I was reading that Niemann looked up a specific line or opening before the game - he said he was just super lucky that he did.
The win pushed Niemann above 2700 too, was important for him. Wonder how this 'cheating' occurred.
Chess discussions
- Thread starter Danny1982
- Start date
The win pushed Niemann above 2700 too, was important for him. Wonder how this 'cheating' occurred.
According to Hikaru Hans has had a cloud of accusations around him for ages, at least 10 different GMs have suspected something.
Presumably could only be either knowing Magnus' opening in advance or somehow receiving information in-game through some sort of transmitter? Hikaru seemed to be implying the latter, talking about Hans taking unusually long on certain moves that he should have just blitzed out if he had prepped the opening.
Nepo also seems somewhat sceptical of Hans' win:
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
other than naka, has anyone said anything explicitly?
e - reddit unearthed this old video:
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentInspiringStorkCmonBruh
e - reddit unearthed this old video:
https://clips.twitch.tv/ConfidentInspiringStorkCmonBruh
Last edited:
Isn't this being played over the board?
How would he cheat there?
How would he cheat there?
Even if he's cheating he's still a pretty competent player on his own, so he'd only need very little information at a time and could probably figure out the rest on his own. So he'd have someone on the oudside watching the game and then another person close ot the players communicate tiny bits of information whichever way possible. Maybe there's some device you can get past a regular metal detector that can transmit morse code. Or you have a person that you share a simple code with - a la top button undone = move queen, scratch nose = move rook, etc.
No crowd I don't think
I still don't understand it though, if these are the best players around how can someone else help them?
Presumably their accomplice would be using a chess engine
Chess supercomputers are way smarter than the best players.
Just having a smart phone with an engine could be of great help, let alone an actual computer.
As others have said the smartest players aren't close to computers, Chess players use them to learn new tactics.
Every chess game played between these GMs is a unique one that has never been played before in chess recorded history at the top level. You have a new game on an average after just 8-12 moves which might sound surprising. These new games in the modern era are more or less a direct result of players going back and analyzing their games on chess engines which give you top 10 odd moves in any position along with the probability of you winning with each of the moves and the best lines you can play after each move.
Chess engines are now at a level where even if the top 3-5 greatest players of all time played together against a chess engine like stockfish, they would still lose 10/10 times.
Based on his interview, and the fact that Hans messed up the position once, doesn't it make more sense that it was a prep leak rather than someone feeding engine moves?
On some level you actually have to almost hope he's cheating, otherwise we have a young player performing the tournament of his life and getting cancelled for it.
Just saw it mentioned online that Kasparov once said all he'd need to cheat is some sort of signal that the position is particularly signficant. If he knew for sure there was a game tilting move in that position that he should spend time trying to find then he'd be confident he would find it.
On one hand this is true for every player: in chess puzzles you'll solve tactics that you'll completely miss in a live game. On the other hand I don't think you're going to cheat magnus by someone pointing out that one particular move is critical. You'll need to play the little moves precisely to ever get that far.
I think the insinuations are completely unfair and totally the wrong way to go about things.
For a start, there is a huge contradiction in that the Magnus tour have completely backed Hans as a young player, giving him invites that could have been awarded to any young talent. For example Nihal Sahin or Abdusattarov.
I'm sure they don't do it without some logical reason but to me it feels completely wrong. Magnus and Ian are top players and when they say something even without validation by sufficient analysis it tends to stick. I don't feel there is enough to say this, Hans is a talented player and the odd good game/prep can happen. It should have gone through official channels and been considered properly, not just utilising the weight of the world champ.
For a start, there is a huge contradiction in that the Magnus tour have completely backed Hans as a young player, giving him invites that could have been awarded to any young talent. For example Nihal Sahin or Abdusattarov.
I'm sure they don't do it without some logical reason but to me it feels completely wrong. Magnus and Ian are top players and when they say something even without validation by sufficient analysis it tends to stick. I don't feel there is enough to say this, Hans is a talented player and the odd good game/prep can happen. It should have gone through official channels and been considered properly, not just utilising the weight of the world champ.
Last edited:
Aronian is a sensible guy. Jump to 4 mins.
