas they couldn't stop them at the Irish border .The point I was trying to make is that there are things that that EU don't want to pass through an unchecked border after the Uk have left and probably neither does the UK.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

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[Maagge]

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The replies aren't exactly encouraging.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The replies aren't exactly encouraging.

But expected. Brexiters have not had an injection of intelligence within the past 3 years.

Strange that the Brexiters including Johnson and JRM do not welcome the backstop considering that they believe this magical technogical solution will be found very quickly and therefore according to them there would be no need for the backstop for very long. Or could it be that they know they're spouting rubbish and is only for the gullible Brexiters to believe.

 

[Maagge]

But expected. Brexiters have not had an injection of intelligence within the past 3 years.

Strange that the Brexiters including Johnson and JRM do not welcome the backstop considering that they believe this magical technogical solution will be found very quickly and therefore according to them there would be no need for the backstop for very long. Or could it be that they know they're spouting rubbish and is only for the gullible Brexiters to believe.

It's incredible that people can't grasp that point. And apparently it's also the EU forcing a hard border on RoI and NI because the UK will apparently just leave its border open. Beggars belief.

 

[Berbasbullet]

But expected. Brexiters have not had an injection of intelligence within the past 3 years.

Strange that the Brexiters including Johnson and JRM do not welcome the backstop considering that they believe this magical technogical solution will be found very quickly and therefore according to them there would be no need for the backstop for very long. Or could it be that they know they're spouting rubbish and is only for the gullible Brexiters to believe.

They will just say the EU won’t let them leave or something.

Also I am pretty sure that in order to trade under WTO rules you need to have hard borders? Or have I made that up?

 

[Smores]

But expected. Brexiters have not had an injection of intelligence within the past 3 years.

Strange that the Brexiters including Johnson and JRM do not welcome the backstop considering that they believe this magical technogical solution will be found very quickly and therefore according to them there would be no need for the backstop for very long. Or could it be that they know they're spouting rubbish and is only for the gullible Brexiters to believe.

There seems to be this illusion that we can only begin to look at the solution after we've actually left.

If it's so easy why haven't we funded analysis to build up a solid proposal. Let's go one step further if it's as easy as Boris says why aren't we already building it so we can say to the EU there's no need for a backstop.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It's incredible that people can't grasp that point. And apparently it's also the EU forcing a hard border on RoI and NI because the UK will apparently just leave its border open. Beggars belief.

They always refer to the EU as this faceless organisation yet seem to fail to realise that the EU are the 28 individual countries and that it is the other 27 countries that are deciding their policy including the RoI being one of those 27.
27 countries who have all agreed to the withdrawal agreement, only one country hasn't the UK.
Furthermore the UK parliament have also not managed to agree any alternative because not only have they voted down the WA, they have also voted down every single other proposition suggested by various factions in the HoC

 

[Paul the Wolf]

They will just say the EU won’t let them leave or something.

Also I am pretty sure that in order to trade under WTO rules you need to have hard borders? Or have I made that up?

The EU have always been blamed for all the problems of the UK. The Uk expect things to carry on as before except for the bits they don't like. There is a hard border where the rules, standards and laws are different.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm under the impression that in an ideal world for Boris, he holds an election , gets enough of a majority to not have to depend on the DUP and allow Northern Ireland to remain in the CU and SM and have the border in the Irish Sea.

 

[WensleyMU]

This is pure bull shit and one has to wonder how much propaganda one has to consume to believe and regurgitate it?


And it's been shown to be bull shit at least 20 times in this thread, so spare me the complaints.

It's far from bullshit. It's literally an EU requirement to have a hard border between members and non member states where no trade agreement is in place.

It doesn't matter what the UK does, or doesn't do. If we do leave with no deal, the EU will place a hard border in the Republic of Ireland.

 

[Abizzz]

It's far from bullshit. It's literally an EU requirement to have a hard border between members and non member states where no trade agreement is in place.

