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2023-24 Performances


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Scandi Red

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Not a single top club were in for him when he was playing for Sporting banging in goals and assisting. Of course they'd know of him.
Has this been confirmed? And even if it's true, it doesn't mean that they didn't rate him highly. Perhaps our rivals needed to strengthen different areas on the pitch. Timing matters.

Ødegaard creates chances, scores and controls the game for Arsenal. How many top clubs do you know that plays with a number 10 that lacks technically?
Ødegaard has been better than Bruno for exactly one season. Last season was his best so far by a huge margin. Let's see if he can keep it up first, shall we?

Bruno is a better goalscorer and chance creator in my opinion, but he plays for a less functional team. But Ødegaard is much better at keeping possession. Which makes sense, because Ødegaard will play CM when he's not playing AM. Bruno on the other hand will play on the wing. They are different types of players.
 

lost7

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Someone mentioned Liverpool selling Coutinho earlier, and I am starying to believe they might be spot on with the comparison.

Bruno is a great player, one of the best in the world when it comes to creating chances, but perhaps for us to make the jump to the next level it would be better to have a less erratic player in that position
 

NZT-One

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Our attack isn't dysfunctional because of Bruno. Our attack is on life support and Bruno is the one of the few keeping the machine on. He's possibly the best chance creator in the game, only matched by De Bruyne. And he's never injured and he presses well. Imagine what he could do in a functional side...
He might be even better. He might stick out because he doesn't fit another system than ours. Who knows. He creates a lot of chances, his vision and quick execution is really fantastic but he has quite a few downsides to his game (see below). His injury record and fitness level is seriously good, no question about it, but it also has to be seen in an overall context with other up- and downsides. I don't know if he really presses well. He for sure knows how to look busy most of the time. Same hint to you as to many others on here - a player who is closing down another player isn't instantly a presser, nevermind a good presser. As so often, Bruno is the only one furthest up to do it - that isn't good at all - he is wasting energy and he leaves room in behind that others have to cover.

If the Bruno debate is supposed to be productive, extreme bashing like "he is the root of all our issues" is just as nonsensical as some of the "Bruno can't be touched because look how good his numbers were". Nobody denies that he has been largely productive for us. But in a team that hasn't been all too successful - not in terms of results, not in terms of evolving a playstyle. He surely isn't the only factor in that equasion but he for sure is one of them.

City's entire formation and excellence would crumble because Bruno gets dispossessed 70 yards from his own goal once or twice per game or play a couple of unsuccessful through balls that get picked up by the opponent's goalkeeper? Sure..
Now we are getting somewhere... A well drilled team like City can balance out a player who is a high volume risktaker. A barely working team like ours has more trouble with it. He would for sure create goals and assists for City too, his personal record would probably look the same or better, but maybe not the total output of the team. Thats the thing, Bruno has played well - but we can't just walk around calling players good and bad in 2023. We have to be more specific what they do well and what they don't do well. A manager like Pep values possession very highly, I think he would take a pass on Bruno even though he knows he would bring scoring points - it wouldn't be worth it for him. We currently don't know what we are valueing. What we are seeing is a team who is supposed to be transition based team, which more often then not looks unable to get a grip on a football match. And this frantic look has to do with how we play, and if our main objective in attack is spamming balls in behind, then we will continue to have issues.

You mentioned chance creation, fitness and workrate - 2 out of these 3 should be prerequisites. But granted, we are certainly lucky that he is as fit as he is. Good for him. But also lets talk about his downsides:
He is pretty weak defensively. While he certainly looks busy, it doesn't take much to get by him.
He is also not a great dribbler, an ability that comes handy when operating in tight spaces.
Bruno is also a very emotional player - people will call it passionate, alright, each to their own. For sure he can't be put in the calm-cool-headed category. Which then means, that he is whinging and if stuff doesn't go his way, he will throw arms and head will go down. He is also very susceptible of rushing stuff, trying to force things, being overeager. Which potentially results in him spamming ball after ball in behind and therefor ball after ball that has to be won back from oppostions 10 seconds later.

