I agree about the lack of communication. I have often argued that, on many occasions, our issue isn't the lack of numbers to either defend or to move the ball up the pitch. It's brain-dead decisions, "cheating" when it comes to defensive effort and players being passive and waiting for one another to make a decision so that they can then react to it. Maybe, Evans or Onana should have yelled at them. But they freaking see that the centre-halves and AWB are locked in 3v2 in the box. They know it's their job to track the runner. And you know what the worst part is? It happens every week
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 45
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 11
- Yellow cards
- 11
If ever there was a player to highlight how we need to assess players by actually watching them, rather than forming an opinion on stats, then Bruno is the man.
Sick of him this season. His attitude is frustrating, his moaning is annoying and his captaincy is laughable.
The ‘spray and pray’ tag is so apt for him. I’d love for us to have a couple of months out of the side to see how we get on. I bet we have more control in midfield. The half chances he supposedly creates wouldn’t be missed. Control the game better and maybe we create better chances.
Sick of him this season. His attitude is frustrating, his moaning is annoying and his captaincy is laughable.
The ‘spray and pray’ tag is so apt for him. I’d love for us to have a couple of months out of the side to see how we get on. I bet we have more control in midfield. The half chances he supposedly creates wouldn’t be missed. Control the game better and maybe we create better chances.
I used to do that. Not any more. Remember, you ignored them for a reason.
That is Bruno, he always does that no matter where you play him. I also suspect the idea was to lure Spurs in with their high line then spring a counter with a quick through ball. Not pretty but it got us 2 goals in the end. Both Bruno and Rashford who are our 2 best attackers are much better when there is space rather than when they have to keep possession and unlock defences, which for me is part of the problem of getting this team to control games as someone like Bruno always wants to try risky passes like against Bournemouth which ends up putting the ball in jeopardy.
Presumably under instruction from Ten Hag to exploit Spurs' high line.
I get that - but literally everytime? Even when it did not make sense? I rate Bruno and a player of his calibre should really do better.
I hate that we never change formation anymore and it's due to him. He can only play one position and this season he has really dropped off. Time to say bye bye
I’ll do what I want?
In his defence he ran his socks of yesterday, pressing when Rashford should have been pressing and chasing back on Rashfords side.. watch the game back. He certainly tried unlike a couple of others.
He will always, always work for the team. He's constantly on the move. So his effort in pretty much every game is top notch. But I would move him on. He's too erratic with the ball. He gives it away far too cheaply. You can't really go anywhere in this sport if you have careless players and he's one, alongside Rashford, AWB, Casemiro, Dalot.
Vocally I don't think he's a great leader either. He's a constant whinger ha. Now, I can understand his reasons, to some extent, because playing with these guys would drive most of us mad but when he's equally inconsistent on the ball then he himself has no where to hide either.
Vocally I don't think he's a great leader either. He's a constant whinger ha. Now, I can understand his reasons, to some extent, because playing with these guys would drive most of us mad but when he's equally inconsistent on the ball then he himself has no where to hide either.
Much of the hard work people mention wouldn't be needed if didn't try the Hollywood ball every time.
I'd love to see Mount get 10 games in his spot, just to see how it goes. He could be completely toothless or he could bring some balance to us.
I'd love to see Mount get 10 games in his spot, just to see how it goes. He could be completely toothless or he could bring some balance to us.
Stats are from Fbref. The point overall is that there is a lack of balance in terms of stats that are presented and then those stats and presumptions are used by posters like yourself and @58posts to create a narrative and to misrepresent the other side of the argumentment.
So to try and make this as clear as I can so that it can’t be misinterpreted….
We know that Bruno creates a lot of ‘chances’ statistically. Our point is that when watching games minute by minute Bruno is a frustrating player and often plays ‘poorly’ in the minds of some because we are watching a player who seems to constantly give the ball away and make baffling, to some, decisions.
Odegaard seems to be the player often referred to for comparison and in looking at the stats, what stands out to me to back up my opinion (therefore most likely what creates the opinion I hold) is the volume of medium/long passes against the success rate. In addition the amount of times the medium to long pass are chosen in comparison to Odegaard, for me, backs up a reasonable view that Bruno takes far too many risks playing far too many low percentage passes, and when compared to Odegaard the risk doesn’t seem to be worth the reward as Odegaard has similar if not better stats for FAR (200 giveaways) less risk.
Hope that makes sense.
One last point, I haven’t kept spamming In here? This is the only time these stats have been posted in this thread?
Yep, I'm with you here.
I don't think Bruno is a terrible player by any stretch, but your post perfectly encapsulates my issue with him as a player, and by extension my issue with the idea that he has to play because he is our best chance creator.
I think it was all perfectly exemplified by yesterday's game too. We all watched him attempt 3-4 stupid high risk passes yesterday when we were quite obviously struggling for a sustained period of control. If one of those passes come off then of course it goes down as a chance created or potentially an assist for Bruno, but the actual result was possession handed back over to Spurs and more defensive work for the team to get through.
