Can we stop blaming managers and start looking at the real problem?

[haram]

There's more than enough blame to go around, even match going fans arent exempt of blame.

?

 

[Treble]

We've comfortably out spent Liverpool since Fergie retired, so the real problem has a lot to do with how we spend money and managers are a significant part of that.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Louis van Gaal was hamstrung by the board?
Seriously, the money he had spent on bang average players was absolutely inexcusable, he should’ve been sacked in Dec of 2015.

Mourinho was backed plenty too, up until his last window.

The Glazers fecked us over during the SAF era the most, we should’ve bought players like D.Silva and Aguero, instead of shite “value” signings.

He finished second with our crappy team, we won the europa league and Woodward gave him a huge contract then decided not to let Jose build on that second place finish by not backing him when he needed it most. Then he was sacked.

 

[Jim Beam]

We've comfortably out spent Liverpool since Fergie retired, so the real problem has a lot to do with how we spend money and managers are a significant part of that.

Or our recruitment process sucks. Especially when we are jumping from one manager with different ideas to another.

 

[Q80]

Every manager that comes in has their own philosophy and how to work with certain players of different calibre. Moyes was different to LVG who was different to Mourinho who are all different to Ole. Sacking managers every 1 - 2 years, not backing them in transfer windows, signing players that look good on paper only is the very definition of an unstable ship. If anyone of you was asked "Whats the modern MUFC all about?" you'd get a 100 different answers! We've lost our proverbial soul as a club and our identity, and even though Ole is inexperienced (and infuriating for sticking with Young) some of his transfers actually made sense.

• Get rid of expensive, dead wood.
• Buy young hungry players who care more about the badge than the cheque
• Bleed in youth from the reserves
• Mix in some established experience

He's nowhere near there yet, nor is the situation as dire as some people make it seem. This new look united need stability and some solid football above all things in order to achieve longterm success, which will subsequently win the fans back. In an old fashioned sense - the team needs frigging time.

 

[RooneyLegend]

?

Their docile behaviour is doing us no favours.

 

[WensleyMU]

We've comfortably out spent Liverpool since Fergie retired, so the real problem has a lot to do with how we spend money and managers are a significant part of that.

This is largely due to having 4 managers in that time, each different from the other and needing to start over.

 

[noodlehair]

Perfectly valid and actually very obvious to point out that the club is being run poorly above whoever the manager is. It's been done to death at this point though.

It also doesn't explain why a manager is using one of his most effective attacking players as a holding midfielder, why the team doesn't know how to mark opposition players, or why a collection of multi million pound professional footballers can't be taught how to take a corner properly.

It is fair to still expect a amanger to do the best they can with the situation they are given...and it's fair to question whether they are when the team show the same lack of understanding with the same aspects of performance from one game to the next.

 

[RedCoffee]

Can we prorogate this forum for a couple of seasons. People need to chill out and let the new manager build his team and philosophy without criticising every move.
There's no way we are catching Liverpool or City for the next couple of years so let them have their day in the sun. We will return and challenge but probably not this season or next.
Sit back, grab a beer and watch the new Manchester United unfold.

 

[stevoc]

The one consistent all through these dire 7 years, the people who single handedly destroy any momentum we might get.

They fecked over Moyes in the window with a display of incompetence never seen at this club. They then went and signed players the next manager didn't want. They then looked to have hot it right for once and then fecked over that manager by giving him nothing to build on our best period post Fergie.

We are constantly in a state of transition because managers are not being allowed to build a squad. They are getting a window or two at best and then the rug is swiftly pulled from beneath them.

Now Ole has been heavily restricted in the market and our squad looks laughably thin.

I am not defending each manager outright, but as a group. Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and now Ole have all been hamstrung by the owners and their lapdog. No manager, of any ability would succeed here, not any better than Jose did anyway because it's a case of one step forward, 3 steps back.

Sacking Ole just starts the process again. Nothing changes while they run the show.

That window was largely down to Moyes incompetence to be fair. The club was more than willing to spend a shit load of money, but Moyes dithered and couldn't decide who to spend it on.

 

[youmeletsfly]

1. Owners invested a shit ton of money in the last few years, what the feck are you on about? That's their job, to approve investment of money.
Of course they won't spend more now. If you want to blame someone blame Woody, but the owners invested money, jesus.

2. It's the managers that we hired in the last 7 years. Without a DOF we let managers identify players that they thought would fit their plans, big mistake.
Out of a billion spent we only got Pogba and Ander to show for as half decent signings.