It doesn't matter what the UK does, or doesn't do. If we do leave with no deal, the EU will place a hard border in the Republic of Ireland.

No the act of leaving without a deal creates the border by neccessity. By your logic jumping out of a plane without a parachute doesn't kill you. Instead you'd be blaming the earth for killing you.

 

[WensleyMU]

It is spoken like a man who heard a tory say it on skynews but doesn't really understand the issue but likes the line. My dad does the same and i have to deconstruct it everytime, it's exhausting.

The idea of the Tories championing open borders now is hilarious

The Tories can do as they wish, it would be utterly irrelevant in the event of no deal.

Which part of this is to difficult to grasp, for anyone?

If no agreement is reached, after years of petty squabbling and posturing by both the UK and EU, then the EU requires a hard border where no agreement exists.

The EU only operates an open borders policy with member states or those with an appropriate agreement.

 

[Shinjch]

It's far from bullshit. It's literally an EU requirement to have a hard border between members and non member states where no trade agreement is in place.

It doesn't matter what the UK does, or doesn't do. If we do leave with no deal, the EU will place a hard border in the Republic of Ireland.

Is it not also a WTO requirement anyway?

 

[WensleyMU]

No the act of leaving without a deal creates the border by neccessity. By your logic jumping out of a plane without a parachute doesn't kill you. Instead you'd be blaming the earth for killing you.

At which point did I not state that "in the result of no deal" and point out that the EU would then require a hard border.

All evidence currently points to all sides wanting a hard border. Each side will bemoan the idea of course but when push comes to shove, none are willing to do anything about it beyond their current position.

This very thread started as an example of the clear hypocrisy displayed regarding Brexit. People's actions are very different from their words.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Is it not also a WTO requirement anyway?

Whatever the UK grants to one WTO member they will have to grant to all WTO members, open borders to all countries , taking back control, no checks on anything, smugglers and mafia paradise, immigrants galore -welcome to the UK.

 

[Abizzz]

At which point did I not state that "in the result of no deal" and point out that the EU would then require a hard border.
All evidence currently points to all sides wanting a hard border. Each side will bemoan the idea of course but when push comes to shove, none are willing to do anything about it beyond their current position.

This very thread started as an example of the clear hypocrisy displayed regarding Brexit. People's actions are very different from their words.

The 27 have all agreed to the WA. It was negotiated with the UK Government. The UK government couldn't get backing for it's own agreement.

That is why we are where we are.

And those who failed to back their own government are now trying to use that failure as a negotiating point towards a 3rd party. It's utterly delusional and only makes sense if one accepts that no deal is wanted by the current UK government.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I'm fairly sure under WTO rules a hard border isn't necessarily required but if we don't have one and want to keep an open border with Ireland (because GFA) we will either have to open all borders and not check goods from any other country or break the "most favoured nation" rule and suffer the consequences and retaliation

 

[Drifter]

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Talks have got of to a great start.

 

[WensleyMU]

Is it not also a WTO requirement anyway?

It probably is but I haven't looked. I am still hopeful our politicians and the EU can grow up and hash out a deal. It is in everyone's interests to do so.

 

[Shinjch]

Whatever the UK grants to one WTO member they will have to grant to all WTO members, open borders to all countries , taking back control, no checks on anything, smugglers and mafia paradise, immigrants galore -welcome to the UK.

But what if we only go by paragraph 5b of article 24 and pretend that nothing else matters?

 

[nickm]

All evidence currently points to all sides wanting a hard border. Each side will bemoan the idea of course but when push comes to shove, none are willing to do anything about it beyond their current position.

But that's simply not true. The UK govt and the EU agreed a deal, the backstop, to prevent a hard border. It's the UK that apparently can't stomach it anymore.

 

[WensleyMU]

The 27 have all agreed to the WA. It was negotiated with the UK Government. The UK government couldn't get backing for it's own agreement.

That is why we are where we are.