As our most advanced midfielder, Bruno is the centrepiece of our attack. But with him so freely creating turnovers and ensuring the team stays under pressure through low percentage actions, he also creates an environment where only a high volume player like himself can shine.
Ok let's try to bust some myths or at the very least reach a common understanding in here. It's tiresome to discuss the same things over and over again with only minor changes in the phrases. I will give my quick summary of every point of contention that I have seen in here. The first 4 points are relatively quick and straight-forward and I think that both fans and critics will agree on at least half the points. The last point is the most complicated, so I devote more time on that.
1. On getting dispossessed
This one is the easiest to bust. Ødegaard gets dispossessed twice as often and he is considered elite at keeping possession. Bruno does not get dispossessed particularly often. Not even once per game. It is not a weakness of his. Even some of his loudest critics in here have admitted it. This should be the end of this particular discussion.
2. On dribbling
No one has ever claimed that Bruno is good at this. This is a clear weakness as it's more or less non-existent. However, plenty of elite players over the years have done just fine with one (or multiple) weaknesses. Bruno would hardly be the first. And personally, dribbling does not make my top 3 or maybe even top 5 over useful skills for a central, attacking midfielder.
3. On finishing
This has been a problem since the beginning of the 2021-22 season, but for some reason it's not brought up nearly as often as the other points! If this had been the main criticism of Bruno then I would have largely agreed. The only saving grace here is that his finishing used to be good, so it's clearly in his locker. But make no mistake: he must improve his finishing.
4. On whining
What's the difference between showing anger/disappointment towards team mates and referees whilst raising your arm and doing the exact same thing but keeping your arm down? Because to me, those are the exact same thing from a practical point of view. And yet if the arm stays down you are a passionate leader instead... This is such a dumb point that it pains to even bring it up, but here we are!
---
5. On pass accuracy
This is by far the most discussed point (directly or indirectly). And this is by far the most subjective point, because it essentially boils down to a few questions:
- Do you think that Bruno is incapable of recycling possession or leaving the pitch with a high pass completion rate?
The answer to this is obviously "no" if you are willing to dig a little. He has plenty of games with a high pass completion rate and he pretty much always has it for Portugal. But we are just scratching the surface here. "Pass completion" is a pretty useless statistic on its own. So...
- What types of passes do Bruno typically fail at?
Typically crosses, corners and overly ambitious passes. This is essentially why Bruno is considered a high risk player. In other words, Bruno does not misplace a bunch of simple passes or fail to think fast enough under pressure, as one would often think when one hears "low pass completion". His overall pass accuracy is low-ish because he takes far more chances rather than play the ball backwards or sideways, which he could choose to do. So...
- WHY does he take these risks so often if he doesn't have to?
I don't think that anyone has the complete answer to this. Personally I think that he is instructed to be ambitious whenever the team struggles, which happens to be often. He has, wrongly or correctly, been tasked with carrying the creative burden by himself. This is of course not good. But at the same time I can understand it when you look at the other players in the team.
Now of course I can't claim that Bruno isn't hardwired to be overly ambitious with his passing. In fact, I suspect that he has that type of instinct. And while I do believe that he is instructed to play those passes, I also think that he goes a little too far sometimes. But I also cannot ignore what a Bruno game looks like when he plays in a functioning team with a functioning attack. I don't think he would have been considered wasteful at all in such a setup. I also cannot ignore the obvious good that comes from his risk-taking. I take 3 key passes and 78% pass accuracy over 2 key passes and 85% pass accuracy any day of the week. But that is just my personal preference.
I hope that my summary and opinion points are at least somewhat fair, even though my bias is clear.
1. On getting dispossessed
This one is the easiest to bust. Ødegaard gets dispossessed twice as often and he is considered elite at keeping possession. Bruno does not get dispossessed particularly often. Not even once per game. It is not a weakness of his. Even some of his loudest critics in here have admitted it. This should be the end of this particular discussion.
2. On dribbling
No one has ever claimed that Bruno is good at this. This is a clear weakness as it's more or less non-existent. However, plenty of elite players over the years have done just fine with one (or multiple) weaknesses. Bruno would hardly be the first. And personally, dribbling does not make my top 3 or maybe even top 5 over useful skills for a central, attacking midfielder.
3. On finishing
This has been a problem since the beginning of the 2021-22 season, but for some reason it's not brought up nearly as often as the other points! If this had been the main criticism of Bruno then I would have largely agreed. The only saving grace here is that his finishing used to be good, so it's clearly in his locker. But make no mistake: he must improve his finishing.
4. On whining
What's the difference between showing anger/disappointment towards team mates and referees whilst raising your arm and doing the exact same thing but keeping your arm down? Because to me, those are the exact same thing from a practical point of view. And yet if the arm stays down you are a passionate leader instead... This is such a dumb point that it pains to even bring it up, but here we are!
---
5. On pass accuracy
This is by far the most discussed point (directly or indirectly). And this is by far the most subjective point, because it essentially boils down to a few questions:
- Do you think that Bruno is incapable of recycling possession or leaving the pitch with a high pass completion rate?
