China bullies Hong Kong
- Thread starter Cal?
- Start date
Thinking about it, that's a pretty organic way for democracy to evolve and take centre-stage, just like the history of most Western nations.
Anyway, I'm done with the thread and apologies once again for hijacking it.
Anyway, I'm done with the thread and apologies once again for hijacking it.
A brutal military crackdown on students and people wanting (democratic) political reform is an organic way of evolving democracy now?
That event in history that is still censored to this day in China is another in a long line of historical examples that an authoritarian state does not give up power without bloodshed and does not hesitate to kill its own citizens in the streets to achieve that goal.
That event in history that is still censored to this day in China is another in a long line of historical examples that an authoritarian state does not give up power without bloodshed and does not hesitate to kill its own citizens in the streets to achieve that goal.
What? I was referring to my own comments on Singapore. Not China. That is an abhorrent act 30 years ago regardless of political ideology.
As I shared in my post on HK - China relations, history must be taught in a balanced manner, and - in this instance - not to swing wildly from a pro-British perspective to one that is pro-Chinese. If a balance cannot be struck, offer both perspectives.
Without descending into what about-isms, I think it would do the Chinese a world of good if this were taught in their textbooks. I suspect a majority are aware of it but are sadly nonchalant in their pragmatic pursuit of prosperity. I am hopeful this changes as their still-young modern society matures.
As with all of human history, there is a lot we can learn from, however ugly, to ensure we as one human race prevent such events from happening. With the current geopolitical tensions and highly charged anti-China/Chinese sentiment, we would all do well to revisit our past.
My apologies then. I thought you were commenting on the post above yours and I agree completely with your last paragraph. We can avoid/solve a lot of problems if we heed the lessons of those before us and our only hope of achieving a better future is in educating and nurturing those that come after.
Singapore’s parliamentary political system has been dominated by the ruling People’s Action Party (PAP) and the family of current prime minister Lee Hsien Loong since 1959. The electoral and legal framework that the PAP has constructed allows for some political pluralism, but it constrains the growth of credible opposition parties and limits freedoms of expression, assembly, and association.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/singapore/freedom-world/2020
What's not to love?
I do not think you understand Thailand. The Junta basically do not have a say in how they deal with the foreign relations. It is just a show. They simply cannot go against the wishes of the Americans if they feel strongly about it.
As for the submarines what the Thai military really require, they buy from the Americans. What they do not really need, they buy from outside. There is a kick back to someone. Not even sure if the submarines were even bought. Sure they put a lot in the economy and a lot of rich Thai companies have Chinese ethnicity too but when the push comes to shove it is the Americans who have the say. But this is another topic anyway.
When push comes to shove money will talk and Chinese money has more negotiating power than the Americans right now. The submarines have been bought and one has already been delivered. The Americans have long standing military ties with Thailand, however China has massive influence over the mekong River, is increasing its naval presence in the gulf of Thailand and increasing military ties as well. The owner of the largest publicly traded company in thailand took out a full page ad in a Hong Kong newspaper to denounce the protests and support "one china". We are currently buying vaccines from.his sister company in China . Anyways we can take this to the Thailand thread.
Should I go to the trouble of finding other sources or have you made up your mind? I mean, you also have google, surely you can confirm by yourself Singapore is far from being a free democracy.
What about the BBC?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-15966553
Or Reporters Without Borders.
https://rsf.org/en/singapore
China managed to get Microsoft (again) to remove references to it on Bing.
The thing with the CCP is that they won’t keep their authoritarianism at home.
TLDR: Yes Singaporeans are well-connected and aware of this. Some are:
1. Genuine censorship concerns
2. Resulted in memes and loss of readership/credibility
3. IMO important for national security especially with geopolitical tensions and foreign subversion/propaganda (operation mockingbird, CCP propaganda)
4. Not representative or used by the West as a beating stick
We have always been somewhat Orwellian and while things have improved there are still elements of it. Thankfully we aren't the size of China nor do we have any oil reserves.
Interesting inside take, thank you.
They way i saw it when i worked there was that the Singaporeans are happy, so nobody wants to change anything. That probably rings true anywhere. If life is good there is no reason to complain. Also helps having a very compliant culture.
It is amazing isn't it? What constitutes freedom to one group of people is different to another group or I should say citizens of another country. Freedom of speech or freedom to riot may not be of the highest priority to most people of some countries. I am amazed at the kind of social freedom you get in Singapore. A lot more than people expect in such a country where there is supposed to be so much restriction.
I respect the pro-democracy students who protested peacefully but I really wonder, based on my conversations with a few HKers between 25 - 34, whether a number of the protesters may have also conflated their perceived bleak future because of the insane cost of living (housing, jobs salary etc.). What I'm certain of is, as per the video, HK is really split even amongst family members living in the same house and it's just really sad they were not able to work things out peacefully. Honestly, the Greater Bay area project and China's infrastructure building prowess (social housing) would have alleviated most of their worries.
This video I just came across matches with my understanding of the HK situation based on my limited interactions with ex colleagues from HK and the girl I dated regarding this topic. There are claims from both sides of interference.
This video I just came across matches with my understanding of the HK situation based on my limited interactions with ex colleagues from HK and the girl I dated regarding this topic. There are claims from both sides of interference.
You're correct in saying cost of living contributes to the bleak outlook for youngsters but it's definitely not the case that HK is split. I lived there over 6 years and i don't think i ever met anybody who sided with the Chinese government. The only ones who do are those originally from the mainland or with very close family ties there. There is overwhelming support for the cause the protesters are fighting for.