Nothing malicious but I think, for his role, as now captain for the team, there are a few clear downsides to him. Doesn't mean we have to switch him or that he hasn't been good, maybe even one of the best for us. But still shouldn't make him untouchable. Question shouldn't be "has Bruno been good or bad for us?" because he has been one of the better players for us for sure. The question is, seeing that we do need to evolve as a team, will he be able to make the next step.
 

Scandi Red

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I don't know if he really presses well.
I think he does. Keep in mind that it's possible to press and cover the lane behind you as you burst forwards. Pressing is of course a team effort (one which Ten Hag seems to have tried to implement) so it's not every effective if just one player does it. But when Bruno presses alone, do you think it's a case of him ignoring orders or a case of his team mates forgetting to do their part? I'm inclined to think it's the latter, unless Ten Hag wants us to be a counter-attacking team that lies low.

A well drilled team like City can balance out a player who is a high volume risktaker. A barely working team like ours has more trouble with it.
I think you could flip it around too. A poorly functioning team is way more dependent on moments of brilliance and Bruno has kind of been synonymous with that. Him and Rashford are the only players in midfield and attack capable of creating goals and chances out of thin air on a fairly consistent basis.

A manager like Pep values possession very highly, I think he would take a pass on Bruno even though he knows he would bring scoring points - it wouldn't be worth it for him.
This is one of those hypotheticals that we'll never know the answer for. But people have all sorts of ideas about what Pep wants. Haaland was (hilariously) supposed to make City worse too. There are also former Pep players who has gone out and said that he values creativity and risk-taking in the final 3rd. But you have to be good enough. Some of the stuff De Bruyne is doing would look insane it wasn't for the fact that it works out so often. That is also a part of the difference between good team mates and being "alone". Plenty of De Bruyne's world class passes are almost 100% dependent on world class runs, interceptions and finishes.

But also lets talk about his downsides:
He is pretty weak defensively. While he certainly looks busy, it doesn't take much to get by him.
He is also not a great dribbler, an ability that comes handy when operating in tight spaces.
Bruno is also a very emotional player - people will call it passionate, alright, each to their own. For sure he can't be put in the calm-cool-headed category. Which then means, that he is whinging and if stuff doesn't go his way, he will throw arms and head will go down. He is also very susceptible of rushing stuff, trying to force things, being overeager. Which potentially results in him spamming ball after ball in behind and therefor ball after ball that has to be won back from oppostions 10 seconds later.
Tackling wouldn't even make my top 5 of important skills for an attacking midfielder. Possibly not even top 10. Pressing and intercepting are way more important, but we also seem to disagree on Bruno's ability there.

Dribbling, while being far from the top of the list of what I value in attacking midfielders, would for sure have been useful. No disagreements there.

The part about his personality is very subjective. I don't think this is an issue personally.
 

Scandi Red

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Yes Bruno is amazing at everything
Who has said that? I have in the last couple of posts admitted that Bruno is not good at tackling and dribbling.

I also think that it's possible to be a great attacking midfielder despite this. Shocking stuff, I know.
 

Adisa

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The worst world-class player I've ever seen. Is even world-class?
 

Scandi Red

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The worst world-class player I've ever seen. Is even world-class?
Looking at the last 3 years as a whole, Bruno has been the second best attacking midfielder in the world. De Bruyne being the obvious number one.

If that is enough to be considered world class would depend entirely on your definition. According to Fergie's definition it would definitely not be enough, seeing as he claims to only have coached 4 world class players in his career.
 
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Adisa

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Looking at the last 3 years as a whole, Bruno has been the second best attacking midfielder in the world. De Bruyne being the obvious number one.

If that is enough to be considered world class would depend entirely on your definition. According to Fergie's definition it would definitely not be enough, seeing as he claims to only have coached 4 world class players in his career.
For me, it's not this simple. He might truly be the second-best AM in the world but there are others I would trade him for without a second though, even if they have much ower output.
Yes, he creates tons of chances but when you're one of the biggest reasons your team cedes possession, is that really okay for an AM. Knowing when to pass it short and play long is a really key element for a team. A lot of times, it seems like he's playing percentages. The midfield version of Ronaldo's freekicks.
 

