For a start se should stop signing players over 27/28 years old like Sanchez, Matic, Bastian. Build a team so we don't have to replace players every two years or so. I'm confident that with Ole we will go more youth and long term because he understands the club unlike Moyes, LvG, Jose.
Bridging the Gap
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Well the club and many of our fans believe extending the contracts of mediocre players is good for us. What do you expect to happen when we persist with players who aren't good enough? World domination?
We lack ambition to be the best.
We lack ambition to be the best.
I certainly hope that Ole is our Guardiola/Zidane. It's early to tell. It's a tall order though. Zidane is highly intelligent and charismatic, he's a born winner. And Guardiola is a managerial great. Think Zidane might be the best choice now. He wouldn't shy away from competing with Guardiola and Klopp and has the charisma to inspire players. Ole is a United legend and charismatic in his own way but he ain't Zidane.
We need better players, and young hungry ones at that. I also felt we lacked leadership last night when we were losing our heads over the referee. We're not far off but our bench has to improve drastically.
Players make teams. At the moment we have the tools to counter attack so we utlize Pogba in the number 10 free from defensive shackles and pacy strikers. Its the best thing we can do with this squad and the bare minimum even Jose failed to achieve. Ole figured it out in a month. Its possible we can play in different way if we upgrade some other positions like fullbacks for eg . See how player like Mendy influences City .
How can you exert control when your leader fullback gives the ball away like nothing? Our player choices will be most interesting this summer and will be hopefully the job of DOF together with Woodward and the coach.
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I thought I was the only one who noticed it too and also Marquinhos man marking job on Pogba worsened the situation
We made three fundamental mistakes - PSG turned into a weakened squad in a pub league (all over social media), we over relied on several key players, and we let them use our tactics without employing a counter solution. Two thirds psychological and one third gamesmanship - clever by Tuchel.
Ole was under pressure from 30 minutes when Tuchel shifted their game and we dropped away. Ole’s response, mostly due to injury was two more forwards - but was that the answer? Throwing on 2 forwards and hoping to bully them into conceding clearly failed. Maybe bring on another midfield player and push Pogba up front to ‘10’ right in their faces alongside Rashford, might have been a better move. Instead, the pressure on Pogba mounted, increased once Sanchez came on and the team as a whole ran into brick walls. The key to that game lay in the midfield not more power up front. It’s a real pity that a 4th midfielder has not emerged this season, because we really needed some additional quality to support Ander who was fighting a losing battle and Matic who looked very tired at half time.
Our biggest weakness lies in subtle tactical alternatives. We hit Spurs with our talent but they then hammered us and we had the luck. I don’t think PSG hammered us, they blunted our moves but we failed to respond. The management team will learn a lot from this game and hopefully change their tactical thinking.
Ole was under pressure from 30 minutes when Tuchel shifted their game and we dropped away. Ole’s response, mostly due to injury was two more forwards - but was that the answer? Throwing on 2 forwards and hoping to bully them into conceding clearly failed. Maybe bring on another midfield player and push Pogba up front to ‘10’ right in their faces alongside Rashford, might have been a better move. Instead, the pressure on Pogba mounted, increased once Sanchez came on and the team as a whole ran into brick walls. The key to that game lay in the midfield not more power up front. It’s a real pity that a 4th midfielder has not emerged this season, because we really needed some additional quality to support Ander who was fighting a losing battle and Matic who looked very tired at half time.
Our biggest weakness lies in subtle tactical alternatives. We hit Spurs with our talent but they then hammered us and we had the luck. I don’t think PSG hammered us, they blunted our moves but we failed to respond. The management team will learn a lot from this game and hopefully change their tactical thinking.
Managers make teams. They improve players, select the new ones to buy, train them and pick the system.
Exactly. Plan friggin b. There is none. Mctominay and Perrara and Fred. Its a joke. They man marked Pogba and pushed up on the front three and we had nothing else. This team is screaming for Eriksen.
Clear out of the average and not signing them to new contracts, serious investment across the squad on quality talent be it ones with potential or players on the brink of stardom, and better luck! Can’t do much about the last one, but the rest have to be addressed if we’re ever going to get back to the top.
