Rio was one of the quickest CBs around. It was one of his primary assets which made him a world class CB.
Bridging the Gap
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Right now, the gap between the top teams and us in terms of tactical and technical quality is big. Our build up play, use of ball when in possession, play patterns, off the ball movements and timings of run is far too rudimentary to bother a top possession team who have been well versed in these aspects. Coupled with Jose and his recent acquisitions like Lukaku, Sanchez, decline of Mata, overuse of Young etc. have made the problem look bigger than it actually is.
We attack our board about transfers but the fact is that we fans are the same. Look at our player performance thread. "He was solid", "he runs a lot", "he had some good moves", etc....; Is that standard for being the best? I don't think so.
And look what Real, Barca and Juve fans think about their players. They accept only world class performances. Yes, our attidute towards players is nice and romantic but football changed last 10 years. If you want to be best of the best then board and fans must be ruthless. Man Utd as a club( board and fans) will never be like that. We are happy that our no9 is our kid. We are happy that lots of our players are English. We will not try to buy Icardi this summer but at the same time Juve will buy Bonucci even they have Rugani. They will buy Ronaldo even they have Bernardeschi and Dybala. City will sell Sancho and Diaz and buy Mahrez. Barca had best youth school in the world but they don't care anymore. They will buy, buy and buy new players.
And look what Real, Barca and Juve fans think about their players. They accept only world class performances. Yes, our attidute towards players is nice and romantic but football changed last 10 years. If you want to be best of the best then board and fans must be ruthless. Man Utd as a club( board and fans) will never be like that. We are happy that our no9 is our kid. We are happy that lots of our players are English. We will not try to buy Icardi this summer but at the same time Juve will buy Bonucci even they have Rugani. They will buy Ronaldo even they have Bernardeschi and Dybala. City will sell Sancho and Diaz and buy Mahrez. Barca had best youth school in the world but they don't care anymore. They will buy, buy and buy new players.
100% this. The never ending defending of Lingard because of his great movement, Mata because he puts in a shift, Young because he is from Fergie era etc etc is just so cringeworthy. We need a proper striker. We used to have 4 great strikers once upon a time and now people claim that if we buy a new one then Rashford's development will stall.
Defend mediocrity and this is what you get against wc sides. Genuinely only 2 wc players in the squad and one of them is a goalkeeper. We need heavy investment, in the right players. Not some shite players like Fred. Can't believe we wasted 50m on him. We need to go for players who are in demand, a hot property.
It’s about Guardiola’s strategy and tactics at City, which is a little bit different to Barcelona in the fonal third. At Barcelona, having some of the worlds best players in attack, he allowed more freedom for creativity. At City, there are more automated attacking moves, and one main feature is to release players towards the line and having pre-trained moves for the attackers so they know when and from where they are going to start their runs. This takes away quite a bit of freedom to improvise, but it makes it easier for the attackers/crosser to know each others plans and more difficult for the defenders to cover the right space at the right time. It’s more usual in handball than in football yet, and it takes a load of practice over time, and discipline, to be good at.
From a neutral perspective, where you are today, to bridge the gap I think you need.....
- 2 top fullbacks, right and left (Wan-Bisakka and Chilwell)
- 1 top central defender to partner Lindelof (Alderweireld)
- A more mobile holding midfielder than Matic (Declan Rice is the long-term answer, but will probably take 1-2 seasons to get to the level you need him to. I'd go for Rabiot for now and buy Rice too for the future)
- A top box to box midfielder to compete with Herrera (Milinkovic-Savic or Barella)
- A top right sided forward (Has to be Jadon Sancho)
- To sell Sanchez (ASAP)
It's a matter of technical skill.
Every single one of PSG's or City's players are technically good.
Look at the way Marquinhos played out of position even though he's a CB.
I wouldn't trust half of our starting XI to try and retain possession in tight spaces.
Every single one of PSG's or City's players are technically good.
Look at the way Marquinhos played out of position even though he's a CB.
I wouldn't trust half of our starting XI to try and retain possession in tight spaces.
Marquinhos was a stand out performer for me. He has a very good passing range for a CB and also very nice positional discipline.
It's all down to training to be honest.
You are right. Their technical abilities were better than us, I mean look at their one touch/long/short passing which 9 out of 10 times found their target. But, it also has to do with them being drilled in terms of tactical plays and patterns. When to press, when to back off, when to make the run, pass into the space or to the players feet, when to pass, when to keep the ball etc. They had the tactical instructions down to a tee.