Frank White

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For me, it's not this simple. He might truly be the second-best AM in the world but there are others I would trade him for without a second though, even if they have much ower output.
Yes, he creates tons of chances but when you're one of the biggest reasons your team cedes possession, is that really okay for an AM. Knowing when to pass it short and play long is a really key element for a team. A lot of times, it seems like he's playing percentages. The midfield version of Ronaldo's freekicks.
Out of interest who you swap him for?
 

mariko48

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If we are gonna stick with Bruno then we need a new CM that can control possession so Bruno can receive more balls to try as many hollywood passes as he wants.
 

marktan

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Same sort of thing this forum does.. sell Pogba despite being one of our few creative outlets (2018 to 2020). Sell Shaw as Mourinho has a grudge against him. Sell Martial. Sell any technically good player.

People expect Zidane and Iniesta rolled into one.. fact is Bruno is one of the best players on the team. It's the players like Antony, Mount, and the rest in the squad like VDB, AWB etc that don't do anything that we should be replacing.
 

cyberman

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For me, it's not this simple. He might truly be the second-best AM in the world but there are others I would trade him for without a second though, even if they have much ower output.
Yes, he creates tons of chances but when you're one of the biggest reasons your team cedes possession, is that really okay for an AM. Knowing when to pass it short and play long is a really key element for a team. A lot of times, it seems like he's playing percentages. The midfield version of Ronaldo's freekicks.
Why do you want the best chance creating AM in world football to keep possession?
 

fps

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Now we are getting somewhere... A well drilled team like City can balance out a player who is a high volume risktaker.
That’s not what happens at City, if you give the ball away regularly you’re out of the team. The standards are the standards, end of.
 

Mainoldo

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The love hate with him continues. He can only play as a 10 with two protectors behind him and even then his ball possession is terrible. I just don’t see our style ever being what we want to see with him as the focal point. Too wasteful and not skillful enough or powerful to ever be a focal point.

In my eyes.
 

Licha-Vidic

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Simple question for you: If Bruno was as good as you think he is, do you not think the top sides would be in for him?
To his supporters Bruno is the holy grail, yet he's turning 29 years old in 2 weeks time while he has never competed in any major titles in his life.

He has no league title to his name.
He has never been involved in any title race in his life.
He has never played in even 1 UCL semi final game, leave alone playing in a UCL final in his own life.

A 29 year old very good player who has nothing to show for himself. The guy is not as good as people portray him to be.

A Europa League standard player. The previous 2 seasons have proved that.
individually for him and for the level the club he's a focal point in.
No. But he's very good. I thought he was excellent last season and generally since he's been here.
This are his numbers

He had 8 goals and 8 assists in 3300 PL minutes last season, and 10 goals and 6 assists in 3100 the season before that. That is actually very mediocre. Additionally, he's our penalty kick taker.

He's the cause of all the frantic football we play. A captain who's supposed to be in control but always in panic mode.
Even his output has gone down dramatically.

As another poster has said, maybe he's our Coutinho. We sell him for the team to go a step higher.
 

cyberman

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To his supporters Bruno is the holy grail, yet he's turning 29 years old in 2 weeks time while he has never competed in any major titles in his life.

He has no league title to his name.
He has never been involved in any title race in his life.
He has never played in even 1 UCL semi final game, leave alone playing in a UCL final in his own life.

A 29 year old very good player who has nothing to show for himself. The guy is not as good as people portray him to be.

A Europa League standard player. The previous 2 seasons have proved that.
individually for him and for the level the club he's a focal point in.

This are his numbers

He had 8 goals and 8 assists in 3300 PL minutes last season, and 10 goals and 6 assists in 3100 the season before that. That is actually very mediocre. Additionally, he's our penalty kick taker.

He's the cause of all the frantic football we play. A captain who's supposed to be in control but always in panic mode.
Even his output has gone down dramatically.

As another poster has said, maybe he's our Coutinho. We sell him for the team to go a step higher.
Bruno crested the most chances then anyone in the league year, what you’re quoting is the impact Weghorst and Antony playing in front of him had on his output.
 

yamo123x

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Quality player but so erratic.