So you are saying that all sides didn't agree to something?

Which means, either no deal, or negotiation until something can be agreed?

 

[Stanley Road]

I'm under the impression that in an ideal world for Boris, he holds an election , gets enough of a majority to not have to depend on the DUP and allow Northern Ireland to remain in the CU and SM and have the border in the Irish Sea.

That's what I think

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But what if we only go by paragraph 5b of article 24 and pretend that nothing else matters?

That would mean that the two countries were actually in the process of proceeding towards a deal, which by the nature of No deal clearly isn't the case , furthermore the UK would have n odeals in place or close to being in place when they leave other than the tiny continuation deals Fox got to ensure they still applied during the transition period but under no deal there would be no transitional period either.

 

[decorativeed]

With the multitude of people saying "just get it over and done with" and showing a severe lack of understanding about the intricacies of Brexit, I don't think that we should have had a referendum at all.

I had someone tell me today that the EU was standing in the way of democracy. I wish I had the energy to tell them that the "EU" isn't a single entity. It's made up of political scientists, scholars, financial and economic experts and so forth. Which seems like a damn bit more impressive than Dave the white van man.

What!! The general public might not be as well informed, well educated and capable of complex reasoning and rational thought after all!? Well I never.

Stuff like this is ample evidence of people not being able to see the bigger picture: https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/nov/08/millennium.uk1
I would scrap votes on Walkers crisp flavours too.

 

[Abizzz]

So you are saying that all sides didn't agree to something?

Which means, either no deal, or negotiation until something can be agreed?

Both sides agreed. One side couldn't pull through on the agreement. That side now came back and wants a better deal as a reward for not honaring the previous deal.

You do not see the problem with that?

 

[WensleyMU]

But that's simply not true. The UK govt and the EU agreed a deal, the backstop, to prevent a hard border. It's the UK that apparently can't stomach it anymore.

The UK government agreed something that wasn't ratified by the UK parliament. Therefore it's void.

It may come as a shock to many, but that's how the UK has functioned for centuries.

 

[Maagge]

The UK government agreed something that wasn't ratified by the UK parliament. Therefore it's void.

It may come as a shock to many, but that's how the UK has functioned for centuries.

Sure, but the UK also voted "no" to about eight other alternatives and "yes" to precisely none.

 

[nickm]

Both sides agreed. One side couldn't pull through on the agreement. That side now came back and wants a deal better for itself as a reward for not honaring the previous deal.

You do not see the problem with that?

... and id attempting to blame the other side for its failure to honour the deal too.

 

[WensleyMU]

Both sides agreed. One side couldn't pull through on the agreement. That side now came back and wants a better deal as a reward for not honaring the previous deal.

You do not see the problem with that?

The deal didn't get through UK parliament...

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The deal didn't get through UK parliament...

Nothing has done, everything has been rejected , which deal do you think will get through the UK parliament? Then it has to be agreed by the other 27.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Is it not also a WTO requirement anyway?

Pretty certain this is true.

 

[Abizzz]

The deal didn't get through UK parliament...

Yes because the UK parliament voted in a government and then failed to support it. How is that anyone else's problem?

 

[WensleyMU]

Sure, but the UK also voted "no" to about eight other alternatives and "yes" to precisely none.

This happens with a democracy like the UK. It's frustrating but commonplace.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

This happens with a democracy like the UK. It's frustrating but commonplace.

Strangely in 27 other democracies they all agreed.

 

[WensleyMU]

Yes because the UK parliament voted in a government and then failed to support it. How is that anyone else's problem?

I refer you back to my point a few pages back about the ineffective nature of hung parliaments and coalition governments.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I refer you back to my point a few pages back about the ineffective nature of hung parliaments and coalition governments.

May had a majority government before the 2017 election and she and her government negotiated the agreement, furthermore it's not just because there are different parties involved , it's because there are different factions within each party.

Haven't had your opinion on having open borders with all the other WTO members.