And these things will come to the players only with the help of a tactical genius of a manager who knows the intricate patterns of modern attacking possession based football. Look at the plays of City, PSG, Barcelona. These teams exhibit these patterns in abundance and also have players who are able to execute them. Just letting the players wing it like Jose did in terms of attacking or Ole still to show his tactical acumen in depth may result in victories versus weak opponents, but against a better tactical team, they will tend to fail.
What gap?
What we lack is a stable, settled squad that is evolving with one clear, consistent vision in mind.
The last five years we haven’t had this, each time the new man has come in it’s been massive overhaul and tactical changes.
This is what the top clubs have, what we used to have. A clear consistent vision for how to play with players who have grown into and evolved with the team so they all know their role within it.
The last five years we haven’t had this, each time the new man has come in it’s been massive overhaul and tactical changes.
This is what the top clubs have, what we used to have. A clear consistent vision for how to play with players who have grown into and evolved with the team so they all know their role within it.
So just under half a billion then? Excellent.
- Fullbacks: Meunier/Lala and Tierney. £20m and £30m.
- CB: Alderweireld £25m*.
- Two Midfielders: Pellegrini and Rabiot(if you want to save on transferfees). £22m* and £0m(Expect a large sign on fee)
- RW: Suso £33m*.
* releaseclause active this summer.
Would personally not go for Rabiot and rather splash the cash on Aouar or Zaniolo, and only sign a RB this summer. Sign Tierney next summer with Sancho.
Difficult to bridge any gap when we have a board who will probably under invest if we get top four, thats the concern.
In today’s market.....
Chilwell and Wan Bisakka would probably cost £40m each.
Alderweireld now has a £25m release clause.
Rice would probably cost £40m-£50m.
Rabiot would be free.
Sancho would probably be £60m.
So £215m, minus whatever you get back for Sanchez and any other players you sell.
Four managers in five and a half seasons, a helter-skelter transfer record, ridiculous fees and wages paid for incompetent and past it players, and a continuous deterioration of the quality of play screams for the appointment of a quality, experienced Director of Football. One should have been named before Moyes' successor was named so surely one should be appointed before the next permanent manager is named. It's how big football clubs are managed these days.
Paying players on mega money with nothing to show. Now whoever don't have problem with that, shouldn't moaning about the club having a hard time to ship them out. It just shows lack of understanding.
Seems Spurs have the right model, by giving them just decent wages but big reward when they reach their goals.
Seems Spurs have the right model, by giving them just decent wages but big reward when they reach their goals.
You haven't under-invested so far, so what makes you think it will start now?
We need to put faith on young players and be smarter with signings. Sign more young players and spread the money across every position. There is no point spending £100m on single players; Sancho, Koulibaly or not. Sign them before they become superstars.
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Spot on. Trying to sign players that are already the finished article hasn't worked. They only go one way.
Class of '92 aside, your most successful signings in recent history have been talented young players, who blossom into excellent players at the club. Ferdinand, Rooney, Carrick, Ronaldo, De Gea, all of them were signed as younger players and became mainstays of successful sides for years.
As a rule, even the younger players signed 'post SAF' have been the most successful signings longer term (Shaw, Herrera, Martial etc.).
They may cost a lot or be overpriced for their age, but the return you get on them in terms of years of qaulity is massive.
Our best players were the most expensive at the time. De Gea was the most expensive teenage gk. Martial was the most expensive teenager. Pogba was the most expensive player.
Our transfer failures haven't come from spending big on young players. It's come from buying over the hill stars, and buying middle of the pack players.
Excuse me when I read rubbish. How often have Ole changed his squad? It has been the same MF, you know who are the favourite front 3. LB RB are also very predictable. I guess the only mystery guest is who partner with Lindelof. Certain rotation was necessary when you can't expect players playing 50 games a season, but everyone should know who are our best 11 (OK, best 10) when all available.
Don’t think he was levelling that at Ole more the general state of the club’s policy over the last 5 years. We’ve had 3 managers with different visions and none ultimately right for this club.
Now we’re on our 4th and while he’s done really well with this set of players only he and the clubs hierarchy know what that vision is long term. All that provided that he’s appointed in the first place !
If a new guy is appointed we’ll be on our 5th with yet another ‘vision and strategy.’ I can see why that frustrates some
Do we really need fullbacks though? Shaw has been solid this season and Dalot could easily keep improving. I think at most a more experienced rb might be handy to help ease dalot in, maybe Matt Doherty?!