The answer to this is obviously "no" if you are willing to dig a little. He has plenty of games with a high pass completion rate and he pretty much always has it for Portugal. But we are just scratching the surface here. "Pass completion" is a pretty useless statistic on its own. So...
- What types of passes do Bruno typically fail at?
Typically crosses, corners and overly ambitious passes. This is essentially why Bruno is considered a high risk player. In other words, Bruno does not misplace a bunch of simple passes or fail to think fast enough under pressure, as one would often think when one hears "low pass completion". His overall pass accuracy is low-ish because he takes far more chances rather than play the ball backwards or sideways, which he could choose to do. So...
- WHY does he take these risks so often if he doesn't have to?
I don't think that anyone has the complete answer to this. Personally I think that he is instructed to be ambitious whenever the team struggles, which happens to be often. He has, wrongly or correctly, been tasked with carrying the creative burden by himself. This is of course not good. But at the same time I can understand it when you look at the other players in the team.
Now of course I can't claim that Bruno isn't hardwired to be overly ambitious with his passing. In fact, I suspect that he has that type of instinct. And while I do believe that he is instructed to play those passes, I also think that he goes a little too far sometimes. But I also cannot ignore what a Bruno game looks like when he plays in a functioning team with a functioning attack. I don't think he would have been considered wasteful at all in such a setup. I also cannot ignore the obvious good that comes from his risk-taking. I take 3 key passes and 78% pass accuracy over 2 key passes and 85% pass accuracy any day of the week. But that is just my personal preference.
I hope that my summary and opinion points are at least somewhat fair, even though my bias is clear.
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Ok let's try to bust some myths or at the very least reach a common understanding in here. It's tiresome to discuss the same things over and over again with only minor changes in the phrases. I will give my quick summary of every point of contention that I have seen in here. The first 4 points are relatively quick and straight-forward and I think that both fans and critics will agree on at least half the points. The last point is the most complicated, so I devote more time on that.
1. On getting dispossessed
This one is the easiest to bust. Ødegaard gets dispossessed twice as often and he is considered elite at keeping possession. Bruno does not get dispossessed particularly often. Not even once per game. It is not a weakness of his. Even some of his loudest critics in here have admitted it. This should be the end of this particular discussion.
Dispossessed stats should be thrown out the window just for a player like Bruno Fernandes. Think of how Bruno plays; do you ever see him trying to shield the ball, dribble, hold on to it for more than 0.0003 seconds. So he doesn't get dispossessed but he loses possession just by spamming passes and crosses.
2. On dribbling
No one has ever claimed that Bruno is good at this. This is a clear weakness as it's more or less non-existent. However, plenty of elite players over the years have done just fine with one (or multiple) weaknesses. Bruno would hardly be the first. And personally, dribbling does not make my top 3 or maybe even top 5 over useful skills for a central, attacking midfielder.
He is absolutely awful agreed but disagree it's not an important skill especially in the modern game where everything is about breaking lines and zones.
3. On finishing
This has been a problem since the beginning of the 2021-22 season, but for some reason it's not brought up nearly as often as the other points! If this had been the main criticism of Bruno then I would have largely agreed. The only saving grace here is that his finishing used to be good, so it's clearly in his locker. But make no mistake: he must improve his finishing.
It's getting to the point where maybe that early few months could be just a purple patch. Dalot is a better striker of the ball, he should be off set pieces for good. He's skied so many easy just outside the box perfectly set up balls that most 10s at least make the keeper work.
4. On whining
What's the difference between showing anger/disappointment towards team mates and referees whilst raising your arm and doing the exact same thing but keeping your arm down? Because to me, those are the exact same thing from a practical point of view. And yet if the arm stays down you are a passionate leader instead... This is such a dumb point that it pains to even bring it up, but here we are!
Nobody gives a crap where his arm is, it could be on his crotch for all I care. And the point is not that he shows anger and dissapointment it's when he shows it and whether it is a positive for the team. Garnacho and Rashford have started the same constant arm waving when a pass isn't played to their liking. Positive reinforcement is going to work better most of the time in the heat of competition. Giving a teammate who misplaced a ball a thumbs up or encouragement is obviously better for morale than constant head shaking, body turning, diving spasms he does constantly. The cherry on top being he's the captain.
---
5. On pass accuracy
This is by far the most discussed point (directly or indirectly). And this is by far the most subjective point, because it essentially boils down to a few questions:
- Do you think that Bruno is incapable of recycling possession or leaving the pitch with a high pass completion rate?
The answer to this is obviously "no" if you are willing to dig a little. He has plenty of games with a high pass completion rate and he pretty much always has it for Portugal. But we are just scratching the surface here. "Pass completion" is a pretty useless statistic on its own. So...
Not incapable but definitely not his natural game. He plays a lot more restricted for portugal because they haven't given him the keys to the operation the way we foolishly have. They make him plays as part of the team rather than the focus of all our attacking creativity.
- What types of passes do Bruno typically fail at?
Typically crosses, corners and overly ambitious passes. This is essentially why Bruno is considered a high risk player. In other words, Bruno does not misplace a bunch of simple passes or fail to think fast enough under pressure, as one would often think when one hears "low pass completion". His overall pass accuracy is low-ish because he takes far more chances rather than play the ball backwards or sideways, which he could choose to do. So...
