No, we're quite disorganized defensively as a team and our CBs are exposed. Luckily we have Smalling and De Gea.
Organizing how we defend set pieces comes from the manager.
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Organizing how we defend set pieces comes from the manager.
Of course they’re not the finished product. I’m not saying Stones isn’t good or that he won’t get better. What I’m saying is he’ll never be anywhere near Ferdinand at his peak. At 24 Rio was already a much better player than Stones is currently.
I disagree. The Tottenham game was an anomaly.
The opposition has to get the ball before they can win set pieces though. The less set pieces, the less goals conceded.
That is all true, but you underestimate the damage PL sides can cause, even with little possession, against a side that has crappy defenders.
I know. But a team with better defenders are more likely to concede from set pieces if they concede too many.
Also, City as a whole press immediately they lose the ball and that gives great protection to their defence against counter attacks.
We are the exact opposite. We play with two defensive focused midfielders and wide men who have to track back to protect the CBs and we're generally extremely well organised. Most of the shots we concede are from poor positions. We let ourselves down because of set pieces and every now and then we seem to fall to bits under pressure.
I must have imagined all those different midfield systems that have not worked because in part of Pogba being awful defensively. Not as if Pogba not being able to play in a 2 has been a discussion point on here at all.
The CB's can be a problem and they can have had imperfect protection from midfield. Both can be true. We don't have to blame every issue in the team on the CB's.
Yeh. Such a shame time isn't so kind on his foreshadowing power@devilish foreshadowing Vidic.
I see it every week. Fullbacks needing to be covered or being slow to get back into position, playing people onside when they are back. DM not covering the space between the opponent's midfield and attack allowing someone to have time on the ball around the edge of our box.
Rarely do we look anywhere near as organized as our opponents. More talent yes and that can often get the job done, but organization and workrate? Not even close.
The trouble with unearthing old posts is that we tend to ignore the standards and the context of the time. In 2003, the memories of the treble team were still very fresh in our mind. During the treble we had a defensive unit which could easily walk in our team or our current England's (if they were English) without breaking a sweat.
Unfortunately defence was ignored pretty much in the same way SAF did with CM during his last years with us. Players like Schmeichel, Johnsen, Stam and Irwin were basically replaced with tripe (Howard, Carroll, Foster, Bosnich, Taibi etc + Silvestre and Blanc from Inter reserves) and the defensive unit was close to collapse. To make matters worse Keane was starting to show some signs of wear and tear + Wes was slowly but surely becoming injury prone.
A 24 year old Rio was SAF's very first move to ratify the situation. It was a step in the right direction but putting all that pressure on a 24 year old was a bit too much even for Rio Ferdinand. Thus people like myself believed that Rio needed help and couldn't possibly do a Stam because the circumstances were completely different. Stam walked in a defence which was 1 top player short to greatness (Schmeichel at the back, Keane in midfield, Johnsen, Gaz and Irwin at his side). Rio was walking in a defence which had Howard on goal, Blanc and an injury prone Wes as CBs, Silvestre as LB and with the likes of Butt, Djemba and Kleberson 'fighting' to one day succeed Keano. And we were proven right. Heinze was brought in 2004, Van Der Saar in 2005, Carrick, Vidic and Evra were brought in 2006 and Hargreaves in 2007.
A 24 year old Rio (or anyone really) might not have been enough to single handedly sort out the enormous task at hand. However, he was a far better CB then Stones, Jones, Smalling, Lindelof and Bailly
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Always thought 2005 and 2006 signings transformed the club for the next 7-8 years. We added VDS, Vidic, Evra, Carrick and also players like Park. What a signings those were,
Also checking back, we added some great players in every window but the signings in 2005 and 2006 were the missing links in the end.
2004-05 - Rooney, Heinze,
2003-04 - Ronaldo, Saha,
2002-03 - Ferdinand,
2001-02 - RVN, Veron.
We added quality in all the seasons but that 2005 and 2006 transfer windows just changed everything.
I agree, however I was referring to the defensive unit (ie GK, Defence, DM). Sometimes WC attacking minded players add more stress to the defensive unit rather then actually help it. For example the likes of Valencia or Park tend to backtrack more then lets say Ronaldo or Nani. I am not saying that we shouldn't get these sort of players, that would be madness. However unless the defence is good enough to support them then we might have issues down the line.
