[Swift Football]

I have followed them both since they were young and i strongly disagree. On all things except vision, passing and general on the ball ability, Smalling is either a lot or a bit better. Both about as good in the air.

It's not a lot between them because I agree composure with the ball is important, but the importance of creative passing is also overstated, they are defenders. Van Djik has still issues with concentration, organising, marking. Smalling is a bit better 1vs1 too.

Disagree. VVD is better than Smalling. What makes VVD unique to most other defenders is that he has both physical presence and good ability on the ball. It is difficult to find that combination. Considering ball playing abilities and passing, its not even close.

In pure defending terms too, VVD is slightly better IMO.
Air balls - Smalling is good but VVD is just too dominant. Also, VVD when making aerial clearances tend to head the ball towards his teammates rather than just clearing randomly.
One on one defending - Both are good at that and has similar style. Both tend to make standing tackles rather than going down forcing attacker to make decision.
VVD does not hold on to opponents' shirt while defending own box.
One thing VVD lacks is he sometimes tend to leave his man, as in he does some loose marking (more of a byproduct of his tendancy to defend space, but a bad by product rather than good). Smalling sticks to his man and follows very tightly.

 

[Red_toad]

He was never a lead CB in our title wins, Fergie rotated him in well. I said the big prizes, by that I mean European Cup and League.

He's got 2 league winning medals. 2 more than a certain rangers manager and 2 more than the popular choice to replace him. So let's not get facts and opinions mixed up on the 'very average player'.

 

[Red_toad]

Why can't he tackle without grappling and tussling with players? The real top class defenders anticipate the danger before it arrives and are in the right place at the right time to snuff it out. Smalling is always reacting and very last ditch. And if he doesn't win the initial challenge he needs to stop getting touch tight and take a step back instead of conceding the foul. The very best defenders don't get themselves involved in battles like Smalling does. They defend the space and not the man. Young is also guilty of this.

He hardly ever gets booked, that would point to him not committing fouls constantly. Plus no one is saying he's a very top defender, he's a step down from Rio. But in saying that Vida loved a battle and wasn't much better on the ball than Smalling, yet some fans rate him than better than Rio. Game is all But opinions. Smalling for me plays to his attributes and is certainly our most in form defender and most consistent defender for the last few years. That's why he's been a near nailed on starter when fit. Boils my piss when I see crap about him bring average, as he isn't, he's a very good defender.

 

[Sylar]

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Too funny

 

[Ekeke]

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Too funny

Extremely funny. Account in the link is suspended. Should say everything

 

[Mcking]

Disagree. VVD is better than Smalling. What makes VVD unique to most other defenders is that he has both physical presence and good ability on the ball. It is difficult to find that combination. Considering ball playing abilities and passing, its not even close.

In pure defending terms too, VVD is slightly better IMO.
Air balls - Smalling is good but VVD is just too dominant. Also, VVD when making aerial clearances tend to head the ball towards his teammates rather than just clearing randomly.
One on one defending - Both are good at that and has similar style. Both tend to make standing tackles rather than going down forcing attacker to make decision.
VVD does not hold on to opponents' shirt while defending own box.
One thing VVD lacks is he sometimes tend to leave his man, as in he does some loose marking (more of a byproduct of his tendancy to defend space, but a bad by product rather than good). Smalling sticks to his man and follows very tightly.

I'm a big Smalling defender, but this is very very correct.
They are almost a replica of each other, but VVD is a bit more dominant in the air and much better on the ball.
Having said that, VVD is the only defender I'd take ahead of Smalling in the league.

 

[Hammondo]

VVD is a vastly superior defender than Smalling. Smalling has probably got a hotter missus though tbf.

Smalling is easily better.

 

[Bobski]

I'm a big Smalling defender, but this is very very correct.
They are almost a replica of each other, but VVD is a bit more dominant in the air and much better on the ball.
Having said that, VVD is the only defender I'd take ahead of Smalling in the league.

I think they also look quite like each other facially as well, could be trans-European cousins. VVD is significantly bigger in the upper body compared to Smalling who has a leaner build, would say that VVD would be a fair bit heavier which perhaps gives Smalling the advantage in agility and reactions times.

