Bundesliga Gameweek 28 (COVID-19 discussion-free zone) | Featuring Dortmund v Bayern today at 17:30 UTC+1

[Samid]

Nordtveit is the absolutely worst player in any of the top 5 leagues. How does he keep getting games?

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Pathetic penalty again. Train them before you take them.

 

[Brightonian]

Just watching the Hertha-Leipzig game for kicks. I don't usually have time to watch much Bundesliga so I'd never even heard of Matheus Cunha before but he is fantastic. Caught my eye in all three games since the covid return. I'm surprised Leipzig sold him, and that it wasn't someone like Dortmund buying (especially knowing that this summer or next they'll lose Sancho).

Bundesliga fans, am I wide of the mark here?

 

[do.ob]

Just watching the Hertha-Leipzig game for kicks. I don't usually have time to watch much Bundesliga so I'd never even heard of Matheus Cunha before but he is fantastic. Caught my eye in all three games since the covid return. I'm surprised Leipzig sold him, and that it wasn't someone like Dortmund buying (especially knowing that this summer or next they'll lose Sancho).

Bundesliga fans, am I wide of the mark here?

The talent is more than obvious so he probably has some issues when it comes to mental attributes or consistency.

 

[Acrobat7]

Of the first five only Bayern won..

This.
Yes, Bayern has more money. Yes, Bayern has better players. But the other clubs lack consistency and simply waste too many points

 

[do.ob]

This.
Yes, Bayern has more money. Yes, Bayern has better players. But the other clubs lack consistency and simply waste too many points

Maybe having more money, better players and a deeper squad might be correlated with more consistent performances. But I'm just wildly guessing here.

 

[Brightonian]

This.
Yes, Bayern has more money. Yes, Bayern has better players. But the other clubs lack consistency and simply waste too many points

True, although that could just as easily be expressed: Bayern has more money therefore Bayern has better players therefore the other clubs can't match Bayern's consistency.

EDIT: Dammit @do.ob

 

[Acrobat7]

Maybe having more money and better players might be correlated with consistent performances. But I'm just wildly guessing here.

Of course better players are expected to perform more consistent. But that does not explain Leverkusen getting slaughtered by Wolfsburg, Gladbach not being able to win against a horrible Bremen team and Leipzig not winning against Hertha.

 

[do.ob]

Of course better players are expected to perform more consistent. But that does not explain Leverkusen getting slaughtered by Wolfsburg, Gladbach not being able to win against a horrible Bremen team and Leipzig not winning against Hertha.

What else explains it? Do you think these clubs don't want to win and make top4? I mean Dortmund sure fecked up their tactics at the beginning of the season, but Gladbach, Leverkusen and Leipzig probably have as good a coach as they can afford. On the other hand how many times did Lewandowski bail Bayern out at the beginning of the season?

 

[Maluco]

Of course better players are expected to perform more consistent. But that does not explain Leverkusen getting slaughtered by Wolfsburg, Gladbach not being able to win against a horrible Bremen team and Leipzig not winning against Hertha.

It probably does to be fair. Those sides performances rest on several big players that they are built around. If even one or two have bad games and aren’t on song, they can easily lose a game.

Leverkusen will have to cope without Havertz next season and Dortmund will probably lose Sancho. They get weaker and have to rebuild all the time.

Bayern just get stronger and do their part to weaken the opposition. Their performances don’t rest around 3-4 excellent players because they have 20 of them that they only sell when they are done.

 

[Blackwidow]

What else explains it? Do you think these clubs don't want to win and make top4? I mean Dortmund sure fecked up their tactics at the beginning of the season, but Gladbach, Leverkusen and Leipzig probably have as good a coach as they can afford. On the other hand how many times did Lewandowski bail Bayern out at the beginning of the season?

I know that that is often used - but somehow mentality for me seems to be important, too. Because for me that is the main difference between the Bayern teams from before 2012 (they always had more money and should have each year) and the team since. That Müller guy after 8 championships and that Kimmich after 4 or 5 are still hungry for more... 10 years ago after a CL match they often would be lazy in the weekend Bundesliga match away against a minor - that seldom happens today.

And the difference between the mentality of the players at Bayern and elsewhere in the league. When a team wins against Bayern you can count on a loss or even a losing streak the weeks after...
I still remember the season after the World Cup when Müller and Robben (until his injury in March) were having a fantastic season - a Hummels was overweight and had an off-year.

 

[Pep's Suit]

Maybe having more money, better players and a deeper squad might be correlated with more consistent performances. But I'm just wildly guessing here.

This! It's like when every BVB manager is 'bad' every time they lose points but that team is not build to win 28+/34. What happens this summer? They lose Hakimi and Sancho and have to somehow replace them. Then next year they lose Haaland then Reyna then some other players. They just can't be as consistent as Bayern.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Of course better players are expected to perform more consistent. But that does not explain Leverkusen getting slaughtered by Wolfsburg, Gladbach not being able to win against a horrible Bremen team and Leipzig not winning against Hertha.