Well said, the way they handled Pogba throughout the game and Martial the first half was very clever and well executed. I can't recall seeing Martial with the space he usually needs. The subs were bad, as you said, pushing Pogba further up would have been better, should have slotted someone next to Ander and Matic, Sanchez and Mata in particular were ineffective. Also conceding stupid goals didn't help, silly goals to concede at this stage of the competition (Matic failing to stay with his man and our defense allowing Mbappe to cover a lot of ground, beat both defenders and slot home) We should have done better with our substitutions...
A world class CB, RB, RW should bolster our hopes if they integrate well in the team. I also don’t think Shaw is ever going to become a top top full back either but he’s got enough quality to be in a side challenging for European success.
It's interesting, for sure. It's a combination of tactics/coaching & player quality which outdid us last night.
There's a reason I've always been a fan of someone like Verratti, as an example - he's one of those midfielders who can control the tempo of the match almost single handedly. That's just a start of what we need.
We're currently such a mismatch of a squad - evidently a squad which was built by 3 managers - all with extremely different ideas of team building/tactics.
So my guess is that we need a combination of 2-3 things: a manager with a clear plan and vision - suited to those of the clubs aspirations, a DoF who understands the clubs vision and ethos (and who can sign and build a squad befitting of this vision/quality) and at least 3-4 signings which can make a difference to our starting XI (IMO we need a RB, CB, DM and a RW).
I think a lot of it is simply down to us not playing a team as good as PSG in the CL for about five years, now. We were ill-equipped to deal with how organized they are and how good they were on the ball. A shock to the system compared to playing the majority of PL teams, really. I don't think our squad is as far off the pace as others seem to, we mainly need more experience in Europe against teams like that (and better players in certain areas, for sure).
Last night for me just showed that our squad players are nowhere near good enough, first half very scrappy, ref didn't help as it was so stop start but it was pretty even not many chances and we could have made more of a few situations.
Lingard/Martial going off just killed us and the game, like we were playing with 9 men, our first 11 will give most a game but it kind of highlighted that Herrera/Matic very good Premier League midfielders but the difference in class to Veratti was for all to see.
Mata/Sanchez need to be sold, just not good enough, Ashley Young even Luke Shaw, as horrible as it is to say as I do like him, he provides nothing going forward, think everyone knew we are maybe 3/4 top class players away from being a very good side, last night showed that again, big summer ahead.
Give it a go in Paris but Pogba being sent off was the final nail in the coffin. Hopefully Lingard/Martial are not to bad and back for this run we have, killer if both missing for Monday night.
Lingard/Martial going off just killed us and the game, like we were playing with 9 men, our first 11 will give most a game but it kind of highlighted that Herrera/Matic very good Premier League midfielders but the difference in class to Veratti was for all to see.
Mata/Sanchez need to be sold, just not good enough, Ashley Young even Luke Shaw, as horrible as it is to say as I do like him, he provides nothing going forward, think everyone knew we are maybe 3/4 top class players away from being a very good side, last night showed that again, big summer ahead.
Give it a go in Paris but Pogba being sent off was the final nail in the coffin. Hopefully Lingard/Martial are not to bad and back for this run we have, killer if both missing for Monday night.
I agree with this but we lack the quality in depth to have a player to play in this role. Fred, Pereira and Mctominay would have got steam rolled in this game.
At the top it's a game of details, we are objectively far but it doesn't mean that we aren't good. It's a bit like Roma during De Rossi's and Totti's primes, they were good but not good enough compared to top teams.
I agree, my main point though was that I don't think it's as simple as "they have a much better squad than us", and a lot of it is down to our poor coaching in the last few years and inexperience in Europe. On paper I wouldn't really say their first XI was much better than ours last night but they just showed their experience and how well drilled they are in comparison.
We're already starting to phase out players not suited to the system and anyways selecting playrs should be the job of the DOF if appointed.
My point was we can't conclude that the manager couldnt help us reach another level of control just because we demonstrated counter attack mostly. We've also demonstrated spells of dominant possession, counter pressing, slick interchanges etc. The counter happens to have been the most common one because we have the most talented players in those positions.
I agree we haven't been composed on the ball for a long time, which is disheartening and infuriating in equal measure, but as you say if we can get the fast aggressive stuff right more often we can work on being comfortable in possession as a group over a longer period. I think working on that while neglecting our counter attack and our pressing will take us back to LVG days where we tried to bore the opposition to death rather than attack them.
