Currently, there is no greater challenge in the world of football.
Casemiro | United Player
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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Unofficial Devil did it by accident, I think, and has been given a pretty hard time about it! Of course Casemiro will actually be 31 before he’s played 20 games for us so it’s not an outrageous exaggeration.
I did find it a bit strange to keep talking in Euros without using the Euro sign. Pounds sterling should be assumed if there is no currency sign, surely.
I guess it depends what you mean. They are not like Liverpool, more like City.
I don't think it was by accident.
Agreed! ETH is really calling them out for not fighting on the pitch.
We are missing a lot of character throughout the team. Desire is lacking. We have technically deficient players, players who lack game intelligence but when you have lazy bodies and lazy minds these problems are exacerbated. A lot of these deficiencies can be minimized with fight and desire.
We need better players, yes, but if these guys fight for their lives, we can get better results than our quality would suggest.
Jesus Christ it was by accident! I wouldn’t have a problem to admit exaggerating to prove a point. why is everybody so mean around here.
To be fair he tuned 30 like 5/6 months ago. Certain posters are skipping huge periods of time here!
Thank you. Yeah I should have used a currency sign, I was reading an article about the transfer in euro at the time.
Slandering Casemiro wasn't enough, you had to target all of us?
Great signing of a top class DM, a position we've sorely lacked for many years now. I still feel we're light in the middle though. A ball-playing technician to compliment Casemiro's game.
So people were crying when the Man Utd didn't sign additional players. And now people are crying when one of the best player in the world has been signed by the club.
This kind of rhetoric and negativity is baffling. Liverpool signed '29 soon to be 30' Thiago, everyone was raving about how good of a deal they made and how he will dominate the league. We sign 30 year old Casemiro, he's too old, he will decline, same old mistakes by the club, no vision.
So when you have technically deficient players then go and spend the money to bring in someone who would change that instantly
Im hopeful that he'll give us some much needed steel and leadership. He may be too old for some but its a position we have been unable to fill either through signings or home grown development for such a long time. There are few better so im quite excited, its nice to see a top calibre player wanting to join Utd despite he lack of Champions league football it shows he's up for a challenge, hopefully he will help expedite our return. Its a tough transfer market when all top recruits only want champions league and easy lives.
People are crying because we could have an unbelievable midfield with a technician next to him, instead Utd seem happy to let this situation just fizzle out and hope De Jong doesn't leave.
Maybe not, perhaps it was a little “creative rounding” but the moment I flagged it, Unofficial Devil apologised.
The point was a fair one as far as I’m concerned. If we recruited the way RM do (or as effectively as they do) we’d be in a much better state than we are now. Easier said than done, of course. And from a business perspective, they did well out of Casemiro - had many years of good service and made a good profit.
If we could get De Jong it would be our best midfield partnership since Keane and Scholes, nearly 20 years ago!
Casemiro seems like a good signing on the face of it but it doesn't sound like he is particularly well suited to playing in a high pressing team so it will be interesting to see if ETH is willing to adjust his system. Otherwise we potentially jave someone else who is relatively slow and lacking agility playing in front of maguire, quite far up the pitch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62603699
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62603699
Now the question becomes how long it takes us to buy an 8 good enough to partner him.
It's a style developed around players qualities, just like any successful team. This did happen though, most notably against Man City in the CL a few years back, a more recent example is the Atletico game they lost 1-0 from the end of the season before last. Casemiro was hounded with the ball and it's part of the reason he's intentionally hidden from first phase play where Kroos takes up the role (and they almost invert their midfield dropping both Kroos and Modric behind Casemiro against high press teams).
Getting the ball to another deep midfielder after a turnover in possession isn't breaking the press, which is what Casemiro does when he wins the ball. He gives it to Kroos or Modric who are the ones who beat the press. We don't have that type of player.
"That's just style" is such a superficial analysis, it's "style" because players have strengths and weaknesses and Casemiro is one of the best DM's in the world because Real Madrid play to his strengths and have two midfielders who specialise in negating his weaknesses. Just like Kante needs a Jorginho or a Drinkwater holding ball progresser next to him to truly excel, Casemiro needs a similar player next to him to play his game and not be exploited. We don't have that and some ball playing defenders aren't a solution unless your plan is to play like Brazil with a low block and play over the midfield to the wide players. That's a very negative way of playing for a club side.
Is FDJ available?
The reason I like Rice so much is his character. His character is the reason he is able to perform so effectively. You know his story, he was cut loose at least once during his development but applied every atom of his being to improvement and maximising his performance.
Casemiro seems to have a similar character. We need more guys like him.