He's terrible at set pieces and crosses and should stop spamming them. It's braindead low efficiency football played by bad teams. I won't get into whether he fails to think fast enough under pressure. I think he plays on instinct a lot and sometimes he see's things faster than others but any time he's under physical pressure, he panics and becomes half the player. Give him time and two wingers speeding forward and he's one of the best.
- WHY does he take these risks so often if he doesn't have to?
I don't think that anyone has the complete answer to this. Personally I think that he is instructed to be ambitious whenever the team struggles, which happens to be often. He has, wrongly or correctly, been tasked with carrying the creative burden by himself. This is of course not good. But at the same time I can understand it when you look at the other players in the team.
Now of course I can't claim that Bruno isn't hardwired to be overly ambitious with his passing. In fact, I suspect that he has that type of instinct. And while I do believe that he is instructed to play those passes, I also think that he goes a little too far sometimes. But I also cannot ignore what a Bruno game looks like when he plays in a functioning team with a functioning attack. I don't think he would have been considered wasteful at all in such a setup.
I hope that my summary and opinion points are at least somewhat fair, even though my bias is clear.
He takes these risks because that's the player he is naturally and we've somehow fecked ourselves into a situation where two managers in a row now have decided freestyle football with Bruno at the heart of it is our style of play. I agree with you in a functioning team with a function structure and great players around him, Bruno would look way better but who wouldn't?
1. On getting dispossessed
This one is the easiest to bust. Ødegaard gets dispossessed twice as often and he is considered elite at keeping possession. Bruno does not get dispossessed particularly often. Not even once per game. It is not a weakness of his. Even some of his loudest critics in here have admitted it. This should be the end of this particular discussion.
Dispossessed stats should be thrown out the window just for a player like Bruno Fernandes. Think of how Bruno plays; do you ever see him trying to shield the ball, dribble, hold on to it for more than 0.0003 seconds. So he doesn't get dispossessed but he loses possession just by spamming passes and crosses.
2. On dribbling
No one has ever claimed that Bruno is good at this. This is a clear weakness as it's more or less non-existent. However, plenty of elite players over the years have done just fine with one (or multiple) weaknesses. Bruno would hardly be the first. And personally, dribbling does not make my top 3 or maybe even top 5 over useful skills for a central, attacking midfielder.
He is absolutely awful agreed but disagree it's not an important skill especially in the modern game where everything is about breaking lines and zones.
3. On finishing
This has been a problem since the beginning of the 2021-22 season, but for some reason it's not brought up nearly as often as the other points! If this had been the main criticism of Bruno then I would have largely agreed. The only saving grace here is that his finishing used to be good, so it's clearly in his locker. But make no mistake: he must improve his finishing.
It's getting to the point where maybe that early few months could be just a purple patch. Dalot is a better striker of the ball, he should be off set pieces for good. He's skied so many easy just outside the box perfectly set up balls that most 10s at least make the keeper work.
4. On whining
What's the difference between showing anger/disappointment towards team mates and referees whilst raising your arm and doing the exact same thing but keeping your arm down? Because to me, those are the exact same thing from a practical point of view. And yet if the arm stays down you are a passionate leader instead... This is such a dumb point that it pains to even bring it up, but here we are!
Nobody gives a crap where his arm is, it could be on his crotch for all I care. And the point is not that he shows anger and dissapointment it's when he shows it and whether it is a positive for the team. Garnacho and Rashford have started the same constant arm waving when a pass isn't played to their liking. Positive reinforcement is going to work better most of the time in the heat of competition. Giving a teammate who misplaced a ball a thumbs up or encouragement is obviously better for morale than constant head shaking, body turning, diving spasms he does constantly. The cherry on top being he's the captain.
---
5. On pass accuracy
This is by far the most discussed point (directly or indirectly). And this is by far the most subjective point, because it essentially boils down to a few questions:
- Do you think that Bruno is incapable of recycling possession or leaving the pitch with a high pass completion rate?
The answer to this is obviously "no" if you are willing to dig a little. He has plenty of games with a high pass completion rate and he pretty much always has it for Portugal. But we are just scratching the surface here. "Pass completion" is a pretty useless statistic on its own. So...
Not incapable but definitely not his natural game. He plays a lot more restricted for portugal because they haven't given him the keys to the operation the way we foolishly have. They make him plays as part of the team rather than the focus of all our attacking creativity.
- What types of passes do Bruno typically fail at?
Typically crosses, corners and overly ambitious passes. This is essentially why Bruno is considered a high risk player. In other words, Bruno does not misplace a bunch of simple passes or fail to think fast enough under pressure, as one would often think when one hears "low pass completion". His overall pass accuracy is low-ish because he takes far more chances rather than play the ball backwards or sideways, which he could choose to do. So...
He's terrible at set pieces and crosses and should stop spamming them. It's braindead low efficiency football played by bad teams. I won't get into whether he fails to think fast enough under pressure. I think he plays on instinct a lot and sometimes he see's things faster than others but any time he's under physical pressure, he panics and becomes half the player. Give him time and two wingers speeding forward and he's one of the best.