Cheers for the replies everyone, for some reason using a computer didn't even enter my head.
Good explanation. I do want to point out there's no "probability of winning" in chess. Chess is a game of absolute information. A position is always a forced win, loss or draw. The probability of winning depends on how well each human plays, which engines typically don't account for. The chess engine gives an evaluation, but the evaluation does not necessarily indicate a result.
Yea evaluation perhaps the more accurate and widely used word in the chess world. Probability in the sense, under the assumption both players make the best moves from then on.
Guilty or innocent, I'm just hoping Niemann does a Petrosian.
It's interesting how a chess genius doesn't have the smarts to get a lawyer/pr person/spokesman to proofread his garbage (or discuss a strategy on how to respond)
The issue with Hans is that while he is talented, he also has been flagged as a cheat online. Eric Hansen alluded to it, Nepo mentioned it quite brashly and he has been suspended by Chess.com in the past. So while I have no idea whether he cheated or not, he is one of the few GMs with question marks.
Innocent until proven guilty.
But it is very suspicious that he prepared for a line that Magnus has never played before in classical chess.
But it is very suspicious that he prepared for a line that Magnus has never played before in classical chess.
He's a cheat, that isnt questionable.
Whether he cheated this time or not is up for discussion as far as i can understand.
It seems to be some agreement that cheating was unlikely now but Magnus played poorly?
Whether he cheated this time or not is up for discussion as far as i can understand.
It seems to be some agreement that cheating was unlikely now but Magnus played poorly?
Yeah, apparently Magnus used a timid opening and seemingly mixed the order of moves and later he didn't play the draw accurately.
Magnus doesnt lose classical games.. that too with White..
Its a fantastic result for Hans.. Unless there is some actual reason to suspect foul play, this is all very sad..
Its a fantastic result for Hans.. Unless there is some actual reason to suspect foul play, this is all very sad..
The fact that Hans was caught cheating before, and this was widely known by his fellow competitors, has primed them to be suspicious of him. Then when he beats Carlsen as part of a particularly noteworthy surge to 2700 and Carlsen makes a very atypical allusion to foul play, people are inclined to take Carlsen' side. Not least because there's a tendency to think that Carlsen would be better able than anyone else to smell a rat in terms of an opponent's play.
But in terms of Hans' play in the game itself the only really suspicious thing seems to have been him having coincidentally studied that particular opening that morning. But even if the opening had been leaked to him in advance, that's not quite the same as the sort of OTB cheating people are now speculating about. His past behaviour has come back to bite him a bit as a lot of people aren't inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Really Carlsen needs to make clear what his suspicions are and whether they're prompted by Hans' knowledge of the opening, Hans' behaviour around the game, suspicions about Hans generally or something being off about the way the game played out. Without that info it's unfair on Hans as he can't really defend himself and it leaves everyone else guessing.
Great drama though.
But in terms of Hans' play in the game itself the only really suspicious thing seems to have been him having coincidentally studied that particular opening that morning. But even if the opening had been leaked to him in advance, that's not quite the same as the sort of OTB cheating people are now speculating about. His past behaviour has come back to bite him a bit as a lot of people aren't inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Really Carlsen needs to make clear what his suspicions are and whether they're prompted by Hans' knowledge of the opening, Hans' behaviour around the game, suspicions about Hans generally or something being off about the way the game played out. Without that info it's unfair on Hans as he can't really defend himself and it leaves everyone else guessing.
Great drama though.
"I have nothing to say" > "That's the only thing I'm going to say" > hours of discussion, allegations and dissecting the game and everything Niemann said about it.
Admits he cheated in the past in online chess, says he has never cheated over the board, says he has now been suspended by Chess.com as a result of this allegation.
Admitted cheaters should be banned TBH.
Proper smackdown from Hans. Let's see if Magnus is more than hot air of if he's just a sore loser. Oh and Hikaru who loves cashing in on others people misery suddenly stays quite and chess.com are just pathetic but no surprise there.
Ah.
Oh
im behindWhat a player Wesley So is. For me he should be winning more tournaments, and should be targeting the world title. Doesn't seem to have that confidence that he's one of the best 3 or 4 players in the world and killer instinct when he needs it but a rock solid player.