At least the Glastons of this thread come from outside
Bundesliga 2016/17
- Thread starter Piratesoup
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It's still a minnow team in the grand scheme, when you look at their money and their standing. They still lose their best players to PL teams, they are not as reputable as the big teams in Europe. That's why i put it into quotes by the way. Don't have to be a professor to understand this. Barca and Real thrashed Bayern in consecutive seasons, was a gap in class, i don't know what's more to say.That "minnow" had it easier with Barca than with us last season, and gave Real a run for their money in the final. That *minnow* also was chasing Barca to the very last matchday of the Primera Division.
So maybe you could put substance to your arbitrary ranking of Barca/Real way above anyone else, and especially that comet-like ascension of the 3 PL clubs you've mentioned?
You aren't a frustrated 60er, btw?It'd certainly explain the nuttery that comes with pretty much each of your statements
I am not a "60er", no. I am not interested in any German team. It's just ridiculous how many Bayern fans overestimate their team. Having pretty much footballing surroundings, i see it almost every day.
Your mocking of my statement is a perfect example for the delusion of many Bayern fans. They wouldn't even consider it in any way to not be the third best team in Europe,..for them this thought is so unreal, that they would make fun about it. Just like they made fun about people who said that they are not the best team in Europe.... before getting steamroled by Real Madrid...
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It's interesting how you leave the most important aspects out of the picture: results and success.
Well for one not having an agenda, you seem really invested in telling Bayern fans how supposedly overrated they are
There you go. Anyone who tells a Bayern fan, that they are not the best in the universe, must surely have an agenda against the team. Surely can't just come by observation and analyzation. Surely not. Has to be some deep lying hatred against the club. Gosh..
Thanks for providing the perfect example
Your freaking out and resorting to exaggerated claims nobody made other than you, is just as telling
I'm not even a Bayern fan and it's very obvious to me that you have some kind of personal problem with the club.
Gladbach - Leverkusen was a good match, was it? Gladbach seem to be sharp right from the start of the season. On the other side iam suprised how bad Schlacke was. There was nearly nothing and that against Frankfurt, who are for me one of the weakest teams. I expect Darmstadt,Ingolstad and Bremen fighting for relegation, but Frankfurt is weak too. Of course, Schlacke has some transfers who came late, hopefully all those problems for Heidel and Weinzierl are holding them back.
No, not with the club. A lot of my friends are Bayern fans, and i like talking about football with them. Nobody of them is claiming that Bayern is the 3rd best team in Europe though.
What i have a problem with are ill-informed Bayern fans, who watch nothing but their club, and throwing statements around that they are better then club x and club y.
So people who don't share your view are ill-informed and don't have a clue about football. That right?
It's hard to read this thread. It's not even about the Bundesliga anymore, it seems to be about European club rankings now...Real, Barca, Atletico and Bayern are clearly the four best (= most effective, most successful and looking at their squads) teams in Europe right now, everyone with eyes and a little bit of football knowledge can see that. It doesn't make any sense to put them into an order, because that can change from year to year.
Behind those clubs are others like Juventus, PSG and City. Everyone can decide on his or her own, if there is a huge gap between those clubs or a small one, but there clearly is one.
Behind those clubs are others like Juventus, PSG and City. Everyone can decide on his or her own, if there is a huge gap between those clubs or a small one, but there clearly is one.
No, people who have a short horizon in footballing terms, and claiming wild stuff they have no idea about are ill-informed. Usually the Bayern/Bundesliga fans who are claiming that Bayern is better then the PL teams, and the Bundesliga is equal/better then the PL are people who never watch the PL. I know plenty of them in my circle. Apart from Roaaar, where you learn nothing about the PL, they don't watch any international league football. Have never met someone who is really following the PL (watching 2-3 live games a week, MOTD, other analysis) doing those wild claims.
That's plainly wrong. Best teams in the past. Last year it was City, Bayern, Atletico and Real. How it will be this year nobody can say. Just claiming this team is that good, because of what it did in the past is just not right. City, United and Chelsea all have better players then Atletico. Given the right tactics, they are the better team as well.
City in Europe will be a trainwreck. They will face just the same Pep-related problems in Europe as we did, just with way worse players. Wouldn't be too suprised if they wouldn't survive the group stages this year. Barca is obviously superior to them and Gladbach knows rather well how to cope with Peps football.
I'm not claiming, they're the best because of their past. I'm saying, they're the best, because they have the best teams. Players mean nothing in football, it is about teams. United and Chelsea don't have better teams than Atletico, i doubt they will have/would have the tactics to beat them over two games as well. Last year it wasn't City, because surely you don't want to say, that City has/had better players or a better team than Barca.
He doesn't really now where to go now with his arguments and got cornered. On the one hand he says that CL results doesn't matter, but last years results seem to matter above everything else. Better just ignore him.
Do they though?