It kind of does. Also individual results are completely meaningless but over the course of a season you'd expect Leverkusen, Gladbach and Leipzig to drop more points in these kind of games than Bayern. That seems pretty obvious.

 

[strongwalker]

True, although that could just as easily be expressed: Bayern has more money therefore Bayern has better players therefore the other clubs can't match Bayern's consistency.

Yep and that money fell from heaven.

 

[Brightonian]

Yep and that money fell from heaven.

Hey I wasn't weighing in for or against, just pointing out that those things are connected. It's probably especially sapping to that winning mentality when the big club that wins the league every season buys your players any time they get really really good.

 

[strongwalker]

Hey I wasn't weighing in for or against, just pointing out that those things are connected. It's probably especially sapping to that winning mentality when the big club that wins the league every season buys your players any time they get really really good.

Like who? Pavard?

lets have a fact check, shall we.

Trransfers in FC Bayern 2009/10-2019/20: https://www.transfermarkt.de/fc-bayern-munchen/transferstroeme/verein/27
Trransfers in BVB 2009/10-2019/20: https://www.transfermarkt.de/borussia-dortmund/transferstroeme/verein/16

FCB: players in from Bundesliga Clubs in 10 years; 22
BVB: players in from Bundesliga Clubs in 10 years: 27

-included are transfers BVB->FCB (3) and FCB->BVB (4)

BVB squad players transferred from league competitors: Hummels, Götze, Brandt, Bürki, Schulz, Dahoud, Hitz, Wolf, Toprak
FCB squad players transferred from league competitors: Pavard, Lewandowski, Goretzka, Süle, Cuisance

..so, FCB weakened direct competitors VFB Stuttgart (Player hiresd on release clause, club relegated while player was still there), BVB (Player at end of contract and wanting out), Gladbach (Player surplus to req), leaves us with Süle (Hoffenheim)and Goretzka (Schalke) in what, 4 years.
I recon BVB was the much, much bigger Bundesliga talent drain recently.

 

[Sayros]

I know that that is often used - but somehow mentality for me seems to be important, too. Because for me that is the main difference between the Bayern teams from before 2012 (they always had more money and should have each year) and the team since. That Müller guy after 8 championships and that Kimmich after 4 or 5 are still hungry for more... 10 years ago after a CL match they often would be lazy in the weekend Bundesliga match away against a minor - that seldom happens today.

And the difference between the mentality of the players at Bayern and elsewhere in the league. When a team wins against Bayern you can count on a loss or even a losing streak the weeks after...
I still remember the season after the World Cup when Müller and Robben (until his injury in March) were having a fantastic season - a Hummels was overweight and had an off-year.

You're completely right, hell even Dortmund's Delaney pretty much said that Dortmund don't know how to win; their problem is mentality, it's certainly not talent. It's part of the problem with being a club that's famous for getting good young players and developing them, you also have to go through the developing of a winning mentality and usually whenever one gets close to being able to get this team to win, they get sold to the team that always ends up beating them or another club in Europe. I think eventually they'll luck into a title someday, with Bayern falling apart for a season maybe, but they're never going to be consistent contenders with that philosophy IMO.

 

[PedroMendez]

You're completely right, hell even Dortmund's Delaney pretty much said that Dortmund don't know how to win; their problem is mentality, it's certainly not talent. It's part of the problem with being a club that's famous for getting good young players and developing them, you also have to go through the developing of a winning mentality and usually whenever one gets close to being able to get this team to win, they get sold to the team that always ends up beating them or another club in Europe. I think eventually they'll luck into a title someday, with Bayern falling apart for a season maybe, but they're never going to be consistent contenders with that philosophy IMO.

Dortmund is also almost guaranteed to qualify for CL, while also being a fair bit behind Bayern. As long as they don't challenge Bayern, they are in a very pleasant comfort zone. Nobody really expects that they catch Bayern, while they don't have to play consistently at 100% to qualify for the CL. Even when things fall apart, they have enough individual quality to get them over the line for 4th. Last season, they were 7 points ahead after 20 games. There was still a lot of football to play and it is still very tough to finish top, but at that point anything anything but winning the league has to be a massive disappointment. My feeling is, that neither management or players were all too perturbed and made excuses; finishing 2nd is all one can ask for. There was no "holy shit, we fecked up".

The team doesn't seem to be comfortable to be in this position. Higher expectation and the added pressure really seems to affect the team (in league or CL). I thought that the last CL round against PSG highlighted this again. PSG were favorites but Dortmund was the much better team in the first leg and won. They perform well without pressure. They went into the second leg as favorites and didn't perform anywhere near their best. It looked like they all had some weights strapped to their backs. Its not the talents "chocking", but everyone, including their leaders, dropping their head. Yes, everyone is disappointed for a day or two, but afterwards its just accepted. Who could blame them - PSG have oil money and can afford to buy superstars. No big deal. Thats just a single game, but I think it highlights the problem quite well. Its fine to hold Favre accountable, but he is only a one piece of the puzzle. The players and everyone else in the club share the responsibility for it.