- WHY does he take these risks so often if he doesn't have to?
I don't think that anyone has the complete answer to this. Personally I think that he is instructed to be ambitious whenever the team struggles, which happens to be often. He has, wrongly or correctly, been tasked with carrying the creative burden by himself. This is of course not good. But at the same time I can understand it when you look at the other players in the team.
Now of course I can't claim that Bruno isn't hardwired to be overly ambitious with his passing. In fact, I suspect that he has that type of instinct. And while I do believe that he is instructed to play those passes, I also think that he goes a little too far sometimes. But I also cannot ignore what a Bruno game looks like when he plays in a functioning team with a functioning attack. I don't think he would have been considered wasteful at all in such a setup.
I hope that my summary and opinion points are at least somewhat fair, even though my bias is clear.
He takes these risks because that's the player he is naturally and we've somehow fecked ourselves into a situation where two managers in a row now have decided freestyle football with Bruno at the heart of it is our style of play. I agree with you in a functioning team with a function structure and great players around him, Bruno would look way better but who wouldn't?
I’m assuming being dispossessed refer to being tackled rather than giving the ball away from a poor pass? If that’s the case then imo it reinforces the idea that Bruno lacks press resistance.
He won’t get tackled too often as he’s afraid of keeping the ball in tight spaces so typically gets rid of it as quickly as possible which inevitably leads to a turnover in possession. This contrasts to someone like Odegaard who takes the ball in congested areas and is adept at evading challenges with good control and agility. While it may not always come off, hence the stats, I’d rather a player who takes responsibility in driving the team forward and helping to sustain attacks than someone like Bruno who for every chance created will give the ball away 10 times with overly ambitious passes.
Don’t know what others, besides the usual @58 posts defence team, think but watching this goal I can understand every player’s decisions and final position bar Bruno’s.
Kobie goes to cover than channel that is appearing and track the overlap…The back four are in position, Eriksen isn’t even in the first picture…But Bruno just lets a player run off him into a channel, who ends up scoring, while he stops on the edge of the box doing nothing.
If anyone sees that differently please explain it to me.
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The main difference is their dribbling ability which Bruno lacks and so he tends not to try and keep the ball in those instances
You could spin this in so many different ways, but it's worth noting that Ødegaard makes only marginally more dribbles per game than Bruno. I believe it's 0.9 vs 0.7 or something small like that.
I don't think that Bruno's risky passes typically comes when he's under pressure. I find that most of them happen when he has time on his side and spots a run. And I think that this adds to the frustration. He could have carried the ball longer or passed it sideways, but he picks the option with the lowest chance of success but with the highest upside in the event of success.
Agree with every word of this.
I think you probably want to check what is being classed as a dribble
I'd prefer it if all of our players were tidier on the ball and had an iota of intelligence when using it.
I would assume it means passing someone with the ball in your feet? I doubt the Opta nerds require step-overs or anything fancy. Catching the opponent on the half-turn might also count as a dribble.
Well the eye tests seems to be to suggest Odegard does this more often than Bruno and holds onto the ball a lot more often too (in crowded spaces) so again as often with certain stats it makes sense to check how they are being recorded
Exactly. A successful take on is described as using a dribble to get past a defender.
it’s possible for a player to be surrounded by defenders and use their close control to keep the ball and move it on without it being classed as a take on. A further limitation of how stats are used.
In the exact definition of a take on, no Odegaard won’t directly take on a defender directly and dribble past them but he will use his body to feint and manoeuvre out of tight situations.
Watching games will tell anyone that Bruno and Odegaard are worlds apart in dribbling or keeping the ball under pressure.
This is the problem with people who use stats to exalt Bruno, who really isn't all that. Football is played on the pitch, not a spreadsheet.
Until we have players who are interested in keeping the ball better and aren't so thick and selfish with it we will never be the level we aspire to be.
Hahahahahahaha. feck me, you're at it again.
I haven't posted in this thread for the past couple of months because I realised that there are a lot of dumb posters on Redcafe and the place is so toxic whenever we lose.
What I did see though, is that because you weren't getting enough attention in here, you made a new thread to continue this weird campaign. AND THEN when it wasn't getting the traction you desired, you were bumping it with nothing posts. It's actually pathetic.
Last time you made one of these posts with out-of-context screenshots you were absolutely shown up for the bullshit merchant you are. A part of me wants to understand how you can attribute blame for Spurs' second goal to Bruno, but your perspective is so warped that I'm not even slightly surprised.
Just like Forest, just like Copenhagen, just like Brighton... it's a goal that we've conceded time and time again but no matter what, in your brain, it always ends up being Bruno's fault. I actually wouldn't blame any individual for this goal; we're obviously told to setup a certain way in transition that makes us susceptible to cut-backs because it happens every other game. But I'm not you, and you hate Bruno.