As for personnel the number one area to strengthen is our right side. No right FB of first team standard and no right attacker at the football club have been long-standing embarrassments that need to be remedied as an absolute priority.
1. Keep faith in OGS. In 11 games he's given us more hope than the previous 3 managers combined.
2. Stop renewing contracts for average players.
3. Give OGS the resources like City backed Guardiola.
2. Stop renewing contracts for average players.
3. Give OGS the resources like City backed Guardiola.
Managers make teams. They improve players, select the new ones to buy, train them and pick the system.
Like many have said, we need to stop this aimless crossing. Many times last night I thought our fullbacks, particularly Young, should have tried to get in the box rather than crossing and hoping to find a red shirt. Proper RW could be a solution to this. Also a CM who can keep possession and pick a pass under pressure. Thought Verratti was excellent.
I didn't see anything from us last night that I don't see often when Spurs and City play anyone half decent in the UCL
Look at how Spurs performed against the likes of Inter and PSV in their group, look how City performed against Lyon and those Spurs and City sides have a lot more experience in the UCL than a lot of our players do (a damning statement and maybe one to discuss at another time) plus they're actually better sides than us as well
Seems to be a common trait amongst the English sides in the UCL where they can be totally outclassed by top European opposition
The difference with Liverpool (as oppose to the rest of the English sides) is they play an English PL game in the UCL which Europe's elite aren't used to, the pace, the pressing, all for 90 minutes not just for the first 20. All that being said that's not to say Liverpool dont have their own flaws
UCL football is important for us but like I said last night lets crack our own domestic league before we expect to really challenge in Europe
Look at how Spurs performed against the likes of Inter and PSV in their group, look how City performed against Lyon and those Spurs and City sides have a lot more experience in the UCL than a lot of our players do (a damning statement and maybe one to discuss at another time) plus they're actually better sides than us as well
Seems to be a common trait amongst the English sides in the UCL where they can be totally outclassed by top European opposition
The difference with Liverpool (as oppose to the rest of the English sides) is they play an English PL game in the UCL which Europe's elite aren't used to, the pace, the pressing, all for 90 minutes not just for the first 20. All that being said that's not to say Liverpool dont have their own flaws
UCL football is important for us but like I said last night lets crack our own domestic league before we expect to really challenge in Europe
Think if Ole gets the job this summer's transfer window will show what direction we are going. I hope in a different one to previously. The rumours yesterday about Bale have me worried to be honest. Buying a big name at big money with no looking as to how they will fit in the team, if they actually want to play for us, Di Maria and Sanchez are prime examples of that.
I am hoping there is now some focus on where they want this team to be going as an actual football team, not a money making machine.
I believe our style of play right now suits us away from home where the opposition leaves gaps in behind for us to counter. We simply lack the guile and creativity to open up good defences which are organised, especially at old Trafford. We shouldn't be crossing the ball like we did against burnley without a target man inside the box. Creativity against good defences has been a problem for us for a very long time. If pogba can't create who can from central areas because our full backs are extremely unproductive.
Our right hand side really needs to be sorted. We need partnerships there between the full back and right winger like we have on the left so the opposition can worry more. It was a disappointing performance yesterday night as many of us were optimistic but we simply not at the level of psg right now and need a clear plan of recruitment in the summer.
Our right hand side really needs to be sorted. We need partnerships there between the full back and right winger like we have on the left so the opposition can worry more. It was a disappointing performance yesterday night as many of us were optimistic but we simply not at the level of psg right now and need a clear plan of recruitment in the summer.
PSG knew all they had to do was nullify Pogba. Compare the Juventus diamond to us, you can't dedicate one man to marking Pogba if you have Pirlo and Vidal in there as they can both pass and shoot.
I like Matic and I love Herrera (who was good last night), but how many chances fell to Herrera on the edge of the box? Not great chances but chances a better footballer might make something from. Sounds too simplistic, but teams like PSG have better players than us.
Gap is too huge. To compete with best of the best we must decide what is our goal. Compete for title in PL or try to be best in Europe.
For PL where you have 38 games you can have mixed squad or to say better, you can have only solid solutions on some positions. But to beat Barca, Real or Juve you must have best players all around.