Flashes of brilliance followed by frustration, pretty much sums up this guy.

He takes risks and this is why he picks up so many assists but he is so wasteful and kills lots of our attacking moves at times.
 

Trip721

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Bruno's is a player who will do 9 terrible things in a game (flick pass to no one, losing the ball, flick pass to no one again, slow on the ball, etc.) but then have that one moment of a perfectly weighted pass or that flick pass that does work. And for some reason that one play that leads to a goal is why he is a "maestro" in the midfield and not a player who kills a lot more chances. I'd be happy if they could move on from him and upgrade that position.
 

Scandi Red

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Bruno's is a player who will do 9 terrible things in a game (flick pass to no one, losing the ball, flick pass to no one again, slow on the ball, etc.) but then have that one moment of a perfectly weighted pass or that flick pass that does work.
This narrative needs to die. It's such bullshit.
 

The Corinthian

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When you compare Bruno to other players in the same areas/roles...Odegaard, KdB, Maddison - you'll notice that these players have a lot more guile and finesse in their play and a lot less wasteful in possession.

Bruno, although he does create lots, and chip in with g+as (although that's diminishing), he always, always wants to play the Hollywood pass, or the highlight reel shot. It's such a stupid way of playing, especially when you're in the oppo's half. There's nothing wrong with circulating the ball and finding an opening.

Against Spurs, I lost count of how many times he tried to cross from an area of the pitch that was fairly central - which is such an low-scoring probability play - you'll need strikers who's off the ball movement and heading is second to none and we don't have that at the moment. I couldn't understand why he tried that same cross from the centre again and again. It was such a waste.

EtH needs to drill it into him or drop him. I wouldn't be averse to him coming on as an impact sub for a few games and give Mainoo, or Amad when he's back or Mount a run of games in that position.
 

Trip721

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This narrative needs to die. It's such bullshit.
But it's true, if he is at the top of the box and someone passes to him with his back against the ball, he'll try a flick pass, hoping someone is there. And it's great he can do long passes across the field, but that's par for the course. Maybe it's the lack of wide players not knowing how to run into space, but if that's the case, what the heck do they do during practice?
 

Scandi Red

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But it's true, if he is at the top of the box and someone passes to him with his back against the ball, he'll try a flick pass, hoping someone is there. And it's great he can do long passes across the field, but that's par for the course. Maybe it's the lack of wide players not knowing how to run into space, but if that's the case, what the heck do they do during practice?
If Bruno is as hopeless as you say, let's compare his and De Bruyne's PL stats from last season and look at the minor details and not just goals and assists:

BrunoDe Bruyne
Minutes played33202425
Passes per game50.142.4
Pass accuracy77.7%80.8%
Key passes per game3.23.1
Long balls per game3.12.5
Through balls per game0.60.5
Crosses per game0.92
Dispossessed per game1.10.9
Dribbles per game0.91
Shots per game2.52
Interceptions per game0.70.3
Tackles per game1.80.9
Dribbled past per game1.10.8
Fouls per game1.10.6

Bruno is significantly more involved in the game (50.1 passes vs 42.4) and overall better defensively. They get dispossessed roughly the same amount and their passing stats are eerily similar, with the exception that Bruno hits slightly more long balls whereas De Bruyne hits more crosses.

De Bruyne is the superior goalscorer with 7 goals (just one less than Bruno) in far fewer minutes and also fewer shots per game (2 vs 2.5). I guess there are more penalties in Bruno's tally too.

The key difference is that De Bruyne has twice as many assists with FAR fewer key passes. That is the difference between a functional and a non-functional attack.
 
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NZT-One

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I think he does. Keep in mind that it's possible to press and cover the lane behind you as you burst forwards. Pressing is of course a team effort (one which Ten Hag seems to have tried to implement) so it's not every effective if just one player does it. But when Bruno presses alone, do you think it's a case of him ignoring orders or a case of his team mates forgetting to do their part? I'm inclined to think it's the latter, unless Ten Hag wants us to be a counter-attacking team that lies low.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think Bruno is ignoring instructions but there is a good chance, he didn't get a "do not press" instruction. Safe to assume given that he did exactly that under Ole as well. I think, Bruno is intelligent enough to know, what kind of thing is seen as positive. And if nothing comes together, it is better to look busy than to look lame. Same as J. Henderson who knew exactly what things to say to be considered a true red. Those players aren't idiots, they know what fans like and don't like. And if a player is showing a certain behaviour time and time again, I think it is more likely that he is doing something out of the norm than the whole rest of the team is doing something out of the norm.