"Eriksen isn't even in the first picture." That's strange, because if you'd have started taking your selective screenshots 2-3 seconds earlier you'll have seen that Bruno and Eriksen were within 5m of one another, and miles away from the ball as it bypassed them. You'd also see that Garnacho was closest to the ball when it crossed the half way line and last time you came out with this bollocks (Copenhagen away), you said it's the right winger's responsibility to track the midfielder's run, but now it's the attacking midfielder who's the 4th furthest player from Bentancur when he first receives the ball?
Rinse and repeat. You talk shit about a player you have a clear agenda against, I call it out, you move the goalposts, I call that out, you go shout elsewhere.
You clearly get no enjoyment out of watching United given you spend most of your free time crying on a forum. Maybe supporting a team isn't for you?
This is sums up the Bruno thread completely. Best signing since van Persie and it's not even close
From my recollection yesterday, most of his turnovers came from him trying to create goalscoring chances. The odd thing is that these were happening almost at the edge of his own box! He’s often trying to create scoring chances 70/80 yards from goal.
The bottom line is slow/weak midfielders that also aren't very good on the ball just aren't suited to advanced positions against good opposition. You're always going to be compensating for them, and it's even exasperated in the PL with how fast paced the game has become. Bruno is basically a min/max player, which is why he's so polarizing. Creates a ton in a vacuum and finds himself at the center of a ton of good moments for a team, but also straight up hampers the same team often over the course of a game.
If Bruno was the exact same player but also excellent technically in tight spaces, no one would care about his passing/decision making. Or if he was a Bellingham type physical beast, it wouldn't matter that he's not a good dribbler. But he's not, and it's incredibly difficult to build a side around a creative outlet that can't run particularly well nor dribble/keep tight control when pressed.
If Bruno was the exact same player but also excellent technically in tight spaces, no one would care about his passing/decision making. Or if he was a Bellingham type physical beast, it wouldn't matter that he's not a good dribbler. But he's not, and it's incredibly difficult to build a side around a creative outlet that can't run particularly well nor dribble/keep tight control when pressed.
Calling others toxic while jumping into a thread with mostly personal attacks and finishing with a strong hint at changing teams. Well done. That'll surely show people.
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Don’t even know where to start with this
Maybe calm down?Ok so I’m going to ignore the vast majority of the nonsense and stick to the context of my post and your response to that.
Firstly I started taking my ‘selective screenshots’ from Skys highlights on YouTube….
Had I started taking them 2-3 seconds earlier I’d have been screenshoting a header against the crossbar
.So just for you I’ve managed to get the full clip from the 90mins.
So from the ball being played into SKIPP in midfield Bruno is tracking the run of BENTANCUR. Garnacho is with UDOGGIE and Mainoo tracks SKIPP.
Bruno tracks the run of BENTANCUR all the way to the edge of the box, as was true of the Gothenburg goal, and then just stops tracking him. I’m not sure how I was ‘absolutely shown up’? Maybe just because you say so?
Now as I’ve said previously, I can see why every other player takes the action that they took, bar Bruno. I cannot understand why he stops tracking the run, and does so in many other instances as it gets near the box.
It has nothing to do with what position you are playing or what position the closest player to you is. You don’t stop tracking a full back who is on the penalty spot because you’re a CB. You can actually argue that Bruno would be better not tracking the runner all the way back from the first picture as then someone else, not sure who, might have picked him up.
You mentioned setting up for transition, well if the manager is instructing players to set up for transition while the opponents are still attacking on the edge of the box, then he shouldn’t be managing a Sunday league team. There’s no way that this is true. ‘If you’re tracking a runner to the edge of the box, at this point stop…Stay in the centre in case we get the ball back and we can counter’ Absolute nonsense.
The last point I’ll address is that ‘you wouldn’t blame anyone for this goal…as it’s a goal we keep conceding.’….Well yes we will, if players keep letting opponents run off them into the box. Hopefully the coaching staff don’t share your attention to detail.
As previously stated I’m more than open to the discussion on this. I can’t understand why Bruno stops tracking the goal scorer when he does, and I can see why everyone else does what they do…they seem to be doing the right things to me, but if anyone has a sensible opinion or counter argument I’m more than open to consider it.
I will finish by telling you ‘what I’ve noticed’….you can call Bruno terrible, slate his performances etc….but the minute you back up your opinion or counter the XG/XA with some actual evidence and research that’s when certain posters get personal.
1. If there's a problem with my post, admins will take relevant action.
2. I don't remember tagging you so not sure why you've replied to me
3. You're the most condescending poster in the thread, so I'll take your opinions with a half-assed pinch of salt
If there's a problem with my post, admins will take relevant action.
@Jeppers7, you're seeing what you want to see
Bruno was marking Pedro Porro. It is Mainoo marking Bentancur during the build-up to the goal.
If we're being super critical, Mainoo probably should not have vacated the zone where Bentancur received the ball (as both Eriksen's reaction to Mainoo before/after the goal and Bruno's final position would indicate) however he's an 18-year old learning to play the hardest position on the pitch in an unforgiving system, so it is what it is. However, following your own logic, Garnacho would also be 'to blame' for stopping running and not tracking the runner that Mainoo eventually follows. This is something else I would disagree with. If we're being really, really picky, we could also maybe question why Eriksen is so late to join the initial press and that maybe him vacating the centre so late is why Dalot is not inverted and supporting Mainoo, but we don't know with certainty what the team were instructed to do.