For me, PSG game was a big shock because i realized that we will not win CL for years. We lack players on 5,6 position and we will not buy all those players.
I really don't understand how Barca, Real and Juve are doing it. How the hell they have always fantastic players in all positions?
For PL where you have 38 games you can have mixed squad or to say better, you can have only solid solutions on some positions. But to beat Barca, Real or Juve you must have best players all around.
For me, PSG game was a big shock because i realized that we will not win CL for years. We lack players on 5,6 position and we will not buy all those players.
I really don't understand how Barca, Real and Juve are doing it. How the hell they have always fantastic players in all positions?
We been lacking a consistent dribbler for god knows how long.
We need someone who can beat a man consistently. Martial is great but his dribbling skills at times can be lacking. The same for Rashford. Sanchez can’t do that anymore.
We need players who can run with the ball and more important put a good delivery in. We are embarrassing when it comes to delivery in the box. I watch City and Liverpool players, 8/10 times the delivery is perfect. Whilst us it’s like a lottery.
It’s old school, but crosses in the box has been very successful for us for two decades under Fergie. Real Madrid won 3 champions league in a row with that tactic. Pep has adapted to that too. The amount of low dangerous crosses City play in the box is amazing. Last night, PSG second goal we could have tried that all night and we probably would have crossed it behind the player or for a throw in.
We need someone who can beat a man consistently. Martial is great but his dribbling skills at times can be lacking. The same for Rashford. Sanchez can’t do that anymore.
We need players who can run with the ball and more important put a good delivery in. We are embarrassing when it comes to delivery in the box. I watch City and Liverpool players, 8/10 times the delivery is perfect. Whilst us it’s like a lottery.
It’s old school, but crosses in the box has been very successful for us for two decades under Fergie. Real Madrid won 3 champions league in a row with that tactic. Pep has adapted to that too. The amount of low dangerous crosses City play in the box is amazing. Last night, PSG second goal we could have tried that all night and we probably would have crossed it behind the player or for a throw in.
We lost the possession battle against Reading,and Fulham. Now there is an excuse for Reading, but not Fulham in comparison to the start of Ole's tenure.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Eriksen play more of a Pogba role for Spurs in that he's a midfielder, but clearly the most advanced midfielder of the 3 (not including Alli the AMC)? If that's the case isn't Eriksen more of a replacement for Pogba, rather than someone who would compliment him?
Sadly it's down to investment and ambition. Don't want to make this a glazer bashing thread but to compare us with the PSG owner is night and day. They go out and buy Neymar, Mbappe, to compliment the likes of Veratti and Cavani. We bring in a shot Alexis and then Fred, Dalot and Lee Grant.
I understand we can't match an oil club but at least spend something closer to our potential.
We need a massive summer. A summer bigger than 2016 & 2017 where we bring in a Pogba type transfer and more. Basically start acting like the biggest & richest club around. Show our ambition is to be winning Champions League's and PL's. Another summer window like 2018 would be an absolute disaster.
I understand we can't match an oil club but at least spend something closer to our potential.
We need a massive summer. A summer bigger than 2016 & 2017 where we bring in a Pogba type transfer and more. Basically start acting like the biggest & richest club around. Show our ambition is to be winning Champions League's and PL's. Another summer window like 2018 would be an absolute disaster.
That shouldn't be a shock. We've got a lot of good players, but we also have a lot of mediocre to poor ones, particularly when you look past the first eleven. It wasn't a shock that with the right motivation we could pull ourselves up a level to start beating the weaker teams in the league, but we're still a level below the top teams in the CL. What we should expect going forward is to qualify for the CL every year and at least be in with a shot.
Identity, consolidation and improvement. It's year upon year of investing in top quality talent. Replacing ageing or unsettled talent with equal or better. Once the initial investment has been made, it's much easier to maintain squad quality. Our problem started toward the end of SAF's reign where we weren't investing in the best talent, and continued throughout Moyes, LvG and Mourinho's tenures where they all had different ideas about what they wanted the club's identity to be, and bought players accordingly. We're left with either a bunch of old players who were never amazing (but have served the club well) or those who simply aren't good enough or don't fit the team.