I think you could flip it around too. A poorly functioning team is way more dependent on moments of brilliance and Bruno has kind of been synonymous with that. Him and Rashford are the only players in midfield and attack capable of creating goals and chances out of thin air on a fairly consistent basis.
But we can agree on this status quo to be something we want to get away from, aren't we? I would agree with you, the two mentioned players are the only ones to produce anything of late. But they are also synonymus of quite a few of our struggles.

This is one of those hypotheticals that we'll never know the answer for. But people have all sorts of ideas about what Pep wants. Haaland was (hilariously) supposed to make City worse too. There are also former Pep players who has gone out and said that he values creativity and risk-taking in the final 3rd. But you have to be good enough. Some of the stuff De Bruyne is doing would look insane it wasn't for the fact that it works out so often. That is the difference between good team mates and being "alone".
There is difference between risk-taking and spamming. Thats the key issue here. With Bruno, I struggle sometimes to believe that there is some sort of thought process or risk assessment before he does things. Nobody wants the creative player to be riskaverse, but when risk isn't a factor anymore at all, then we're back with the struggles. De Bruynes stuff comes off as often as it does, because the rest of the team is organised well and he isn't as risk-happy, when he knows the team is out of shape. Thats something, that seems like completely missing from Brunos game. At least in most games.

Tackling wouldn't even make my top 5 of important skills for an attacking midfielder. Possibly not even top 10. Pressing and intercepting are way more important, but we also seem to disagree on Bruno's ability there.

Dribbling, while being far from the top of the list of what I value in attacking midfielders, would for sure have been useful. No disagreements there.

The part about his personality is very subjective. I don't think this is an issue personally.
You were the one who brought up his pressing. I said even though he is busy a lot, he isn't all too productive with it. Out of interest, when dribbling is far from the top, what are the top 10 of your list?
 

NZT-One

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The key difference is that De Bruyne has twice as many assists with FAR fewer key passes. That is the difference between a functional and a non-functional attack.
OR the difference of knowing when the time is right. The overall point is yours though, I think it is fair to say, that Bruno could have been involved in more goals if it weren't for the rest of our players. What I don't know though, is if KDB isn't suffering from that as well (even if probably to a lower degree).
 

Cassidy

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OR the difference of knowing when the time is right. The overall point is yours though, I think it is fair to say, that Bruno could have been involved in more goals if it weren't for the rest of our players. What I don't know though, is if KDB isn't suffering from that as well (even if probably to a lower degree).
We know its a far greater lower degree because we can see the differences between how the 2 teams attackers out or under perform their xG
 

acid_fuji

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I reckon him playing once much more deeper and he did good job and he wasn‘t at all that wasteful - could be that is trying to hollywood passes because that is what he is instructed?
 

Scandi Red

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OR the difference of knowing when the time is right.
Granted I don't know how the opta people count key passes, but I think it must lead to a clear chance for it to count? It's even more staggering when you look at the numbers total.

De Bruyne:
83.5 key passes, 16 assists

Bruno:
118 key passes, 8 assists

A De Bruyne key pass is roughly 3 times as likely to end up in the back of the net! :eek:
 
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NZT-One

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We know its a far greater lower degree because we can see the differences between how the 2 teams attackers out or under perform their xG
Correct. What I am not sure of, isn't XG calculated from the shots on goal? In a way that every shot that misses the goal isn't included?

But yeah for sure, Brunos numbers could definitely higher if he would have Cities players in front of him. But as long as we don't have such players, we have to adapt, Bruno as well.
 

NZT-One

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Ye Oliver is a prick.
I can tell that the guy is making me furious sat on my comfortable couch. I am sure he is just as frustrating when close to you...