Credit to Spurs, they identified the frailties in our high press (Mainoo overloaded, 50m gap between our press and back 4) and managed to exploit it within 35 seconds of the 2nd half. From the point of the ball entering our half, it's a 5v5 situation with our 2 CMs and RW needing to make 70m recovery runs to attempt to be goal-side and give us defensive superiority.
Bruno was marking Pedro Porro. It is Mainoo marking Bentancur during the build-up to the goal.
If we're being super critical, Mainoo probably should not have vacated the zone where Bentancur received the ball (as both Eriksen's reaction to Mainoo before/after the goal and Bruno's final position would indicate) however he's an 18-year old learning to play the hardest position on the pitch in an unforgiving system, so it is what it is. However, following your own logic, Garnacho would also be 'to blame' for stopping running and not tracking the runner that Mainoo eventually follows. This is something else I would disagree with. If we're being really, really picky, we could also maybe question why Eriksen is so late to join the initial press and that maybe him vacating the centre so late is why Dalot is not inverted and supporting Mainoo, but we don't know with certainty what the team were instructed to do.
Credit to Spurs, they identified the frailties in our high press (Mainoo overloaded, 50m gap between our press and back 4) and managed to exploit it within 35 seconds of the 2nd half. From the point of the ball entering our half, it's a 5v5 situation with our 2 CMs and RW needing to make 70m recovery runs to attempt to be goal-side and give us defensive superiority.
Good effort for clearing things up, lets go through it.
I have a hard time thinking that somebody can watch our games and at the end can say Bruno lost the ball just once or twice. Maybe the stat you looked into only reflected a certain way of being dispossessed? Because once per game on average can't be true. It probably only means when he is dispossessed by a tackle, isn't it? But a change in possession should not just cover that but misplaced passes too.
And just for the record, that wouldn't even a problem per se seeing him as the main creative force in our team and expecting him to take risks. The issue is, he takes them apparently way too often and there is no risk management recognizable at all.
A bit subjective I guess. I mean, I don't know if dribbling really is the right way to describe the issue, I guess there are only a few here expecting him to drive the ball through packed defences all the time, it is more close control and press resistence where he, especially from the eye test, is a little problematic. Which may have led to him tending to go for early releases of the ball. And considering that a central attacking midfielder is tasked to play in the zones that are usually the most packed when on the ball, I'd say that this ability or better Brunos inability will limit his capabilities. Especially but not exclusively these days. I think, there aren't many great 10ish players who weren't good with their feet in terms of avoiding challenges.
But I personally would even give you that point, it isn't great but I certainly could live with that weakness as there are other ways to secure the ball.
Same here, wouldn't jump on the guy for it as well. I just think, we have to stop calling finishing one of his strength as the period where that was the case is far back at this point. (I think, the main issue here is asking him to play too far from opposition goal. This might be the root cause of our worries with him because it emphasizes things he isn't good at and makes it more difficult to show the things he actually is)
It is subjective again. I think, most people are fine when the captain or other experienced players demand certain performance from others. Even in a "verbally aggressive" way and connected with gestures. With Bruno though it looks more like he is lamenting, asking players why didn't they do this or that. This isn't firing up people, this looks more like making players insecure. It certainly is a subjective point and yes, it probably is a bit overexaggerated by now by, I guess, some radicalized arguments on both sides. People want a leading figure who can be leaned on, somebody who is driving the team forward. With Bruno it looks as if he is mostly a fish out of water, arguing with the ref, blaming players for mistakes, not the outlook of somebody, who is in control of the situation. Those hopeful expectations might be a bit oldschool these days. Long time ago when we had a proper captain so who knows, maybe these claims are unfair to a degree.
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It isn't useless at all. It just depends which issue you are trying to address with it. I agree with you though, the player is probably capable of playing in a way where he would have a higher percentage. The question is, how much of his output would vanish if he did that...
I think Brunos biggest strength his ability to see runs (vision) and his quick execution of the right pass. So of course we would want him to play to his strength, but I think it needs to framed by a certain set of rules. The thing is, when he early releases passes and the opposition wins it back, they are almost always up against a team that isn't really set which makes attacking us easier and it consumes a lot of energy. That is what people mean, if we are under the cosh already and we know, some of our players have some limitations, all this is exaggerated when we make it so easy for the opposition to get the ball back. Sometimes this frantic back and forth will lead to us somehow ending up victorious as we have a few very talented players but sometimes the chaos it produces will kick back at us as well. And this is, what people mean with him "spamming" balls. I think the Spurs game was a good example here. The long ball was a good idea in that game, but going for it all the time lost us way more balls than it created chances for us. And at some point, you have to ask questions.
See above.