Getting the balance of the team right is still going to be tricky and we lack something at the sharp end. For now, I’ll take some clean sheets and a few scrappy wins.
Context matters, tbf.
If Casemiro had been ETH's prime midfield target at the start of the window and we quickly signed him, even at that high price, the transfer would have been better received.
Whereas when the same signing comes after chasing entirely different types of midfielders all summer, not signing players in other key positions, trying to sign relative dross like Rabiot and Arnautovic, losing badly in our opening two game and then amid that air of desperation signing Casemiro..... Well people then have more cause to be suspicious as to how well thought-through our recruitment approach actually is.
You compare it to the Thiago signing for example but that was made right after they had won the PL, a year after they had won the CL and all on the back of superb recruitment. A context that gives you far less reason to be suspicious of the rationale behind the signing and more chance of the signing being a success. Plus Thiago was quite a bit cheaper at £20-25m.
Frankly after a decade of failure, I think it's pretty fair that our club isn't given any benefit of the doubt when it comes to signings. Until there's actually proven to be an improvement in our approach, people should be sceptical.
The age problem is understandable from an investment point of view but not a sporting one.
Whether he fails or is a success will not be about his age, it will be about how we use him and how he settles. These problems exist at any age. We’ve seen first hand proof of that over the last ten years.
The questions on him shouldn’t be about age rather than if he’s the right fit for the team. I think he is
Whether he fails or is a success will not be about his age, it will be about how we use him and how he settles. These problems exist at any age. We’ve seen first hand proof of that over the last ten years.
The questions on him shouldn’t be about age rather than if he’s the right fit for the team. I think he is
Yeah that's a very fair point actually
Surely we wouldn't have chased him until late this week if he hadn't been available, however you are right about getting some clean sheets and scrappy wins to get belief
The funniest thing about Ballague’s teary article is his criticism of Casemiro is he’s a ‘consistent 8 out of 10 player but not a match winner’. He’s a fecking DM, I’d take 8/10 every week every time!
Ballague’s more of a gossip columnist than a football expert.
It's £60m+10m though, and these addons are usually a formality unless stated otherwise (Martial's Ballon d'Or clause etc.)
But it's not just a historical anomaly. Kante has clearly dropped his level in recent years as his legs have gone as has Gueye. Deep lying playmakers like Fernandinho and Carrick aren't the same as ball winning midfielders like Casemiro or Kante, they rely on acceleration and physicality more because they're inherently higher risk players.
Age plays a critical role in players adaptability though, it's foolish to just ignore it.
It’s probably an unnecessarily crass way to put it, I don’t think he’s lazy or unprofessional as such, and I don’t think he was like Rashford last season with a complete lack of drive or belief. I just think he’s a bit of a fair weather player. Brilliant when you’re in a team that has lots of hunger, self belief and is filled with leaders elsewhere, but not someone to pull you out of a hole or inspire others.
I think you can see on the pitch he doesn’t feel the pain of the losses. He knows he’s good, he knows he’s achieved all he needs to in his career, he’s not going to demand more from the rest he’s just going to do his thing and be ready when the other folks up their level. I really think he needs someone like Casemiro or Ramos alongside him, another winner who demands more of others, and he can rise to those challenges. He’s not someone who feels compelled to raise the bar himself.
You need both kinds, I just think we had too few winners for him to bring the right balance to the team. Lisandro has the right spirit so now it’s a question of building up that credibility and relationship. Malacia has the right energy too. Hopefully Casemiro will like the challenge of being the one to inspire them.
Totally. Laziness is definitely a big part of it for me and it goes way beyond an acceptable degree, but you do also have to recognise the lack of self belief.
They didn’t fight because they didn’t have the effort, but they also didn’t fight because they just started believing the fight was always a losing one, and from all angles. We’ve all been there before where the environment isn’t good, you look around for inspiration and all you find is infighting and no shared idea on how to solve it, and no matter how much you want to, after a while you can’t muster up the desire to overcome all of it. It just feels bigger than you.
I don’t think it’s really possible for Casemiro or Ronaldo to fall into that trap. They know the heights they can reach as individuals and they know what a team needs to get there. Whether they build everyone back up or they just form a clique of winners vs. losers will depend a lot on whether we pick up momentum and Ten Hag’s style bears fruit. But it’ll also require a lot of careful man management, which I gather isn’t his strong point?