If Leipzig manages to finish ahead of them (=threatens their status as #2), we'll see their attitude change rapidly. Hiding behind "Bayern Munich is just too rich and too big" is convenient, easy and there is also some truth to it. Explaining why any other club can do that, is a lot harder.

 

[Sayros]

Dortmund is also almost guaranteed to qualify for CL, while also being a fair bit behind Bayern. As long as they don't challenge Bayern, they are in a very pleasant comfort zone. Nobody really expects that they catch Bayern, while they don't have to play consistently at 100% to qualify for the CL. Even when things fall apart, they have enough individual quality to get them over the line for 4th. Last season, they were 7 points ahead after 20 games. There was still a lot of football to play and it is still very tough to finish top, but at that point anything anything but winning the league has to be a massive disappointment. My feeling is, that neither management or players were all too perturbed and made excuses; finishing 2nd is all one can ask for. There was no "holy shit, we fecked up".

The team doesn't seem to be comfortable to be in this position. Higher expectation and the added pressure really seems to affect the team (in league or CL). I thought that the last CL round against PSG highlighted this again. PSG were favorites but Dortmund was the much better team and won. They perform well without pressure. That went into the second leg as favorites and didn't perform anywhere near their best. It looked like they all had some weights strapped to their backs. Its not the talents "chocking", but everyone, including their leaders, dropping their head. Yes, everyone is disappointed for a day or two, but afterwards its just accepted. Who could blame them - PSG have oil money and can afford to buy superstars. No big deal. Thats just a single game, but I think it highlights the problem quite well. Its fine to hold Favre accountable, but he is only a one piece of the puzzle. The players have and everyone else in the club share the responsibility for it.

If Leipzig manages to finish ahead of them (=threatens their status as #2), we'll see their attitude change rapidly. Hiding behind "Bayern Munich is just too rich and too big" is convenient, easy and there is also some truth to it. Explaining why any other club can do that, is a lot harder.

Yeah, that makes sense how they could see themselves being comfortable in a position where there's never going to be an outrage if they don't deliver.

It's funny you mention PSG, because I believe the teams have a similar issue with mentality. They are like Bayern in the French league, but in Europe they face the same issues you described. Obviously PSG is on a different level financially or in the types of players they attract, but it's only to highlight how important mentality is. Like the example you mentioned, PSG will also go into big clashes and have a great first game and fall apart in the return leg. This year was the first time in a long time that they turned the tide, at least for the first KO round, but no matter how many talented and great players you have, if there isn't a winning mentality from your key players, it's not going to work.
One interesting difference is that PSG is very much pressured to win the CL, it's all that matters to them at this point and it hasn't really seemed to help the players. So while Dortmund is not under as much pressure, who knows if holding the players more accountable will change anything or maybe make things even worse?

 

[do.ob]

Dortmund is also almost guaranteed to qualify for CL, while also being a fair bit behind Bayern. As long as they don't challenge Bayern, they are in a very pleasant comfort zone. Nobody really expects that they catch Bayern, while they don't have to play consistently at 100% to qualify for the CL. Even when things fall apart, they have enough individual quality to get them over the line for 4th. Last season, they were 7 points ahead after 20 games. There was still a lot of football to play and it is still very tough to finish top, but at that point anything anything but winning the league has to be a massive disappointment. My feeling is, that neither management or players were all too perturbed and made excuses; finishing 2nd is all one can ask for. There was no "holy shit, we fecked up".

The team doesn't seem to be comfortable to be in this position. Higher expectation and the added pressure really seems to affect the team (in league or CL). I thought that the last CL round against PSG highlighted this again. PSG were favorites but Dortmund was the much better team in the first leg and won. They perform well without pressure. They went into the second leg as favorites and didn't perform anywhere near their best. It looked like they all had some weights strapped to their backs. Its not the talents "chocking", but everyone, including their leaders, dropping their head. Yes, everyone is disappointed for a day or two, but afterwards its just accepted. Who could blame them - PSG have oil money and can afford to buy superstars. No big deal. Thats just a single game, but I think it highlights the problem quite well. Its fine to hold Favre accountable, but he is only a one piece of the puzzle. The players and everyone else in the club share the responsibility for it.

If Leipzig manages to finish ahead of them (=threatens their status as #2), we'll see their attitude change rapidly. Hiding behind "Bayern Munich is just too rich and too big" is convenient, easy and there is also some truth to it. Explaining why any other club can do that, is a lot harder.

You appear to have missed the media pressure on Favre after missing the title last season and Watzke expressing the wish to win the league last summer. Their attitude also changed some time ago on the transfer market, signing 30 year olds like Witsel and Hummels to trade off resale value for short term ambition, or even signings like Hazard, Can, Delaney and Schulz, who won't have much value at the end of their contracts either.




Schalke thus far with 18% possession.. At home... Against Werder... One of the prime candidates for direct relegation...