That is a very very grim statistic that shows:
- absolute lack of transfer knowledge
- manager's inability to embed and improve new players

I might be a bit of a prick here, but in the last 7 years, can you think of a specific manager that vastly improved one of our players?

3. No DOF

Our issues are beyond ownership, deep in the overall structure and the direction the club is going from a sporting perspective.
It will fail over and over and over again until we hire a person with proven success in running a club on the football end. Once we do, we'll be able to:
- identify the proper players
- identify the proper managers
- breed the whole youth structure based on our own football principle and direction

4. Very average football training staff, at all age levels:

I was watching Betis yesterday and noticed their crisp passing and ability to stop the ball. Without blinking I can name 4-5 of our starting 11 that can't hit a 20 meter crisp pass or can't stop a fecking ball.
Also, our tactical know-how is absolutely shit. Just look at yesterday's game. Even with one extra man, our attacking plan was to crowd the left corner of the field and somehow get a cross in from there. That's bad management and players that lack adaptation skills.

TLDR: In my humble opinion, the vast issues are: no DOF, shit managers, very average core of players, poor training methods, poor tactics, poor technical skills from the players part.


The only faults I see in the owners are:
- letting woody run the club
- not hiring a good DOF
- approving huge contracts to the likes of Rashford, Sanchez and so on. 21 year olds shouldn't be on 200 KPW, 31 years olds shouldn't be on 400 KPW. Players should prove their worth for the club 1st and then be on massive money, not the other way around.

 

[TsuWave]

Having a piss poor manager seems like a real problem to me.

 

[Zaboot]

I just don't know who to blame and can see it getting worse. Even if it's a bad season can ole show the club is going in the right direction for the future, i doubt it. The players are not good enough currently and I don't see ole's coaching leading them in the right direction. If it gets to the stage the club is 10 points off top four he is gone. As long as he keeps within distance of top four his job is safe I think

 

[MikeKing]

Having a piss poor manager seems like a real problem to me.

Piss poor manager having to rely on piss poor players. That is relegation material if that is true. We'll see at the end of the season if that is in fact correct. I've honestly got no idea, but I really enjoy our play at times despite being heavily dissatisfied with our squad, and especially the performances of some of our players. The good thing is there is no where to hide, not for Ole, not for the players. For me, if Ole takes charge and are ruthless with the squad after learning a lot through this season then he is a strong manager and deserves the job. If he continues to trust players that are not performing like Lingard etc, he'll naturally not last at the club as he'll be exposed for being weak.

I'll fully support Ole up until that point. The squad is stripped down thin, they need support even though we know we'll naturally struggle to meet the general expectations at the club.

 

[Foxbatt]

No he has no idea how to coach a football team. Look at the way we play. How we defend set pieces. How we do at our set pieces. No tactics at all.

 

[Hammondo]

That window was largely down to Moyes incompetence to be fair. The club was more than willing to spend a shit load of money, but Moyes dithered and couldn't decide who to spend it on.

Basing that one what exactly?

 

[Random Task]

Having a piss poor manager seems like a real problem to me.

Should be used to it after the last 5 or 6 years.

 

[NewGlory]

Agree with op 100%. The one common denominator in all this is woody and the glazers. We could try every manager in football and nothing will change while these parasites run things.

Truth. We all know this, but nothing changes. Where do we go from here? It almost feels like United will need to hit rock bottom for something to change. Like: not making even top 10, all sponsors running away, or maybe even getting knocked down to championship. Parasites won't leave until there's blood to be sucked.

Honestly, the way we started this season - maybe indeed this season will be when we don't make top 10. But they will just blame it on Ole and his inexperience and start the whole thing again. What will sponsors do is what matters though. Will they still stick around or will they finally see that Woodward is an inapt partner for them and a sh*t executive of the club?

 

[NewGlory]

We have now reached a point where our problems and the gap to City and Pool are so big that it will take several years to catch up.

This "several years to catch up" B.S. is a very convenient excuse when things are fecked. Problems United has right now has nothing to do with "long term rebuild". Stop comparing to Liverpool and City, we aren't competitive even in top 6 and probably won't finish in top 6. There's no trajectory that this mess is going anywhere in several years or ever.

 

[stevoc]

Basing that one what exactly?

Reality mate. It’s well documented we made bids for Fabregas, Baines, Fellaini. We would have pursued Ronaldo also if he hadn’t been in the final stages of agreeing a new contract.

Moyes himself confirmed we made a world record bid for Bale but he was too far down the road with Real.