I think Smalling is our first choice CB. I don't like it but that's how it is.
Honestly people are just trying to find excuses to hate players or find scapegoat in the team. Smalling used to play right back for us and also he has shown some quality passing ability in LVG era. He's not a ball playing centre back without a doubt but when I heard people saying Jones is better on the ball distribution than Smalling, it confuses me because I don't see Jones to be even 1% better than Smalling on the ball distribution.
He's by far the best of a very bad bunch but he has a lot of qualities as well
It’s really not tho is it, this is one of the biggest CAF myths in existence. It’s up there with his clumsiness in the box or shirt pulling costs us.
I don't remember his passing ability improving to any great degree in the LVG era but I do remember that he made a lot of powerful runs out from the defence in that first part of LVG's second season. Doesn't do it as often these days (but then Bailly aside, none of our centre backs do)
So I was making a list of stats based on last season pertaining to CBs we've either been linked to (as long as they are realistic) and also some potential CBs we havent been linked to.
In the end I decided to do the same with the CBs we already have to make sure its understood what a lot of their strengths and weaknesses really are.
Bare in mind that although some of these stats are noted, that doesn't mean they are all as important as one another.
For example Phil Jones is joint least tackled CB in the league... But if he isnt making a lot of dribbles of course he will be tackled less than others who are commonly trying to dribble up the pitch such as Maguire.
Stats based on 17/18 Premier League season, among all players who played 10 and more games at CB in the League :
Chris Smalling :
+ Joint Highest Goalscorer, Joint 2nd Least Tackled, Joint 4th Most Interceptions, 9th Most Shots blocked in the league, Joint 9th Least Amount of Inaccurate Long Passes per game, Clearances, Few times Dribbled, Accurate Passing.
- Joint Least Dribbles per game, Joint 2nd Least Amount of Accurate Long Passes
Smalling is a Goalscoring CB who doesnt lose the ball by being tackled or making inaccurate passes.
He also tries the least amount of dribbles from CB in the league and very few long passes.
Defensively he makes a high amount of interceptions and blocked shots. He also makes plenty of clearances and its very uncommon for him to be dribbled past by an attacker. Very reliable defensively. Physically he's fast for his size and very tall with good strength.
Eric Bailly :
+ Joint Least Lost Aerials per game, 2nd Most Key Passes from Long Passes per game, Joint 4th Most Interceptions, Joint 8th Most Fouled in the league.
- 0 Goals, Least Aerials Attempted in the league per game, Joint 2nd Most Tackled, Joint 2nd Least Amount of Accurate Long Passes per game, Joint 3rd Least Amount of Successful Aerials per game, Joint 6th Least Shots per game, Occasionally loses ball with unsafe touch, Positioning?, Few Shots blocked
Bailly is a CB who relies a lot on his physicality and aggressiveness. He seems to prefer the ball on the ground as he's either reluctant to make aerial challenges or passes on the responsibility to his partner at CB who might be better at it. This leads to him attempting the least aerial challenges in the league and also the least amount of successful ones.
He will occasionally run with the ball out of defense but he is sometimes stopped with a tackle. The number differences are quite small but Bailly has slightly more key passes from long passes per game than most of the CBs in the league.
Defensively he makes a high amount of interceptions and a low amount of blocked shots among his peers in the league. Physically he's strong for his size and quite quick allowing him to make a recovery. He can be a bit rash or go in a bit strong for a challenge. He seems to have trouble clearing the ball properly with a lot of mishit ones flying all over the place. Has been very injury prone since joining.
Victor Lindelof :
+ Joint 4th Least Amount of Inaccurate Long Passes per game, 8th Least Dribbled past.
- 0 Goals, Joint Least Shots per game, 2nd Least Interceptions in the league, Joint 3rd Least Amount of Successful Aerials per game, Joint 10th Least Amount of Accurate Long Passes per game
Lindelof's strength according to last season's stats is that he's not easily dribbled past.
He makes very few interceptions, very few successful aerial challenges and makes few long passes per game. He also arguably looks the least athletic of our CB options relating to strength and speed and had a terrible start to last season. If we include this season that would make 2.