Ole might not be the most qualified of managers for the job, but he gets the club and its identity. As long as the structure of the club supports him (e.g. by bringing in a DoF who can identify and go get talent for the team) then I think we can bridge the gap. But over the years that gap has become huge and I think it's more than one summer's work to turn it around. My fear is that if he has a few poor results the board will get twitchy and want to go for someone who has more experience but that potentially leads to yet another change in identity.
This club have a low football intelligence. What do you expect from a team that cannot set up the players and sold them the likes of Nani, Kagawa, Di Maria, Blind and underappreciate a player like Mata? Then later bought Lukaku which I knew yall one day will moan nonstop about. Seems like some naive people behind the club do not know football but think they do with their ball hoofing spirit. So, I hope this time Ole the new man, can stand up and adjust this ruthlessly.
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Fred was not cheap. Dalot is 19 years old and was bought for the future. Grant was bought as backup and cost us pennies. As to Alexis, he is costing us around £20m per year so even if we didn't pay anything in terms of a transfer fee, he's still a significant investment. We spent £90m on Pogba. The Glazers are investing and have invested in the squad; the issue is that the choices of player have been somewhat dubious, and our wage structure is completely broken so we end up haemorrhaging money not only on the top talent but on the also rans. If I have a criticism of the board's player investment strategy it would be that.
Besides, buying a player like Neymar or Mbappe would be like putting a sticking plaster over a gaping, infected wound. It might make it look slightly more pleasant but it's still rotting away. Before investing in galacticos we need to invest in developing a solid spine for the team and establishing an identity on the field. Once that's sorted, we can embellish.
Agree with what you say. What I mean is, if we want to be the dominant force in Europe, we need to be doing even more. Look at PSG and their owner. It's almost fanatical obsession to be the best. That's what we're up against. Them, City, Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Juve. They all strive to be the absolute best.
We need to improve on so many levels. Investment needs to be bigger and better. We need to be smarter. It has been the case from the time Fergie was here.
You reap what you sow and last night was an example of that.
They also forgot to buy a midfield so they had a CB at DM last night. And Chopo Moting and a bunch of kids were on their bench. PSG are not a club to look to when looking at squad building.
Hmm, fair point. Although I think FFP has caught up with them a bit. But the general point was the ambition. They seem to be doing everything to fulfill their potential.
I don't think we have done that for years now.
We have three areas to really focus on.
- Right flank. Teams are happy to congest the centre and left sides and leave our right fairly open, knowing we wont do much there and it leaves plenty of space for them to counter attack down it. It's been our biggest problem for years.
- Midfield - we are competent but we need an upgrade on one of Herrera or Matic to take us to the next level. We can't set a tempo unless we are pressing high up the pitch.
- A world class player. The difference between the teams was Mbappe. Even with him largely covered by our defenders, they were so preoccupied with his movement it created space for the other PSG players to exploit (Lukaku take note). PSG did the same thing marking our own world class player out of the game but instead of Di Maria exploiting the space we had Mata and Sanchez labouring about. We need someone else to cause problems when Pogba isn't.
- Right flank. Teams are happy to congest the centre and left sides and leave our right fairly open, knowing we wont do much there and it leaves plenty of space for them to counter attack down it. It's been our biggest problem for years.
- Midfield - we are competent but we need an upgrade on one of Herrera or Matic to take us to the next level. We can't set a tempo unless we are pressing high up the pitch.
- A world class player. The difference between the teams was Mbappe. Even with him largely covered by our defenders, they were so preoccupied with his movement it created space for the other PSG players to exploit (Lukaku take note). PSG did the same thing marking our own world class player out of the game but instead of Di Maria exploiting the space we had Mata and Sanchez labouring about. We need someone else to cause problems when Pogba isn't.
I agree with all this. We can talk about that 400mil that we spent but i keep saying one thing; all those transfers were must buys. Players for positions which were empty. To be best club you must buy players who are upgrade for what you have. We will not buy full back because Shaw is good. We will not buy right winger because Lingard is solid. We will not buy top defensive midfielder because Matic or Herrera are good. We are just not ruthless and we just don't have maximum ambition. We will offer new contract to every player just because he was part of the family. Psg, Juve, Real will not. And that is why we are club who play CL finals only when we have one good generation.
Juve, Barca, Real are always there because they upgrade their squads all the time. They will buy short term solution if that player will help them that year. Those clubs don't have phrases long term or short term future in their dictionary. Only future for them is next season.