 

[Sylar]

Extremely funny. Account in the link is suspended. Should say everything

I've been temporarily suspended for a tweet about safe standing

Smalling having to turn his whole body to make a pass is a negative. Especially when it would be simpler to pass with his left foot
I remember Anderson used to do the same

Also on another note i don't get why people are so defensive over the criticism that smalling isnt great on the ball and it does affect United esp against lower teams

 

[SteveW]

I've been temporarily suspended for a tweet about safe standing

Smalling having to turn his whole body to make a pass is a negative. Especially when it would be simpler to pass with his left foot
I remember Anderson used to do the same

Also on another note i don't get why people are so defensive over the criticism that smalling isnt great on the ball and it does affect United esp against lower teams

Because it doesn't really affect us.

 

[Sylar]

Because it doesn't really affect us.

Having a defender who can pass effectively forward means you can have your midfield push up higher to join with attack
Rio is one of the best examples of him coming forward with the ball to become an extra midfielder and allowing our midfield to help attack / give opposition defence more to worry about

I'm not saying it should be all on smalling either. But I do think opposition do well in closing down avenues when he has the ball because you know if he drives forward he will most likely turn and pass it sideways

That and crap fullbacks is a source of weakness for us in terms of making us less predictable

 

[Oldyella]

Aha Redcafe, never change.

Probably the only player De Gea aside who can hold his head up after last night's shit show and we still have people saying he should be the first cb we sell.

 

[SteveW]

Having a defender who can pass effectively forward means you can have your midfield push up higher to join with attack
Rio is one of the best examples of him coming forward with the ball to become an extra midfielder and allowing our midfield to help attack / give opposition defence more to worry about

I'm not saying it should be all on smalling either. But I do think opposition do well in closing down avenues when he has the ball because you know if he drives forward he will most likely turn and pass it sideways

That and crap fullbacks is a source of weakness for us in terms of making us less predictable

I think Rio is the best PL defender ever. But even I wouldn't pretend he didn't just hoof it forward for most of his time here.

Either way if you think having one safe passing CB is the problem with our football you're crazy. Vidic didn't do much more than Chris in the ball. Difference is he was surrounded by players who actually wanted the ball in a team who actually tried to play football.

 

[SteveW]

Aha Redcafe, never change.

Probably the only player De Gea aside who can hold his head up after last night's shit show and we still have people saying he should be the first cb we sell.

I agree. He was very good last night. Dominated Murray who's given trouble to a lot of CBs this season

 

[ravi2]

Aha Redcafe, never change.

Probably the only player De Gea aside who can hold his head up after last night's shit show and we still have people saying he should be the first cb we sell.

Smalling shouldn't be sold, he is a decent backup CB. Jones needs to go purely based on his injury record.

 

[Frank Grimes]

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Too funny

Sums him up. You see better distribution from the average Sunday League player.

 

[King_Cantona07]

Because it doesn't really affect us.

Smalling is a good defender but for passing he is pretty bad at this level. Our moves become predictable since it always is smalling passing to right side full back which then goes to a right winger who is not a winger which results in a pass back to midfield. If he passes to fellaini it comes straight back or goes side ways to matic who then gets covered due to slow tempo and passing lines available.

 

[SteveW]

Smalling is a good defender but for passing he is pretty bad at this level. Our moves become predictable since it always is smalling passing to right side full back which then goes to a right winger who is not a winger which results in a pass back to midfield. If he passes to fellaini it comes straight back or goes side ways to matic who then gets covered due to slow tempo and passing lines available.

It was fine when Vidic used to do it because he had ball players to give it to. How about bring in some fullbacks and midfielders who are at the right standard? Smalling is doing an excellent job as a defender. Problem is elsewhere in the team.

 

[All 3 United]

If Smalling needs to go, the entire list of CBs go with him.

I have absolutely no issue with this.

 

[Sylar]

I think Rio is the best PL defender ever. But even I wouldn't pretend he didn't just hoof it forward for most of his time here.

Either way if you think having one safe passing CB is the problem with our football you're crazy. Vidic didn't do much more than Chris in the ball. Difference is he was surrounded by players who actually wanted the ball in a team who actually tried to play football.

I don't think it's the problem
I think it's one problem but not the most immediate problem
But given this is the smalling thread I see no issue in making the point I've always made:

Smalling is a great defender esp in the penalty area who I wouldn't sell. But at the same time I think we could improve upon (but wouldn't be the first thing i address)
I do however think he should be more of an organiser / leader than he currently is.

 

[Frank Grimes]

He's got 2 league winning medals. 2 more than a certain rangers manager and 2 more than the popular choice to replace him. So let's not get facts and opinions mixed up on the 'very average player'.