Phil Jones :
+ Joint Least Tackled per game, Joint 3rd Least Lost Aerials per game, 3rd Highest Passing Percentage out of CBs and 6th Overall of any player in the League, Joint 4th Least Amount of Inaccurate Long Passes per game, 7th Least Fouls per game, 2nd Most Fouled per game.
- 0 Goals, Joint Least Shots per game, Joint Least Amount of Key Passes from Long Passes per game, 10th Least Attempted Aerials
Jones is a very accurate passer and rarely loses the ball by being tackled or with a wayward pass. He wins a lot of freekicks and gives few away himself.
He doesn't challenge for a large amount of aerial balls and neither does he score goals but is otherwise a very good all round CB. He does occasionally make a mistake which led to a lot of fans to writing him off. On the balance of things over the last 18 months or so I wouldn't say he makes any more mistakes than Rojo, Bailly and Lindelof have in that time. Smalling is the outlier. Fairly injury prone over his United career but was available a good amount last season.
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So the stats suggest Jones is better on then ball than Smalling. But Smalling is obviously the best out and out CB at the club and one of the best in the league.
They have some similarities like not giving the ball away and accurately passing the ball to a teammate. And Jones, like most of our CBs doesnt attempt a lot of aerial challenges. But Smalling makes a good amount so can cover that somewhat.
I was a little surprised to see that Jones makes very few fouls because he can be a bit rash at times. But perhaps those times simply dont lead to fouls and instead lead to chances or a situation that gets defended by the team. So I guess its not guaranteed to be a good thing. Not everything that would be useful is counted in these stats.
I left Rojo out because statistically he had the worst season and for me he's last in the pecking order. If I have time I might look at it another time.
In the end I decided to do the same with the CBs we already have to make sure its understood what a lot of their strengths and weaknesses really are.
Bare in mind that although some of these stats are noted, that doesn't mean they are all as important as one another.
For example Phil Jones is joint least tackled CB in the league... But if he isnt making a lot of dribbles of course he will be tackled less than others who are commonly trying to dribble up the pitch such as Maguire.
Stats based on 17/18 Premier League season, among all players who played 10 and more games at CB in the League :
Chris Smalling :
+ Joint Highest Goalscorer, Joint 2nd Least Tackled, Joint 4th Most Interceptions, 9th Most Shots blocked in the league, Joint 9th Least Amount of Inaccurate Long Passes per game, Clearances, Few times Dribbled, Accurate Passing.
- Joint Least Dribbles per game, Joint 2nd Least Amount of Accurate Long Passes
Smalling is a Goalscoring CB who doesnt lose the ball by being tackled or making inaccurate passes.
He also tries the least amount of dribbles from CB in the league and very few long passes.
Defensively he makes a high amount of interceptions and blocked shots. He also makes plenty of clearances and its very uncommon for him to be dribbled past by an attacker. Very reliable defensively. Physically he's fast for his size and very tall with good strength.
Eric Bailly :
+ Joint Least Lost Aerials per game, 2nd Most Key Passes from Long Passes per game, Joint 4th Most Interceptions, Joint 8th Most Fouled in the league.
- 0 Goals, Least Aerials Attempted in the league per game, Joint 2nd Most Tackled, Joint 2nd Least Amount of Accurate Long Passes per game, Joint 3rd Least Amount of Successful Aerials per game, Joint 6th Least Shots per game, Occasionally loses ball with unsafe touch, Positioning?, Few Shots blocked
Bailly is a CB who relies a lot on his physicality and aggressiveness. He seems to prefer the ball on the ground as he's either reluctant to make aerial challenges or passes on the responsibility to his partner at CB who might be better at it. This leads to him attempting the least aerial challenges in the league and also the least amount of successful ones.
He will occasionally run with the ball out of defense but he is sometimes stopped with a tackle. The number differences are quite small but Bailly has slightly more key passes from long passes per game than most of the CBs in the league.
Defensively he makes a high amount of interceptions and a low amount of blocked shots among his peers in the league. Physically he's strong for his size and quite quick allowing him to make a recovery. He can be a bit rash or go in a bit strong for a challenge. He seems to have trouble clearing the ball properly with a lot of mishit ones flying all over the place. Has been very injury prone since joining.