Late in that window according to Moyes the club got tired of waiting for him to make up his mind so took over transfer target decisions and signed Fellaini for a higher fee than we could have signed him for a month earlier. There were also bids for Herrera, DeRossi, Khedira and others.

We signed Mata for a club record £38m that January. So no one with any knowledge of the facts can say Moyes wasn’t backed financially.

The window was a disaster primarily because Moyes dithered.

 

[redIndianDevil]

It's the manager's fault. Yes OGS had to deal with a shite transfer window but we lost to Palace at home and drew with 10-men Southampton.

You think Liverpool are playing like they do with Wijnaldum, Milner, Henderson midfield because they are world class creative midfielders? No they have a competent manager who coaches every part of their game daily. Give the Liverpool squad to OGS and they'd be utter crap too and vice versa give our side to Klopp, we'd play a lot better.

 

[Jimmy_Bond]

The biggest thing that had gone wrong at the club is clearly recruitment. Having spent over £700m post Fergie, we should be challenging for everything and have one of the best teams in the world.

The people responsible for that recruitment have primarily been Woodward, LVG and Mourinho. The lion's share of the blame has to go to them.

You can blame the Glazers as well for not putting the correct structure in place, but I think the money that has been made available for transfers in the last 6 years has been more than reasonable. I suspect the recent restrictions have been down to "no more until you ease that incredibly bloated wage bill from which we are getting no return."

Will the same mistakes be made going forward with recruitment? The answer to this will dictate the next decade or so for the club.

 

[Bestietom]

A new manager would mean more money spent on his philosophy, and the players that we have brought in by Ole will probably be sold. This is what has happened since Fergie retired in 2013, which is why we have spent so much trying to build a team to compete.
If we carry on like this we will never get a strong team together to compete, and will just carry on fighting for a top 6 position. Give Ole time, and the board has to back him with the money to bring in the players of the kind he wants here.
The 3 we brought in this summer have proven to be good signings, but Woodward again broke his promise to replace players that moved on, like Herrera and Lukaku. This needs to be done in the next window. ( January). Our 63 scouts need to have these players set up and ready. There are plenty out there in other countries that would jump at the chance to come here.

 

[Buster15]

Shite flows down, the OP is spot on and the signs were there under Fergies reign

Yes they were. In his last few seasons we almost never beat a top team.
Sir Alex Ferguson was exceptional at building TEAMS and getting the very best out of his players. And of course we miss his ability so much.
Ole does need time and support even though I am not convinced he has the necessary attributes to turn the monolith that is United.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Don’t agree that the Glazers are the only problem, or even the biggest problem. Let’s not kid ourselves that we haven’t spent money since Fergie left because we have. Maybe not as much as some would want but I don’t think the Glazers have tied the managers hands in this regard. It’s the players we have bought that have been the issue and that the club is too keen to be seen as one that will give players chances to prove themselves even if it is blatantly obvious they are not going to be good enough. If we had replaced players like Smalling, Jones, Darmian, Rojo, Valencia, Young, Mata, Matic, Lingard and Bailly quick enough, when either we knew they wouldn’t be good enough or knew they had lost the ability that we bought them for we would have been in a much better position over the last 5-6 years. The biggest problem we have is we have only started to do that this year.

Who’s fault is that? Glazers, Woodwood, Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Solskjær or the players themselves. The answer is all of them to some extent. We have made a patchwork quilt of a squad due to many reasons, until that is resolved there is no way we are going to be challenging for the big honours. Reading some posters on here you would think we were relegation favourites, absolutely ridiculous. We are in a group of teams underneath Liverpool and Man City. Unfortunately for use two of the best run clubs in the world right now. They haven’t always been but again you would think they have been reading some on here. For a long time it was us and Arsenal, apart from about 4/5 teams in Europe every team goes through this, we were lucky not to for so long due to one man.

The club needs to right itself and the only way to do that is to do it together, it looks like we have a clearer plan now than we have in the last 6 years, by no means is it anywhere near compete but if it takes a year or two to get us in a good shape again, by that I mean a balanced squad of hungry players, some young some experienced, clear out the players who have been here too long and are stale now, reduce the wage bill to an acceptable level where incoming players can’t hold us to ransom, back a manger who agrees with this approach and not one that chases quick wins with irrational transfer strategies.

Don’t get me wrong, I find it hard watching us at times but for the first time in years I can see light at the end of the tunnel, but we have to stick with it or we will continue to go around like this. We are a work in progress with a very thin squad, let’s see where Ole gets us to this season, top 4 with this squad will be a massive achievement but a possible one if we all stick together.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We had a manager who wasn't good enough, a manager who was well past his best at the top level, a manager who has always imploded in his third season and now manager who is nowhere near proven at this level and realistically not good enough to manage a team in transition.