I explained he was not a main CB in any of the title wins. Rio and Vidic were still our main pairing in 2011 and 2013 and even Johnny Evans was more influential in those years. Smalling has been our most played CB since Fergie left and we have not been near the big prizes. Obviously that is not just because Smalling is not good enough, there are plenty others not up to scratch either.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Smalling is a good defender but for passing he is pretty bad at this level. Our moves become predictable since it always is smalling passing to right side full back which then goes to a right winger who is not a winger which results in a pass back to midfield. If he passes to fellaini it comes straight back or goes side ways to matic who then gets covered due to slow tempo and passing lines available.

Spot on, I don't know how people brush this under the carpet like it's not important. Also anyone who says Rio and Vidic were the same are talking rubbish.

 

[Leftback99]

Rather than debating who is better out of VVD and Smalling we should wonder why we didn't go for him. Would be a good partnership. Instead we wasted money on Lindelof.

 

[Mcking]

I agree. He was very good last night. Dominated Murray who's given trouble to a lot of CBs this season

Smalling hardly struggle even against the best and most physical strikers.

 

[Mcking]

Rather than debating who is better out of VVD and Smalling we should wonder why we didn't go for him. Would be a good partnership. Instead we wasted money on Lindelof.

Too expensive, I'd guess.

 

[King_Cantona07]

It was fine when Vidic used to do it because he had ball players to give it to. How about bring in some fullbacks and midfielders who are at the right standard? Smalling is doing an excellent job as a defender. Problem is elsewhere in the team.

Never seen vidic adjusting body like what smalling do to make a pass. As a pure stopper smalling is best in league. Anything outside of it he can’t do and modern game need passing lines to be found other than right side wing. Anyday he is best of lot at club though.

 

[Amar__]

Smalling is a good defender but for passing he is pretty bad at this level. Our moves become predictable since it always is smalling passing to right side full back which then goes to a right winger who is not a winger which results in a pass back to midfield. If he passes to fellaini it comes straight back or goes side ways to matic who then gets covered due to slow tempo and passing lines available.

So it's Smalling's fault we have shit fullbacks, RW and Fellaini.

 

[Minimalist]

It's amazing the amount of people who buy into Mourinho's pragmatic approach to football but can't apply it to analysing our players.

Binning your only dependable centre-back who can do the basics right 99% of the time, is not fcuking pragmatic.

Jones, Bailly and Rojo can't fecking stay fit - focus on them.

 

[Ekeke]

I've been temporarily suspended for a tweet about safe standing

Smalling having to turn his whole body to make a pass is a negative. Especially when it would be simpler to pass with his left foot
I remember Anderson used to do the same

Also on another note i don't get why people are so defensive over the criticism that smalling isnt great on the ball and it does affect United esp against lower teams

Because its completely overstated and far less important than all these wannabe Barcelona fans who insist we need 2 deepest deep of the deep lying playmaker CBs in our backline otherwise our attacking players cant possibly score goals against teams like Brighton.

 

[RedPed]

It's amazing the amount of people who buy into Mourinho's pragmatic approach to football but can't apply it to analysing our players.

Binning your only dependable centre-back who can do the basics right 99% of the time, is not fcuking pragmatic.

Jones, Bailly and Rojo can't fecking stay fit - focus on them.

Regardless of whether Jones, Bailly or Rojo are fit or not, it doesn't alter the fact that Smalling is just a bang average defender. The fact that Mourinho continues to play him doesn't change that perspective when you consider that he also rates Fellaini for some bizarre reason.

Oh, and 99% of the time is being extremely generous!

 

[Ekeke]

Regardless of whether Jones, Bailly or Rojo are fit or not, it doesn't alter the fact that Smalling is just a bang average defender. The fact that Mourinho continues to play him doesn't change that perspective when you consider that he also rates Fellaini for some bizarre reason.

Oh, and 99% of the time is being extremely generous!

Fellaini is used as a backup, not the mainstay of the defence with others rotated around him.

 

[Sylar]

Because its completely overstated and far less important than all these wannabe Barcelona fans who insist we need 2 deepest deep of the deep lying playmaker CBs in our backline otherwise our attacking players cant possibly score goals against teams like Brighton.