Victor Lindelof :
+ Joint 4th Least Amount of Inaccurate Long Passes per game, 8th Least Dribbled past.
- 0 Goals, Joint Least Shots per game, 2nd Least Interceptions in the league, Joint 3rd Least Amount of Successful Aerials per game, Joint 10th Least Amount of Accurate Long Passes per game
Lindelof's strength according to last season's stats is that he's not easily dribbled past.
He makes very few interceptions, very few successful aerial challenges and makes few long passes per game. He also arguably looks the least athletic of our CB options relating to strength and speed and had a terrible start to last season. If we include this season that would make 2.
Phil Jones :
+ Joint Least Tackled per game, Joint 3rd Least Lost Aerials per game, 3rd Highest Passing Percentage out of CBs and 6th Overall of any player in the League, Joint 4th Least Amount of Inaccurate Long Passes per game, 7th Least Fouls per game, 2nd Most Fouled per game.
- 0 Goals, Joint Least Shots per game, Joint Least Amount of Key Passes from Long Passes per game, 10th Least Attempted Aerials
Jones is a very accurate passer and rarely loses the ball by being tackled or with a wayward pass. He wins a lot of freekicks and gives few away himself.
He doesn't challenge for a large amount of aerial balls and neither does he score goals but is otherwise a very good all round CB. He does occasionally make a mistake which led to a lot of fans to writing him off. On the balance of things over the last 18 months or so I wouldn't say he makes any more mistakes than Rojo, Bailly and Lindelof have in that time. Smalling is the outlier. Fairly injury prone over his United career but was available a good amount last season.
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So the stats suggest Jones is better on then ball than Smalling. But Smalling is obviously the best out and out CB at the club and one of the best in the league.
They have some similarities like not giving the ball away and accurately passing the ball to a teammate. And Jones, like most of our CBs doesnt attempt a lot of aerial challenges. But Smalling makes a good amount so can cover that somewhat.
I was a little surprised to see that Jones makes very few fouls because he can be a bit rash at times. But perhaps those times simply dont lead to fouls and instead lead to chances or a situation that gets defended by the team. So I guess its not guaranteed to be a good thing. Not everything that would be useful is counted in these stats.
I left Rojo out because statistically he had the worst season and for me he's last in the pecking order. If I have time I might look at it another time.
Watford 1:2 Man Utd
Brilliant today. Great finish too.
He has been our best defender for 4 years. Make of that what you will.
MOTM today for me.
MOTM today for me.
Guess this is yet another ‘one-off’ brilliant performance for us. He seems to have hundreds of this uncommon great games.
MOTM.
Deserves so much credit, fantastic from Smalling.
Our best CB.
Our best defender.
Not just great at defender but he's our only defender that's a threat from set pieces.
Sublime finish that suits a striker more than a defender.
Not just great at defender but he's our only defender that's a threat from set pieces.
Sublime finish that suits a striker more than a defender.
Good game, but Smalling better pray that VAR never gets implemented in the Premier League. He will get so many penalties against him the way he has his hands around/holds players on every set piece.
I like his new look.
Mike Smaldini.
He was holding a guy on a set piece and Deeney, a professional chest ball takedowner, took a ball on his chest once.
2/10.
2/10.
As usual good performance from him. Took his goal really well.
Our best defender. He's been in the past 5+ years. Nothing new.
I might order a Smaldini shirt. He's our rock at the back.
We saw in the world cup that many challenges of that type that were significantly worse than anything Smalling does were allowed to go unpunished. It generally took ridiculously bad fouls of that type to actually get called by the VAR. There was one cheap one given as well, and if that becomes the norm then you may have a point, but for now that was just an outlier.
Magnificent. What a guy, scores goals, makes blocks, wins headers and never complains when he's dropped. My first choice for the centreback spot from now on.
Mike.
Look at that, Rio not crying about holding or grappling because he knows that is what hard nosed defending is all about in the PL. Battling against physical players who give it back, not that VAR corrupted non contact stuff we saw in the Summer.
I already have one from 2015. Do it!
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