If we are gonna stick with Bruno then we need a new CM that can control possession so Bruno can receive more balls to try as many hollywood passes as he wants.
Control possession and win the ball back because this will need to be done when Bruno continues playing a quantity game.

Same sort of thing this forum does.. sell Pogba despite being one of our few creative outlets (2018 to 2020). Sell Shaw as Mourinho has a grudge against him. Sell Martial. Sell any technically good player.

People expect Zidane and Iniesta rolled into one.. fact is Bruno is one of the best players on the team. It's the players like Antony, Mount, and the rest in the squad like VDB, AWB etc that don't do anything that we should be replacing.
He might be the very best player on the team but what is that giving us when the team itself isn't really producing and out of reach of its actual rivals? That is one of the main points of the whole debate - Bruno might be the best United player of the last 10 years - but WHO CARES. We need players who are better than our rivals and/or enabling us as a team to get better results than them. The team doesn't seem to evolve and a reason of that MIGHT be Bruno. Because he seems the only creative outlet we have. The rest of the attackers seemingly is always trying to get on the end of stuff. Imagine Bruno gets injured for while, wouldn't we want the team to be able to play without him?

I've seen Cities match against Newcastle, it wasn't really noticable that De Bruyne wasn't there. Obviously, no team will remain as good without one of their best players. But Brunos role to United seems way way way tooo instrumental.

That’s not what happens at City, if you give the ball away regularly you’re out of the team. The standards are the standards, end of.
True.
 

1988

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Currently he's our biggest issue, in my opinion. He needs to perform for us to be cohesive. If he's having a good game the team is having a good game. Hopefully he just needs to play himself into form.
 

Rozay

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If Bruno is as hopeless as you say, let's compare his and De Bruyne's PL stats from last season and look at the minor details and not just goals and assists:

BrunoDe Bruyne
Minutes played33202425
Passes per game50.142.4
Pass accuracy77.7%80.8%
Key passes per game3.23.1
Long balls per game3.12.5
Through balls per game0.60.5
Crosses per game0.92
Dispossessed per game1.10.9
Dribbles per game0.91
Shots per game2.52
Interceptions per game0.70.3
Tackles per game1.80.9
Dribbled past per game1.10.8
Fouls per game1.10.6

Bruno is significantly more involved in the game (50.1 passes vs 42.4) and overall better defensively. They get dispossessed roughly the same amount and their passing stats are eerily similar, with the exception that Bruno hits slightly more long balls whereas De Bruyne hits more crosses.

De Bruyne is the superior goalscorer with 7 goals (just one less than Bruno) in far fewer minutes and also fewer shots per game (2 vs 2.5). I guess there are more penalties in Bruno's tally too.

The key difference is that De Bruyne has twice as many assists with FAR fewer key passes. That is the difference between a functional and a non-functional attack.
There you have it guys. Bruno is factually better than De Bruyne.
 

Scandi Red

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There you have it guys. Bruno is factually better than De Bruyne.
That's not what I said, but whatever.. I just busted the myth that Bruno does nothing but get dispossessed and misplace passes. He clearly doesn't.
 

NZT-One

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That's not what I said, but whatever.. I just busted the myth that Bruno does nothing but get dispossessed and misplace passes. He clearly doesn't.
Come on mate, you know that nobody seriously thinks that. Lets not always expect the opposite site in a discussion to be completely amoral or completely daft.
 

Jeppers7

Pogfamily Mafia
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
7,435
He’s having a great season (getting in early, it will happen in a few weeks when he has a better game)
 

JuriM

New Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
2,266
Location
Estonia
There you have it guys. Bruno is factually better than De Bruyne.
No, it shows how to utilize the so called "nr 10" position players is modern tactical setups to hide their individual weaknesses and how to make sure their somewhat disengaged playstyle won't harm the team in defensive setup - while bringing the best out of them in attacking setup.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
27,201
Location
...
That's not what I said, but whatever.. I just busted the myth that Bruno does nothing but get dispossessed and misplace passes. He clearly doesn't.
Well you helpfully informed us that he also makes key passes. I think we all know that. I doubt anyone has ever accused him of being unable to create chances.