No, but it certainly helps on the occasions where our attackers have off days and make us less predictable

 

[Ekeke]

No, but it certainly helps on the occasions where our attackers have off days and make us less predictable

But theres a space right next to Smalling where that luxury ball playing defender can sit, and Smalling will be one of the best around at plugging any gaps that leaves in the defence. He can concentrate on being that ball player knowing Smalling is used to doing the defensive job of more than 1 player.

Thats why it doesnt make any sense. We don't need 2 Xavis at CB

 

[RedPed]

Fellaini is used as a backup, not the mainstay of the defence with others rotated around him.

Two reasons right there why we will continually fail to achieve. We've come to accept mediocrity as the new standard for Manchester United!

 

[Ekeke]

Two reasons right there why we will continually fail to achieve. We've come to accept mediocrity as the new standard for Manchester United!

Yeah its not like he played when we won things, under our most successful manager.

We have accepted some less than ideal players, but its funny how you guys dont appreciate one of the ones who isnt mediocre. Smalling is our 3rd best CB of the past 10 years behind Rio and Vidic. And most CBs would be behind Rio and Vidic.

 

[Sylar]

But theres a space right next to Smalling where that luxury ball playing defender can sit, and Smalling will be one of the best around at plugging any gaps that leaves in the defence. He can concentrate on being that ball player knowing Smalling is used to doing the defensive job of more than 1 player.

Thats why it doesnt make any sense. We don't need 2 Xavis at CB

No we don't, but the problem is that it's often smalling that comes out with the ball, and we have seen what happens
As I said his best partnership has been with blind. However I think for how long smalling has been here, he should be a better leader and organiser. But when you go to games you can see he hardly communicates

And I also think he's not good when he's high and a ball is put over the top. I've seen him struggle so many times
If we gonba a play a deep defense I think smalling is great for that and that will come against the big teams or teams who cross into our box
However against the Brightons of this world smalling is gonna be an issue

 

[Ekeke]

No we don't, but the problem is that it's often smalling that comes out with the ball, and we have seen what happens
As I said his best partnership has been with blind. However I think for how long smalling has been here, he should be a better leader and organiser. But when you go to games you can see he hardly communicates

And I also think he's not good when he's high and a ball is put over the top. I've seen him struggle so many times
If we gonba a play a deep defense I think smalling is great for that and that will come against the big teams or teams who cross into our box
However against the Brightons of this world smalling is gonna be an issue

I see him communicate a lot during phases of play. More so than our other defenders. And win plenty of the time with balls over the top because he has good pace and strength

 

[Sylar]

I see him communicate a lot during phases of play. More so than our other defenders. And win plenty of the time with balls over the top because he has good pace and strength

Him winning the ball in the air isn't what I'm talking about
When it's put in behind him I see him struggling

Regardless that's not even a big criticism against him cos that can easily happen to anybody

The communication however at times is non existent. When I've gone to OT and seen him play especially this season, and last few, he hardly communicates. Not as much as you expect a captain/ leader / experienced defender to do so. It's not a strength for him

 

[Ekeke]

Him winning the ball in the air isn't what I'm talking about
When it's put in behind him I see him struggling

Regardless that's not even a big criticism against him cos that can easily happen to anybody

The communication however at times is non existent. When I've gone to OT and seen him play especially this season, and last few, he hardly communicates. Not as much as you expect a captain/ leader / experienced defender to do so. It's not a strength for him

I didnt say he won the ball in the air? I said I see him dealing with balls in behind him plenty of the time. If you look at the goals he's made any kind of mistake on this season, they havent been like that at all. In fact I can barely think of any in his career because he's always had good recovery pace. What he tends to occasionally get caught out with is marking on set pieces. Although as a team in general we're quite poor at that

I see him waving his hands at the other defenders plenty of the time

 

[Sylar]

I didnt say he won the ball in the air? I said I see him dealing with balls in behind him plenty of the time. If you look at the goals he's made any kind of mistake on this season, they havent been like that at all. In fact I can barely think of any in his career because he's always had good recovery pace. What he tends to occasionally get caught out with is marking on set pieces. Although as a team in general we're quite poor at that

I see him waving his hands at the other defenders plenty of the time

Yeah, as I said, he struggles like the Leicester goal in the 2-2 (first), or the Palace cup final that lead to his first booking.
But again, not even a big criticism against him.

The biggest issue against him remains:
-His leadership
-His marking on setpieces as you said (and grabbing shirts)
-His ability on the ball (which is the biggest issue)

However as noted before, thats only cos this is the Smalling thread. If i had to compile a list of things to improve upon, he would be lower down the order.