I used to go very often before the covid and I found that it's an age thing. The younger folks tend to be anti Chinese and the older folks can't be bothered.
What's bizarre is that HK won't survive without China and they don't seem to realise it. As a country I have never seen anyone with such terrible PR than China.
That's because a lot of the older folk were born in the mainland and fled South in the 50s and 60s.
Define "survive" please, obviously HK independence if China is going to invade, but if they became (however unlikely) a peaceful neighbor, I don't see why not?
Hong Kong basically everything Singapore has (except a military which HK can afford to buy), so why can't HK survive?
HK depends everything on China. It's not like Singapore. It's impossible for HK to survive if they have a hostile China. One of the reasons why the British left was because they knew that it was impossible for HK to survive alone.
They are also not going to let HK walk away.
That I agree with, China are always looking to invade their neighbours.
If they invade Japan or Korea then you can say so. Hong Kong was always part of China. The British took it from them forcing it at gunpoint.That I agree with, China are always looking to invade their neighbours.
They literally have territorial disputes with every single neighboring country, except Russia who they happily ceded a large area to.
Hong Kong was part of Ching dynasty, was not part of PRC until 1997. By that kind of logic do Italy get to claim most of Europe as always part of their territory?
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Hong Kong was leased to UK... so yeah at the end of a lease you hand the keys back and leave...
Exactly.
The case of Hong Kong is fascinating... What really makes a country a country? There is no Hong Kong citizen alive today who can remember Hong Kong under Chinese rule. It is a very westernized country. That is probably why the majority don't welcome the new changes and nor identify as Chinese.
Say what you want: Hong Kong has its own unique culture, which is a blend of Eastern and Western ideals. And now they stand to lose this over some contractual bullshit that they had no control over. "But what about when the British took control?" Two wrongs don't make a right! Why should the citizens today have to suffer for something that happened long before any of them were born?
Part of HK was leased to the UK by the Ching Dynasty which no longer exists,
Singapore was never a country until it became a country when the empire broke up, the only difference is the hostile CCP governement.
Who did the uk hand the keys back to
Because if I lease a house off somebody and they die I'm pretty sure at the end of the lease it still belongs to somebody right
What a callous way of talking about a country with a unique culture going so far back that no one alive can remember the time of the original "owner". If the majority of the people in Hong Kong celebrated the return to China it would be one thing, but this is clearly not the case.
Correction... what an apparently callous? way of talking about a territory I grew up in
But yeah condescend away
Callous nonetheless.
I know that there exists Hong Kongers who find the "return" to China positive, but there is no denying that it will affect Hong Kongers way of life quite severely and that a very large portion of the population understandably is very against it.
In that situation, the house will be left to whoever is in their will or next of kin, not the person who murdered the one who murdered the original owner.
Strange that the uk handed the keys back to China and every other country went yup that's normal then? .... unless perhaps its not the rest of the world whose wrong and it might actually be you?
It's not like China invaded HK. They had international law on their side. In fact, the UK not handing over HK would probably have caused a bigger uproar. Did either side even consider the feelings of Hong Kongers? You know, the people who actually have to live with these decisions? I doubt it.
The whole agreement reeks 19th century colonialism anyways. Back then, superpowers created countries by drawing fecking lines on a map with complete disregard for the indigenous people in said areas. Do you really think that the British(or Chinese) back then even bothered to consider that they might end up creating an entirely new culture? That perhaps the Hong Kongers of the future might not be so keen on being handed back to China?
That is a different story. Should every province or state in every country has the right to become independent? I think so too but in reality it never happens. Catalonia should be independent. Kashmir should have the right to decide what they want to be. At least the Chinese have not militarily invaded HK and forced the people of HK to either leave or evict them from their homes for the people from mainland China to come and take over their homes.
A lot of countries have border issues. South Korea and Japan. Japan and China. Japan and Russia. Philippines and China, Philippines and Vietnam and Philippines and Malaysia. And almost everyone in the region.
The Hong Kong situation is a bit different from the typical border conflict. In many cases, provinces want independence purely for financial reasons. In the case of Hong Kong it was clearly about more than that. You have a people that has been born and raised with the idea that freedom of speech and freedom of the press are fundamental rights. Speaking as a Westerner I'd be genuinely terrified if I saw a possibility of this being taken away from me.
The moment it became clear that China gradually would seize control, as much as 15% of Hong Kong's population(over a 10 year period) either left Hong Kong permanently or to get a "back-up visa" from a different nation(Canada for instance). That speaks volumes, imo. 15% might not sound that bad, but then you have to consider all the people who either didn't have the resources for such a move or the ones who simply didn't dare to(which is understandable).
I get that allowing Hong Kong to become independent would be highly irregular, but it would probably be the right move(if the majority of Hong Kongers want this). I think the reason why so many feel extra sympathy with Hong Kong is the absurdity of the situation. Someone wrote a contract over 100 years ago that neither you nor your ancestors had the power to change, and now you'll gradually lose a lot of the things you hold dear. It's bizarre.
Look at Guantanamo Bay. Wasn't this a contract done years back and the USA would not give it back to Cuba? Look at Diego Garcia, Kashmir, Catalonia, Crimea? Kruschev who is an Ukranian gave to to the Republic of Ukraine when it was under the USSR. When USSR broke up the Crimeans wanted to be independent . Ukraine refused. So let's have a Universal system for people who want to be independent. Not just some people. Look at the people of Palestine. Heck they were invaded as part of Jordan and occupied still by Israel. As a westerner don't you see the hypocrisy of this is when you become selective?