For me the two most important positions would be RW and CB and I agree Sancho has to be the priority.
I don't think it's a coincidence that current 2 best sides in the division have the best fullback options. They are crucial for opening up space for other players.Do we really need fullbacks though? Shaw has been solid this season and Dalot could easily keep improving. I think at most a more experienced rb might be handy to help ease dalot in, maybe Matt Doherty?!
For me the two most important positions would be RW and CB and I agree Sancho has to be the priority.
Shaw has done well recently, but you might need better than 'solid' to get to where you need to be.
Right-back is definitely more pressing. Dalot looks really good, but might not be ready. As for Doherty? He's a great wing-back with 3 CBs behind him, but when we played a back 4 he wasn't great.
My feeling is that there are only ever enough top quality players for there to be 5-6 genuinely world class teams. We didn't get this generation's top players, so it's a write off for a while. There's no magic, you need the best players.
'Bridging the gap' requires us to win the battle for the next generation of quality players. It will take at least 3 years of excellent recruitment decisions, and probably at least one or two of our youth team turning out to be stars.
'Bridging the gap' requires us to win the battle for the next generation of quality players. It will take at least 3 years of excellent recruitment decisions, and probably at least one or two of our youth team turning out to be stars.
Tbh i think we are still behind a lot of other European teams because we still do not understand a way to play. Thank God for Ole we are trying to make things happen. We still cannot keep a proper shape in defense and midfield. This is my prospect XI to win the premier league next season and i think this can totally happen,
Keepers: David De Gea, Romero & Grant are perfect to stay.
Centre halves: Bailly, Lindelof, Jones & Smalling can stay, bring in Koulibaly and play him alongside either Bailly or Lindelof.
Wingbacks: Valencia & Young have to say Thank You to the club and be on their way. I know their committed and all that but i think it is high they think the club must find a rhythm with some young full backs. Dalot, Shaw and bring in Win-Bissaka.
Mid-field: Matic needs replacement although he can start against lower table teams and provide stability but since he cannot run or follow his mark, we definitely need to find a good DM to partner Herrera. It certainly is not Fred or Perriera. I'm thinking Nzonzi for a couple of years.
Forwards: Rashford, Martial, Lingard on a good run and i'd keep them going but we still need a good Right side wide player who can stay by the by-line and attack the box and put in some delicious crosses. I wish we can have Dembele but who would want to leave Barcelona except for fame crazy idiots :P
I think we can get a good player if we took proper advice. We need to find that Sane, Mahrez, Salah type player.
We need steady the ship and go for all the glory next season!
Keepers: David De Gea, Romero & Grant are perfect to stay.
Centre halves: Bailly, Lindelof, Jones & Smalling can stay, bring in Koulibaly and play him alongside either Bailly or Lindelof.
Wingbacks: Valencia & Young have to say Thank You to the club and be on their way. I know their committed and all that but i think it is high they think the club must find a rhythm with some young full backs. Dalot, Shaw and bring in Win-Bissaka.
Mid-field: Matic needs replacement although he can start against lower table teams and provide stability but since he cannot run or follow his mark, we definitely need to find a good DM to partner Herrera. It certainly is not Fred or Perriera. I'm thinking Nzonzi for a couple of years.
Forwards: Rashford, Martial, Lingard on a good run and i'd keep them going but we still need a good Right side wide player who can stay by the by-line and attack the box and put in some delicious crosses. I wish we can have Dembele but who would want to leave Barcelona except for fame crazy idiots :P
I think we can get a good player if we took proper advice. We need to find that Sane, Mahrez, Salah type player.
We need steady the ship and go for all the glory next season!
Even if we get the players you mention. I don't think a good enough "team" (as in collective play) can be formed to be serious challenge for the league or the champions league next season. There is a level of cohesion you can only gain by playing together, and that is assuming they adapt to the style we choose to play and to the physical requirements of the premier league.
As per the reply below yours, I wasn’t talking about the time Ole was I charge, I was talking the big picture of the post-Fergie era.
Moyes came in and threw out all the staff with Fellaini and Mata coming in, he also tried to change the style somewhat.
LVG came in and bought a lot of mediocre players and changed the style completely from Moyes.
José came in and immediately set about tearing down what LVG had done (rightly or wrongly) and again changed the style of play.
The big teams, despite changes of manager usually have a settle team ethos and squad. We simply haven’t had anything resembling this post-Fergie.