The Glazers have been shit but the idea that we would somehow have been more successful under these managers with proper backing and a better run club is stupid.

What we really need is the club to actually go and find a Klopp or Guardiola instead of pissing about with whatever flavour of the month is currently available.

 

[Bestietom]

Don’t agree that the Glazers are the only problem, or even the biggest problem. Let’s not kid ourselves that we haven’t spent money since Fergie left because we have. Maybe not as much as some would want but I don’t think the Glazers have tied the managers hands in this regard. It’s the players we have bought that have been the issue and that the club is too keen to be seen as one that will give players chances to prove themselves even if it is blatantly obvious they are not going to be good enough. If we had replaced players like Smalling, Jones, Darmian, Rojo, Valencia, Young, Mata, Matic, Lingard and Bailly quick enough, when either we knew they wouldn’t be good enough or knew they had lost the ability that we bought them for we would have been in a much better position over the last 5-6 years. The biggest problem we have is we have only started to do that this year.

Who’s fault is that? Glazers, Woodwood, Moyes, Van Gaal, Mourinho, Solskjær or the players themselves. The answer is all of them to some extent. We have made a patchwork quilt of a squad due to many reasons, until that is resolved there is no way we are going to be challenging for the big honours. Reading some posters on here you would think we were relegation favourites, absolutely ridiculous. We are in a group of teams underneath Liverpool and Man City. Unfortunately for use two of the best run clubs in the world right now. They haven’t always been but again you would think they have been reading some on here. For a long time it was us and Arsenal, apart from about 4/5 teams in Europe every team goes through this, we were lucky not to for so long due to one man.

The club needs to right itself and the only way to do that is to do it together, it looks like we have a clearer plan now than we have in the last 6 years, by no means is it anywhere near compete but if it takes a year or two to get us in a good shape again, by that I mean a balanced squad of hungry players, some young some experienced, clear out the players who have been here too long and are stale now, reduce the wage bill to an acceptable level where incoming players can’t hold us to ransom, back a manger who agrees with this approach and not one that chases quick wins with irrational transfer strategies.

Don’t get me wrong, I find it hard watching us at times but for the first time in years I can see light at the end of the tunnel, but we have to stick with it or we will continue to go around like this. We are a work in progress with a very thin squad, let’s see where Ole gets us to this season, top 4 with this squad will be a massive achievement but a possible one if we all stick together.

This is the 4th manager since Fergie retired, which is the reason why we have spent so much money. Every manager want their own players and this will go on and on if we keep changing the manager. Give Ole time to build and the board and Glazers should back him with the money to bring in the sort of player he wants here. If not, then be prepared to give the next manager millions more for new players, and a lot of them.

 

[Foxbatt]

Why should they even think that a manager who has no experience at all in managing a top club and who has no record of winning a trophy at a decent league is the one to manage in the most competitive league and the biggest club in the World?
He should never have been hired.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

This is the 4th manager since Fergie retired, which is the reason why we have spent so much money. Every manager want their own players and this will go on and on if we keep changing the manager. Give Ole time to build and the board and Glazers should back him with the money to bring in the sort of player he wants here. If not, then be prepared to give the next manager millions more for new players, and a lot of them.

My point exactly, we need to stick with Ole and stick with one plan to rebuild the club.

I’m probably in a minority but if we had stuck with Moyes for 6 yrs would we be in any worse a position? I don’t think so and I don’t think Moyes is a good manger. Simply give 1 manager the money we have spent in that time and we’d be in a better position than now.

 

[Shark]

When is Ed's 'tipping point moment' coming?... When's it coming?

When the club starts failing off the pitch.

 

[Ollie Derbyshire]

Why should they even think that a manager who has no experience at all in managing a top club and who has no record of winning a trophy at a decent league is the one to manage in the most competitive league and the biggest club in the World?
He should never have been hired.

Lots of managers with little experience or no big trophies have gone on to become excellent managers. Guardiola and Zidane come to mind. I’m sure there are plenty more.

 

[Shark]

My point exactly, we need to stick with Ole and stick with one plan to rebuild the club.

I’m probably in a minority but if we had stuck with Moyes for 6 yrs would we be in any worse a position? I don’t think so and I don’t think Moyes is a good manger. Simply give 1 manager the money we have spent in that time and we’d be in a better position than now.