Filipe Luis - Godin - Gimenez - Juanfran is a top defense. Saul, Koke, Gabi, Thomas, Augusto Fernandez, is a solid and industrial midfield. Only their offense bar Griezmann are not top class like Gaitan, Gameiro, Torres etc. Atletico have reached 2 CL-finals in 3 years and actually gave Barca a run for their money last season in the title-race.
I guess, you're right.
They are a unit just like Dortmund was, just able to hold onto their players better. I do think that as a unit, they are a superior team to Chelsea.
This is highly debatable. Those 3 above may have the odd star player more than Atletico, but if you look at the whole squad, it's a lot less obvious than you're painting it
You make it sound as it was an easy thing to pull off. It's not only tactics, it's years of building a team that grows organically until everyone knows what the other does without thinking.
Building a top squad is more than just slinging vast amounts of money around and think an ensemble of individuals will do the trick.
It's not right that players mean nothing. They are important, but a good manager and good tactics are more important. United and Chelsea just got new (very good) managers, they have better players, they are starting to evolve really good tactics, so how can you say they are a worse team then Atletico? With players you always have a certain potential, and if Mourinho/Conte can reach that potential, they are better teams.
My City claim is not really serious - it's more because most people in here rate some CL results oh so much. In all honesty, they are not better then Barca, but better then Atletico, yes.
Bullshit. Mentioning last years results is a reaction to the over-importance some Bayern fans are putting into some CL results. A thrashing, like Bayern got it from Barca and Real though that tells something.
De Gea and Courtois are better then Oblak (close one)
Shaw and Azpilicueta are better then Filipe Luis
Bailly, Kompany, Stones and Otamendi are better then Gimenez.
Valencia is comparable to Juanfran.
Yes, Atletico has a top defense, comparable to English ones
CM:
Kante and Matic are miles better then Gabi/Fernandez..Koke had not the best of seasons. Let's see.
City has a weakspot there. Worse
Well we have more class with Pogba, and loads of options with Herrera, Fellaini, Schneiderlin..
Griezmann is world class, but compared to Agüero, Sterling, Kevin de Bruyne or Ibrahimovic, Martial, Rashford, Rooney, Lingard, Mata, Micky the rest of the Atletico offense looks a class below.
No, it's surely not easy. But it doesn't neccessarily take "years", a good manager can achieve this in one season. We will learn enough next season, when Chelsea and we are back in the CL...i'd advise, we stop this discussion for now, save it in the calendar, and look at it again in 1,5 years...then we'll definitely see who was closest to reality.
Come on guys, don't let one person ruin this thread..
It's difficult to imagine a Bayern fan being more ill-informed than you are. And I actually think that the majority of Bayern fans are stupid idiots.
PL teams rely in this "if" since years in europe
Sorry but ifs and theoretical bla cant hide the fact that Atletico achieved a lot in the past years, while your "theoretical worldclass teams" got nothing.Senseless discussion. BTW this is "the Bundesliga thread":
You know where all this started? With my post that Bayern is not neccessarily the 3rd best club in Europe. It was a completely normal analysation of the current situation. Now, look at the reaction from some Bayern fans, and what avalanche that started...tells enough
nonsense...Chelsea won the CL, in the past years, just like Bayern..while being 6th in the league btw. City got into the semi's last year, just like Bayern. While having an abysmal season. I can't see any "if"PL teams rely in this "if" since years in europe
I don't think you understand what you actually wrote or what reaction you got. It's also funny how you ignore in this context the responses of fans of other clubs who actually despise Bayern and who told you that your argument is stupid. But yeah, it's all the Bayern fans.
*sigh*
There quite a few people who rate Felipe Luis as one the best LBs in world right now. Not sure what the others have achieved so far to consider them being better
Based on what? That they play for big english clubs now?
Again, based on what? And why do you factor Koke's supposedly not so great season in, when Matic was utter dogshit last season? What about Saul?
For someone who claims to be so well versed in international football, you rely a little too much on completely subjective 1to1 player comparisons to determine which club is stronger
In the past decade there wasn't a single team which rose to the very top from nowhere within a year. I wonder why
All Bundesliga fans. Of course they have to defend Bayern - letting Bayern look like the odd PL team, it would let the league look a lot weaker. Strange that not a single person from another country said anything against it...i wonder anyway, what are normal Bundesliga viewers looking for in a ManUnited Forum? Trying to proselytize people about how good Bayern and the Bundesliga are? I wouldn't even think about joining a Forum from another club. Even funnier that apparently only Germans are active in this thread...you could just start it in any other Forum, or start your own one, because other people are just not interested in this
Others actually were interested in this when it was a thread about performances and players and not a dick waving contest with idiots coming in and making extreme claims regarding the quality without actually discussing the matches. The huge influx of German posters over the last 2 years has turned the Bundesliga threads in the same annoying shit we regularly have in all German football boards. Pretty much what I ran away from when I joined the Caf. And you clearly fit perfectly into the sad development with the nonsense you posted so far in here.
Filipe Luis was at Chelsea, didn't get past Azpi, can't get clearer then that.