Our recruitment has been really crap the past few years. That’s the main reason why we’re behind and in my opinion why we desperately need to restructure and modernise the club hierarchy. Every time we get a new manager those same set of mediocre players get another season to prove themselves.
Let’s not hypothetically doom ourselves to a 40 year old Ashley Young and 35 year old Phil Jones getting constant fecking shots at being good. I’m sick of this vicious circle. Guardiola purged half dozen of City’s equivalents of their Youngs and Joneses the moment he got there.
Let’s not hypothetically doom ourselves to a 40 year old Ashley Young and 35 year old Phil Jones getting constant fecking shots at being good. I’m sick of this vicious circle. Guardiola purged half dozen of City’s equivalents of their Youngs and Joneses the moment he got there.
There is a gap in style/quality of play and quality of players.
For the gap in style/quality of play, that's upto the manager we hire. That's where the board has to decide if Ole has it in him or should we go for Poch. I am unsure myself.
As for the quality of players, I agree with a lot of the posts, but we can't get a RB/LB/CB/CM/RW all in one summer. Thats just not possible. The good news is we only spent about 70m last summer. I would imagine we have money left over from that. The bad news is that 70m players have not been able to be integrated into first team.
So this summer we have to prioritize for the big money buys. And for me that is on RW (Sancho) and CB (Koulibaly or DeLigt) which probably means 250m pounds. That probably is that. We cannot buy another RB after spending 20m on a young RB a year ago. We have to let that young RB grow into the first team. And we won't have money left over for LB, so we have to get Shaw to improve his crossing or change play a bit for him to overlap more and cut back the ball more. And without money we have to be creative in getting a CM (like maybe a loan for a player like Tielemans with option to buy in a year) or work on integrating Fred a bit better or sell him to make space and use the money to get someone else in.
For the gap in style/quality of play, that's upto the manager we hire. That's where the board has to decide if Ole has it in him or should we go for Poch. I am unsure myself.
As for the quality of players, I agree with a lot of the posts, but we can't get a RB/LB/CB/CM/RW all in one summer. Thats just not possible. The good news is we only spent about 70m last summer. I would imagine we have money left over from that. The bad news is that 70m players have not been able to be integrated into first team.
So this summer we have to prioritize for the big money buys. And for me that is on RW (Sancho) and CB (Koulibaly or DeLigt) which probably means 250m pounds. That probably is that. We cannot buy another RB after spending 20m on a young RB a year ago. We have to let that young RB grow into the first team. And we won't have money left over for LB, so we have to get Shaw to improve his crossing or change play a bit for him to overlap more and cut back the ball more. And without money we have to be creative in getting a CM (like maybe a loan for a player like Tielemans with option to buy in a year) or work on integrating Fred a bit better or sell him to make space and use the money to get someone else in.
We STILL don't have any leaders in the squad IMO.
Pogba but you need 1 or 2 additional ones
The way the club had been run since SAFs retirement has been nothing short of farcical. Poor recruitment on and off the field, panic buying, overpaying in fees and wages, letting good players go, refusing to strengthen key areas, keeping mediocre players around because they’re “solid” and the list goes on.
This is not how any organisation at the top of their field operate. We’re lucky we can buy our way out of this or we’d just be slipping further and further away from the top
This is not how any organisation at the top of their field operate. We’re lucky we can buy our way out of this or we’d just be slipping further and further away from the top
1. Sort out pur right flank. Both at full back and upfront
2. Add a top class ball playing center half
3. Add a second Pogba like player to midfield. Preferably one better at defending
4. Replace Mata with a pacier version of him.
2. Add a top class ball playing center half
3. Add a second Pogba like player to midfield. Preferably one better at defending
4. Replace Mata with a pacier version of him.
Its because our right flank is largely dead. Almost none of our combination play comes down that side. Against top side or clued up sides,defensively, it makes us easy and predictable opponent. Too reliant on individual brilliance to crack them open
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With Mata (& Sanchez) coming in PSG can practically press at any side they want. No offence to these 2 players, but they offer neither threat nor defensive capability.
Hate to break it to you mate but nobody does that again,I mean,which top team does it? even Barcelona now go for established players.
you go for big name players to win big for you.
In the last six year, we've wasted so much money and time on the wrong recruitment policy, buying players that don't have the mentality or the physical attributes that a top European Elite side need.The recent performance against PSG highlighted this more than ever.