Whatever the case I’m pretty excited to see if he can shift the mentality of the side. Like you say, just a bit of desire could move this team forward a lot. They’re really selling themselves short right now
Look who has written the article. Its the Spanish Jamie Redknapp, he's a fool.
it certainly seems that way. Maybe some people are worried that it could be another Di Maria, or wondering why Madrid would sell one of their supposedly best players. They may also be asking why a player like that would leave the current European champs to come to A team that’s struggling from top to bottom without CL football. As for me, I’m happy he’s here. A great signing but I can understand peoples worries as we’ve been bitten before.
You make a good point about strategy being inconsistent and how it's natural to be sceptical as fans, but at the same I don't think there's anything wrong with changing your strategy when confronted with reality.
I think ETH realised after the first two games that we really need some steel in midfield having been introduced to the PL and watching our midfield getting schooled by mediocre sides.
They then went out and got the best experienced defensive midfielder around. I don't see anything wrong with that.
Ten Hag and much of the recruitment team are new on the job and for the manager it's a new league and will need to adapt initially and that's what I see this as.
Thats a good example though, they signed Thiago one of the best in the world 30 years of age for 20m euro (according to transfermarkt) we also sign one the best in the world at 30 but for 70m euro. (Also according to transfermarkt). All I was saying is I would rather we spent big on younger players.
Wondering who I should give a call to first...
Gutted he wasn't signed in time for Monday, would have been some place to start his Utd career
Now this is a signing I can get behind! Don't worry about his age, the man is very intelligent and a great player. For instance, Casemiro is 30. When Xabi Alonso arrived at Bayern he was 34. And Xabi Alonso went on to play 2 or 3 great seasons at Bayern that made it to the semifinals every year if I remember correctly, only getting beaten by Atletico Madrid and Real Madrid. And you've surely just witnessed Fernandinhos impact at City between 30-35. But then again, some players like Schweinsteiger are shot past 30 so you never know for sure.
At the same time you can't and shouldn't request Casemiro to do the running as if he was 23. He can be a leader, a defensive shield, a director on the pitch, a solid passer. Xabi Alonso was a turtle at Bayern but he was also perhaps the most intelligent player in all of world football so he played quarter back mixing short and long passes, directing his team mates and dropped down as a third centre half allowing the fullbacks to push up. Pep really used Xabi Alonso perfectly at that stage of his career. I imagine Casemiro can do much of the same - albeit not as good passing range - so you will likely see a 4-3-3 in defense but in offense you will play 3-4-3.
(For me the player all top clubs should have really signed in 2018 post WC was Wilmar Barrios. "Colombias Kanté" that reminded me very much of Luiz Gustavo. Aggressive like Arturo Vidal. If you look at his statistics for Zenit or Colombia during Copa America you'll notice he is perhaps the continents best DM even if he is lesser known. Also Ron de Paul played a blinder in 2021 but Simeone got him quickly, he was the true star of Argentina and not Messi.)
At the same time you can't and shouldn't request Casemiro to do the running as if he was 23. He can be a leader, a defensive shield, a director on the pitch, a solid passer. Xabi Alonso was a turtle at Bayern but he was also perhaps the most intelligent player in all of world football so he played quarter back mixing short and long passes, directing his team mates and dropped down as a third centre half allowing the fullbacks to push up. Pep really used Xabi Alonso perfectly at that stage of his career. I imagine Casemiro can do much of the same - albeit not as good passing range - so you will likely see a 4-3-3 in defense but in offense you will play 3-4-3.
(For me the player all top clubs should have really signed in 2018 post WC was Wilmar Barrios. "Colombias Kanté" that reminded me very much of Luiz Gustavo. Aggressive like Arturo Vidal. If you look at his statistics for Zenit or Colombia during Copa America you'll notice he is perhaps the continents best DM even if he is lesser known. Also Ron de Paul played a blinder in 2021 but Simeone got him quickly, he was the true star of Argentina and not Messi.)
Catchy in a way
I am not trying to compare the quality of the two players as Casemiro is head and shoulders more decorated as a player but when Thiago Alcantara was signed, he cost at least £50 million less in transfer fees and around £125,000 less in weekly wages (I didn't bother double-checking). That's a lot of money if you factor in the entire length of the contract. Also, Thiago was 1-2 years younger.
The comparison between these players makes zero sense to me. Liverpool, the penny-pinchers, and United, the extravagant spenders, cannot be compared.
As someone rightly said, it is the Glazers' money, so why bother?
Probably the money but that's absolutely fine in my book.
When you're in our situation you either convince top players with cash, or take a chance on young/unproven players to save a bit of money. I think a mix is what we need right now because if the manager is going to be able to achieve long term success, he's going to need results now.
Imagine how hard recruitment becomes (and how much more we'll have to overpay) if we end up finishing lower in the league than last season.
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