Watching live games
Based on watching live games, just like scouts, or people creating FM database do it as well. I factor Matic's bad season in, but Kante makes a huge difference..no CM player from Atletico coming close to his impact on a team. Saul, forgot about him. Decent player. But not better then the options City, us, or Chelsea have in that position.
I already said, i don't determine a team on it's individual players. All explained in other posts. This is only about 1v1 comparison, so i don't get your point.
Depends on what you call "nowhere". ManUnited and Chelsea, even not playing CL this year, would hardly be called "coming from nowhere".
Ok. If that post is a serious one from you, then please move on to the La Liga thread or elsewhere and ruin it. If you not interested in talking about Bundesliga teams,games and stuff, please leave the people alone who are interested in.
Both were dogshit last year and as of now, there's no possible indicator for them to have improved. This really is stupid. All of the big teams of the last 10 years needed at least 3 years to be build, wether it was Real, Barcelona, Atletico, Bayern, Dortmund......
I was trying to, with the first point i made. But the Bayern/Bundesliga defence army burried it. Anyway, i am out of this discussion. Regarding the strengths of Bayern in comparison to PL teams, i come back in 1,5 years..be prepared to be quoted, anyone who dismissed my points, saying that they (City, United, Chelsea) are comparable to Bayern
Back to topic: I also just can say how good or bad Wolfsburg will be. Iam tending to say they will finish midtable or below cause the team is ruined. They lost a lot of players, but Kuba f.e is not a bad transfer, Kruse can also be helpfull. ?
What do fans from Real, Barca, Juve, PSG, Benfica, Porto, Sporting, or all other PL clubs, Pool included here?
Some people might have a broader horizon, and want to discuss football with other fans outside their favorite club/leagues? And yeah, weird that a thread about the german league has so many active german posters in it. I wonder why?
As for the bolded part, that's actually funny considering *you* felt the need to come in here and enlighten us about your perceived reality, despite you are not interested at all in it
Dude come down from your horse. These days players only choose BPL clubs over teams like Atletico and Dortmund because of the money, and nothing else. If it wasn't for the money, probably 8/10 neutral players would join the other 2 because they have better teams(!) and have been much more sucessful in the past few years.
If you splash so much money at the players, of course you can sign them. Even from clubs like Bayern, Barca and Real in the long run. So yeah, soon everyone will lose (some of) their best players to the PL teams. Because the PL is plastique.
Kudos to you for attempting to revive this disaster of a thread. And Gladbach looked good against Leverkusen.
I came here, because i wanted to bring in some feedback from someone, who doesn't primarily watch the Bundesliga, but watch leagues all over Europe. I am interested in the Bundesliga, just as La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1..PL of course. Watching football all over Europe. Pretty clear that most, not to say allmost all in this thread almost solely watch Bundesliga - it becomes plainly obvious, when you read the posts. I wanted to bring in something different - a view from a more neutral position. But it was definitely a mistake...saying anything, that could shed the Bundesliga into a light only slightly weaker, then most Germans/Bundesliga fans are wanting to see, you get attacked, and your comments get ridiculed..
If you don't want to have other, less nationalistic/nation proud comments, why bother to write in a forum from another coutry/team?!
And how is that a confirmation for your view? Luis delivered WC performances in the CL I haven't seen from Azpi at all. De Bruyne was a bench warmer at Chelsea. Doesn't say anything about his quality
Wow, bet you're the only person in the world with that privilige
Uh huh, now that I've reminded you
Because a season at Leicester surely invalidates what Atleticos players have proven on the highest level of club football.
You're just presenting your very own opinion as fact, fueled by the idea it might be more substantiated than that of others. Let me tell you something: It isn't.
Forgot how these 2 clubs have already made their mark in Europe again
This thread is for the Bundesliga season, take this discussion to a new thread if it really interests you.
Not entirely true. There is also the fact that the PL is the most popular and biggest league in the world, with the biggest exposure. For a lot of players who grew up watching that such thing matters. Also players are brands these days, it is no place in the world to build a football brand like the PL (see the Pogboom debacle for instance).
And yes, the PL is plastique, a league with that much money will inevitably be plastique. But you claiming that money is the only reason to ever join the PL is just a sign of the bitterness many BPL fans like you feel because you are entirely overshadowed by the PL. We see the same from Serie A fans.
One thing I will agree with you on though, when the players join from clubs like Bayern, Barca and Real it is for the money most likely, since those clubs at present represents a bigger chance for success. But not when they join from the likes of Dortmund and Atletico. But you are talking like Bayern, Barca, Real pay a pittance, they really don't, their best players are paid like the PL's best players. A better example of PL using it's money is signing the players a notch below on great salaries, as an example I think a lot of players would prefer to go to West Ham instead of Inter or Leverkusen, which they really shouldn't since both clubs are bigger than West Ham, but that is the money and exposure talking.
Anyway, won't discuss it anymore. This isn't a comparison thread, but a thread for you guys to discuss the BPL. Just couldn't let the bullshit above fly by though.