Jose philosophy was a quick fix, 28-31 year old player that tactically would do just what he demanded but at what cost to our footballing souls, the United fans didn't like it and those players were let go from rival sides for a reason, either because they were in decline or about to decline. The solution is simple, the club needs to go back to what we did for decades and even in his very short tenure Ole has recognised this, the team needs more mobility, more hunger and more pride in wearing the shirt!
No more maybe buys, no more waiting for players to settle in, we need elite players who will hit the ground running but before we can source new players we need to have a serious purge of the squad and jettison the following;
Marcus Rojo, Mateo Darmian, Alexis Sanchez, Romelu Lukaku, Antonio Valencia, Fred, Juan Mata. Now some of these players have been solid servants to the club but most of these no longer have the desire, mentality, legs or attributes to play for a top 3 PL team and we may be able to get something like £155M for that group plus more importantly make sizeable reductions to the wage bill to afford the truly elite players the fans and the club deserves.
We must look at two options only in each positional category and not waste our time chasing players we can not obtain?
Centre Back - Simple Decision R Varane or K Koulibally - Cost 90M & 250k per week
Right Back - Wan Bissaka or T Meunier - Cost 40M & 150k per week
Left Back - Ryan Sessegnon or A Gremerio - Cost 50M & 125k per week
BTB Midfielder - Tanguy Ndombele or D Rice - Cost 60M & 125k per week
Creative Midfielder - C Erikssen or M Veratti - Cost 75M & 300k per week
Right Winger - J Sancho or S Bergwinn - Cost 70M & 150k per week
Centre Forward - M Icardi or T Werner - Cost 100M & 300k per week
Ok so this may sound like a fantasy football dream, with a total outlay of £395M and only £155M coming back from players sales but the reality is only this type of activity whether in 1 or 2 transfer windows will have the club challenging for major honours again, we would be significantly upgrading our squad, whilst at the same time investing in the best of British talent mixed with top elite world class proven players and more importantly we would reduce the age of the squad giving us a chance to develop the team into winners over the next 5 seasons.
No more maybe buys, no more he needs a couple of seasons to settle in, we as fans have been more than patient and we will be again, providing we see a structure and a strategy which shows the club are developing homegrown youth and buying those very special talents that are born to grace the 'Theatre of Dreams'
Jose philosophy was a quick fix, 28-31 year old player that tactically would do just what he demanded but at what cost to our footballing souls, the United fans didn't like it and those players were let go from rival sides for a reason, either because they were in decline or about to decline. The solution is simple, the club needs to go back to what we did for decades and even in his very short tenure Ole has recognised this, the team needs more mobility, more hunger and more pride in wearing the shirt!
No more maybe buys, no more waiting for players to settle in, we need elite players who will hit the ground running but before we can source new players we need to have a serious purge of the squad and jettison the following;
Marcus Rojo, Mateo Darmian, Alexis Sanchez, Romelu Lukaku, Antonio Valencia, Fred, Juan Mata. Now some of these players have been solid servants to the club but most of these no longer have the desire, mentality, legs or attributes to play for a top 3 PL team and we may be able to get something like £155M for that group plus more importantly make sizeable reductions to the wage bill to afford the truly elite players the fans and the club deserves.
We must look at two options only in each positional category and not waste our time chasing players we can not obtain?
Centre Back - Simple Decision R Varane or K Koulibally - Cost 90M & 250k per week
Right Back - Wan Bissaka or T Meunier - Cost 40M & 150k per week
Left Back - Ryan Sessegnon or A Gremerio - Cost 50M & 125k per week
BTB Midfielder - Tanguy Ndombele or D Rice - Cost 60M & 125k per week
Creative Midfielder - C Erikssen or M Veratti - Cost 75M & 300k per week
Right Winger - J Sancho or S Bergwinn - Cost 70M & 150k per week
Centre Forward - M Icardi or T Werner - Cost 100M & 300k per week
Ok so this may sound like a fantasy football dream, with a total outlay of £395M and only £155M coming back from players sales but the reality is only this type of activity whether in 1 or 2 transfer windows will have the club challenging for major honours again, we would be significantly upgrading our squad, whilst at the same time investing in the best of British talent mixed with top elite world class proven players and more importantly we would reduce the age of the squad giving us a chance to develop the team into winners over the next 5 seasons.
No more maybe buys, no more he needs a couple of seasons to settle in, we as fans have been more than patient and we will be again, providing we see a structure and a strategy which shows the club are developing homegrown youth and buying those very special talents that are born to grace the 'Theatre of Dreams'