I agree. I think, at this point it is next to impossible not to lay blame on the manager(s) as well. The thing is: I think Bruno thrives in this situation, as you say, high risk high reward. He is functional in split seconds and able to execute passes. And as that works in some games and in some phases in the past, the managers set up the team around it. The issue is though, this was never sustainable. The combination of Bruno and Rashford is fantastic on paper, but by now most opposition are aware of it. It isn't just Brunos fault that no other player stepped up and took away a bit of the burden from him. It also isn't his fault that the team is as vulnerable and shaky as it is and has such issues to mitigate the risks he is more than ready to take.
Actually I am pretty sure most people would agree with you. I certainly would. But I think the issue here is not just by 1 or 2 or 3 key passes against 50 or 65 or 75% pass accuracy, it is the predictability. You just know that when you get close enough to him he will release the ball early. And as long as you have good defenders you'll be able to defend those early balls more often than not. And if you see the same move over and over again, the frustration builds up and this usually is the first step in finding more faults with whinging and so on.
I think, ETH has put his future on him and Rashford and I think, he is going to pay for it. Because, even while this combination is great on paper, it is too easy to prevent for the opposition at this point plus the form of the players have dealt him badly. I think, the only way to remedy this situation is to accept that Bruno has one spot in the team, which is either as part of the forward line or, at best, in the ten spot but with restriction on where to roam because he is then needed to cover certain areas against the ball and be ready to be passed to on the ball. All the ideas of him playing as CM have to go down the toilet. Same as the plans attempting it with McTominay and Eriksen - their skillsets are simply not rounded enough.
Bruno’s inconsistency is his problem. You don’t expect a string of 8/10 performances but what you do expect from the key player in attack is much more consistency, even if that means fewer Hollywood balls that find their man.
None of the other attackers can do jack so even if he passes to feet to Antony / Rashford / Hojlund it's just coming back to him anyway. He's forced to do the hollywood balls.
I would assume it means every loss of possession that isn't the result of a blocked/intercepted shot or pass. So basically every tackle or whenever he receives the ball and runs straight into the opponent, losing the ball in the process.
I feel that this is 100% clouded by our lack of success. If we were winning big trophies then I think most people would view him as a true leader instead. Although that is purely hypothetical.
Not that much. He seems to be on the same number chances created etc even when he keeps possession well. The main difference maker as far as I can tell is his team mates. When he has the luxury of being surrounded by good players (or players having a good day) and smart movement, a huge weight is taken off his shoulders. Suddenly he can play that simple sideways pass that wasn't even an option before. And he can also trust that his team mates might create something out of it.
For me the solution is simple: keep Bruno and get better players (and possibly manager, but I'm still on the fence there). His predictability is mainly a problem because the opponent knows that everything must go through him. Release him from that burden and you got an excellent player.
By the way, thanks for the discussion! I'm sorry about the snarky back and forth in the past. I guess this proves that longer discussions may be more time consuming but they also reduce the chance of misunderstanding each other.
As I said I would listen to a counter argument but this is nonsense. I’m seeing what actually developed and you’re looking at ways to absolve Bruno of blame by taking the play back to a goal kick. Bruno pressed, he wasn’t marking Porro and once one pass had cut through the flimsy press, he rightly headed back towards his own goal.@Jeppers7, you're seeing what you want to see
Bruno was marking Pedro Porro. It is Mainoo marking Bentancur during the build-up to the goal.
If we're being super critical, Mainoo probably should not have vacated the zone where Bentancur received the ball (as both Eriksen's reaction to Mainoo before/after the goal and Bruno's final position would indicate) however he's an 18-year old learning to play the hardest position on the pitch in an unforgiving system, so it is what it is. However, following your own logic, Garnacho would also be 'to blame' for stopping running and not tracking the runner that Mainoo eventually follows. This is something else I would disagree with. If we're being really, really picky, we could also maybe question why Eriksen is so late to join the initial press and that maybe him vacating the centre so late is why Dalot is not inverted and supporting Mainoo, but we don't know with certainty what the team were instructed to do.
Credit to Spurs, they identified the frailties in our high press (Mainoo overloaded, 50m gap between our press and back 4) and managed to exploit it within 35 seconds of the 2nd half. From the point of the ball entering our half, it's a 5v5 situation with our 2 CMs and RW needing to make 70m recovery runs to attempt to be goal-side and give us defensive superiority.
Mainoo has to go to the ball in the centre circle and track the run, Garnacho is with the fullback. The actual shape of the team is fine as we head back towards our goal. Moving Mainoo out of the centre towards Bentancur is ridiculous as it would leave a huge channel and effectively a 3 on 3.
Even up until just before the final pass we are in a good shape. Again taking Mainoo out to the right would leave a huge channel and potentially an easier goal for a different player.
Bruno just has to go with the runner into the box. It’s that simple. There’s not a single reason why he shouldn’t. You just can’t bring yourself to place ANY blame on him which really impacts on your credibility.
The one aspect of what you wrote that I’d agree with is that Eriksen coming into the press left Mainoo isolated. But if Bruno tracks his runner when he moves left instead of running straight he could have dealt with it.
Me: 'Hey Google, why does Bruno have so many chances created but so few assists to his name?'
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