"They were asking for two entirely reasonable and legitimate things: for decisions that affect their country to be taken in their country, and for their government to have greater control over who comes in and out of the country. "
The discussion has been done to death but David Cameron explains really well in his book why we didn't have control over who came in and out of the country.
I mean, we don't really. I am and was an ardent remainer, have an affinity for the EU and Europe in general and am very sad today. But we don't. We have more control than mainland Europe does but...we still don't.
Did you read the rest of it or did you stop there?
Freedom of movement is a real thing but what does it even matter if immigration numbers won't drop, which they won't. You'll just get more non-EU immigrants instead of EU immigrants, which I'm sure is what those who voted leave wanted, right?
If you ask British people "would you like a free movement of people zone between Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the USA and the UK" you get high 70% approval. The type of immigration does definitely matter to people.
You realize that since the referendum numbers from the EU have dropped and predominantly been replaced by people from India, Nigeria, and other developing countries, yes, not the ones you list above?
I don't find it particularly to be a counter argument. I think that the conflation of societal issues in the UK with EU membership is precisely at the heart of the issue many remainers have with the Leave vote. I think people have long understood that Brexit votes wanted decisions made in their own country and to control immigration. The sovereignty and xenophobia angle would surely be the stock position of the caricatured remainers discussed within this article. When people say that they didn't know what they were voting for this is not what is meant and it seems a deliberately shallow reading to suggest otherwise. The extent to which we could control our immigration and make our own laws was generally not understood (few people on either side fully understand this) and the expectation that leaving the EU will address the concerns of people wishing for change is generally the position that remainers have attacked.
I think (with all due respect) that the problem with this view is that it creates a caricature out of millions of people and shoe-horns them into one viewpoint.
I don't think that is necessarily why remain lost but I do find it a generally accurate representation. I say that as one of those sneery remainers who've spent the last 3 years dumbfounded at what people in this country have done and starting off by having a general air of superiority over these buffoons. This is an attitude very much consistent within my circles and very much on this board too.
In name only for the time being
Positive predictions not allowed. What about the sky falling in? Me, I predicted that there would be snowflakes...
Ironically the Brexiters are getting what they claimed the EU was, abiding by EU rules, still paying into the pot and having no say whatsoever for the coming eleven months (at least) , and even more funny they're celebrating it.
More to do with those countries being English speaking and historically close you our own culture and values.
Do they? Or will they be able to keep doing what they've always done and blame the EU for their own failings? I mean it's not like the UK's media or opposition are actually going to hold them to account. How long before "the EU are to blame for the way they've treated us post-Brexit" becomes the new narrative?
Perhaps for 3 to5 years or so... But then when the USA feck us on a deal... And china lines up to give us a raping after the penny will finally drop I think...
That article is basically a more eloquent way of saying "it was because of the immigrants". Some choice excerpts of it were particularly egregious, and somewhat ironic in an article railing against supposed lies.
Right away, this is not, strictly speaking, true: it wasn't a majority of the "national community" but a majority of those who turned up to vote that day. Not quite the same thing. But it's a minor quibble compared to some things to follow.
See, this is the kind of thing that gets you labelled stupid. Because, frankly, a whole lot of decisions that affect a country will be taken outside the country. That's just how the world works now. The point of the EU is to make sure that those nations that MUST co-exist will not screw over each other with their decisions. That Germany cannot simply introduce a tariff that destroys, I don't know, Slovenia's export of tiny plastic cocks.
The UK is not governed by the EU. That is simply a lie. Nothing more, nothing less. So that "idea" he's talking about here is simply fiction.
Right, right, I'm sure. Does anyone really actually believe this? Unless that outlook really was just about "let's have fewer immigrants".
But this, this right here! This one is simply disgusting. There's really no other word for it. It subtly implies that all the above is the EU's fault and the only way to solve these problems, to end this "dreary existence" is to leave the EU. This is the crux of it: the UK's problems are someone else's fault! (This part also happens to contradict one of the first sentences of the article: "And this decision, contrary to the liberal view of citizens as autonomous individuals who are mainly driven by self-interest, was never rooted in transactional considerations about money." - apparently, it was after all.)
Again, they never lost it. Will the UK exit every single international agreement that puts any obligations on its participants? Or what does national independence mean then?
I'm sure voting for the Conservative Party en masse will make that happen.
Again, a clever bit of fibbing. One in three sounds good - but it also means that two-thirds of black and ethnic minority voters backed Remain - apparently, the vast majority did not actually believe that minority rights are under threat if Britain remains in the EU. And then there's this bit from HIS OWN LINK: "White British were the most pro-Leave, followed by those of Indian background who were almost twice as likely to support Leave as other minority groups. There were much higher levels of support for Remain amongst Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Black Caribbean and Black African groups – on average a quarter being more pro-Leave than Remain."
You just know that the link will point to a 2014 study (that is to say, it's pre-referendum) that begins with this:
Well, no fecking wonder: they are dreaming about sending home those dirty Poles, Romanians, Hungarians and so on. Some of them are probably dreaming about sending home the Pakistanis and such but of course those people will be disappointed, since that is not an EU issue.
It may be impolitic to say, but same.
Twas ever thus I am afraid.
Problem is, if we want to join again it won't be on the terms we've enjoyed for many years.
As an overall point, the likes of Matt Goodwin and Eric Kaufman make no bones about the fact that it's about globalisation and immigration, both Brexit and the national populism movement across the world. The key difference is that they perceive the specific issue to be about the pace of demographic change which causes social and cultural insecurity among the majority, rather than the base accusations of racism and so on that generally come from the left. Specific to the UK, this was compounded by the failure of pro-globalisation governments through Blair and Cameron to pay heed to the warnings of growing discontentment and do anything about it. The actual referendum was a bit of political happenstance with Cameron making a terrible judgement call and misreading the mood entirely.
I really cannot see that happening.
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Yup... I can see (whatever is left of) the uk joining the single market (paying as much for access as we Do now only without a say ) in 10-15 years
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I think it will go the other way. In five years time rejoin will only poll 20-25% and be a minority not much talked about position outside the lib Dems.
fecking Bravo. Bravo.
There was some random woman in the street who was happy we left because now we can be an island again. So that's nice.
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