Why do we need to stick with Ole? Look, Woodward is the main problem but you need to also hire a capable manager. Ole simply isn’t capable, that’s very clear now.

 

[Bestietom]

My point exactly, we need to stick with Ole and stick with one plan to rebuild the club.

I’m probably in a minority but if we had stuck with Moyes for 6 yrs would we be in any worse a position? I don’t think so and I don’t think Moyes is a good manger. Simply give 1 manager the money we have spent in that time and we’d be in a better position than now.

Exactly.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

When the club starts failing off the pitch.

There must be a dark secret that the Glazers are scared about coming out, and only trust Ed with knowing, so he has to be ruler of all at the club, as there is just no logic to allow him loose on the footballing side anymore, and hasn't been for a long time.

 

[Hammondo]

Reality mate. It’s well documented we made bids for Fabregas, Baines, Fellaini. We would have pursued Ronaldo also if he hadn’t been in the final stages of agreeing a new contract.

Moyes himself confirmed we made a world record bid for Bale but he was too far down the road with Real.

Late in that window according to Moyes the club got tired of waiting for him to make up his mind so took over transfer target decisions and signed Fellaini for a higher fee than we could have signed him for a month earlier. There were also bids for Herrera, DeRossi, Khedira and others.

We signed Mata for a club record £38m that January. So no one with any knowledge of the facts can say Moyes wasn’t backed financially.

The window was a disaster primarily because Moyes dithered.

I cannot find a quote anywhere where he says he bid for bale.

Do you have proof of the others apart from Fellaini?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

OP is right. Those who are now saying Ole isn't experienced enough. We had Mourinho the last three seasons, one of the most experienced managers out there and before that van Gaal for who goes the same, both proven winners, and they still both failed miserably due to our the Woody's incompetence.

Yep. Woodward and the Glazers are our biggest problem. The optimist in me hope's if we changed Woodward to a more competent person we could turn things around. However, he is very much just implementing what the Glazers want. Minimal investment t. Maximum profit. Any replacement would likely be tasked to do similar. This is probably why we haven't hired a DOF.

Ole is out of his depth but he has not been given the players he needs. He is a secondary problem. Given the right players he would've had half a chance of success. The strategic decisions made above him are terrible. They'd probably replace him with Sam Allardyce!

 

[Graham R]

The demise of this club started when a bunch of American asset strippers were allowed to take over using borrowed money. Ed Woodward was the chief architect of this “cunning plan”. He was rewarded with his role as chief puppet in charge. Since that day Man United changed from a football club to a international corporate investment. These people care not one jot for football just as long as the money continues to roll in. I can’t believe what a free pass these people get from fans. Mass protest actually is effective especially given the power of social media today. Why is Woodward not actively being booed when taking his seat at the very least? Why do supporters just roll their eyes and say there is nothing that can be done? OGS like previous managers will fail on the field because football is not the priority for those in charge . A net spend of £ 70 million this summer for a major rebuild tells fans all they need to know and puts our thin squad on a par with Everton, Leicester and Wolves. Woodward should be sent on work experience to Manchester City ,there he could learn how to build a successful football club which buys well and has clear vision. Sadly managers will continue to come and go until the Glazers and Woodward are persuaded to leave.

 

[Denis79]

Agree with the OP. Woodward/Glazers are responsible for the mess we are in but you have to understand that Ole isn't up to the job. It's plain as day. I won't turn on him because it's not entirely his fault, but he is responsible for the awful run of results. If the next 16 games are like the last we will be in the relegation zone. Is that what you really want?

Don't think we'll be in a relegation battle but I also don't believe we'll make top 4, maybe not even top 6. Ole has been blindsided by the Americans and Woody, it's going to be a tough, tough battle this season.

 

[haram]

Their docile behaviour is doing us no favours.

Match going fans should start bringing out banners or something?

 

[Andersonson]

We literally allowed Mourinho to make a world record signing when he first arrived and then to make one of the most expensive transfers of all-time in Lukaku as well. I like Maguire but the idea he alone would've had us mounting a title challenge (which should have been the expectation last season) is fairly silly.

You think on or two sigings would make us title contenders?

If city were to sell any of their players, they would be top ten most expensive. None of ours bar Pogba would go any where near that now that we've sold Lukaku.

Our squad ls so far behind City or Liverpool its unreal. If Jose was asking for more transfers its because he thought the current bunch couldnt compete - and he's right. The amount of players we need aint one or two. Its 4 or 5.

He coming 2nd was infact a very very good job by him.