City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[gormless]

One, I think. Which was not given to any other club. Also, for match fixing rather than financial doping. I know both are cheating, but, you know how it will go…

Fairly sure Inter were given it?

 

[Sarni]

Fairly sure Inter were given it?

I think they ended up reversing it.

I think titles like that are fairly meaningless for clubs that get them in lieu of team that had them taken away. It doesn’t nearly emulate the joy of actually winning it in the first place.

 

[LordSpud]

I would even be surprised if that is the extent of their punishment. I am expecting something like an 8-10 point deduction and some pocket change fine they won’t even notice. I fully expect this to be dealt with very inadequately, big/rich clubs can get away with far more than regular clubs like Everton and Nottingham.

This is what I expect too, however for me it just doesn't make sense that Everton have been deducted more this season for (what I assume is) less charges.

 

[NotChatGPT]

I dont know about that. The idea of not following football would have been completely unthinkable to me 20 years ago. I think we've narrowly avoided about 3 or 4 instances that probably would have been the straw that broke the camels back as far as my continued interest in the sport goes in the last 18 months. I've completely wrote off la liga and have largely forgotten about international football. I suppose they've got a few million chinese / indian supporters to replace me but I'm not sure why they'd have any interest in the current version of the sport.

Obviously it's not going to have any effect whatsoever, but for me whatever happens in the case against Manchester City is more or less going to determine if i give up on watching football or not. I already think it's become more than just a bit pointless, especially with UEFA and FIFA introducing more and more tournaments and matches in order to increase their revenue.

 

[padzilla]

Sky Sports had an interview with a PL chief last week where he said the matter will resolve itself in the near future. That, to me, is the language of someone expecting it to quietly go away, it's utterly bizarre no date has been made public yet.

 

[henrysquire]

Unsustainable.

 

[tomaldinho1]

They’ll get an unprecedented 30 point deduction and an even more unprecedented fine of, like, 100 million.

At which point the authorities will be able to say City were punished harder than any other club has ever been.

And City will be out of CL for a season. Maybe.

Doubt it will even be that much. Will be like 10 points and £20m and still pundits can act like they’ve been hard done by and how it’s harsh etc.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Sky Sports had an interview with a PL chief last week where he said the matter will resolve itself in the near future. That, to me, is the language of someone expecting it to quietly go away, it's utterly bizarre no date has been made public yet.

It's not surprising in the slightest. The key moment was when they opened the door and welcomed them in with a warm embrace. Now, they can't force them out (unless something outside football occurs, like Russia and the West). And if you read the Wiki leaks, UEFA (who took them to court) never had an issue with their cheating. The "problem" always was that they cheated "too much". They were basically telling them: "We don't care it's not organic, just try and make it look like it is". PSG agreed, City didn't. The PL are probably looking for a similar deal. The Saudis do look a bit more constrained with the numbers they're presenting at Newcastle. Perhaps, this is the solution they're trying to push.

 

[NotChatGPT]

It's not surprising in the slightest. The key moment was when they opened the door and welcomed them in with a warm embrace. Now, they can't force them out (unless something outside football occurs, like Russia and the West). And if you read the Wiki leaks, UEFA (who took them to court) never had an issue with their cheating. The "problem" always was that they cheated "too much". They were basically telling them: "We don't care it's not organic, just try and make it look like it is". PSG agreed, City didn't. The PL are probably looking for a similar deal. The Saudis do look a bit more constrained with the numbers they're presenting at Newcastle. Perhaps, this is the solution they're trying to push.

Depends a bit on the context he said it in. I can only hope it was said in relation to City being in a title race.

Again, the Premier League is a product that brings a ton of investments to the UK, that’s it. We’re also talking friends of the UK gov. There’s no interest in forcing them out. It's also a certainty that local politicians in Manchester and the UK gov is lobbying hard to prevent any punishment from having a major impact on overall investments.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Depends a bit on the context he said it in. I can only hope it was said in relation to City being in a title race.

Again, the Premier League is a product that brings a ton of investments to the UK, that’s it. We’re also talking friends of the UK gov. There’s no interest in forcing them out. It's also a certainty that local politicians in Manchester and the UK gov is lobbying hard to prevent any punishment from having a major impact on overall investments.

If the PL knowingly harbours cheating institutions it should considerably devalue the product. Long term it would be more advisable to at the very least severely punish City. No one would bother with a rigged sport because it takes the excitement away.

 

[United Hobbit]

City are purchased by Abu Dhabi in September 2008. Manchester City placed 9th the season prior. Abu Dhabi get to work buying players who wouldn't otherwise even look in City's direction. 9th place in 2007/'08 becomes 8th place in 2008/'09; the initial steps of the process take a while to bed in, as the old is replaced with the new. City's first big leap takes place the next season with 8th place bested by three positions. They finish the 2009/'10 season in 5th position. We're now in 2010/'11 and City have sacked Hughes and got their first big name coach in Roberto Mancini. They finish 3rd that season and are now a Champions League club. They've been a perennial fixture in the CL places ever since.

There are no cyclic ups or downs, no consequence for poor purchases where normal clubs are lumped with players whose value plummets who they then cannot get off their books because they cannot afford to pay up their contracts willy-nilly and no other club will take them on without subsidy. There is no fear or regard for any of the recognised norms clubs who are not state-owned are hamstrung by. City are a guaranteed lock for a CL place, thus taking it away from any legitimate contender who is then vying with the remainder for 'a go'. The established Old Order are hurt by this, but the remainder are absolutely crushed by it because they have to have more luck than ever before, or take on more financial risk than ever before to try and break this new status quo.

Meanwhile, of the Old Order, not one of them has been a lock in the CL positions as a perennial fixture since 2009/'10

Manchester United have missed out on the CL 5, going on 6 times (once this season concludes).

Liverpool have missed out on the CL 6 times.

Chelsea have missed out on the CL 4, going on 5 times (once this season concludes).

Arsenal have missed out on the CL 6 times.

This is the Old Order, look how many times these so-called behemoths have failed to qualify for the Champions League since City became an indubitable fixture in the competition. Whether you wish to count Chelsea or not, the point remains - Chelsea are more an example of a club with no hope forcing themselves into the conversation, but not overstepping the mark to the point they have broken football.

Now, as stated by numerous people and their painstaking efforts to make clear how damaging what City are doing is, it's not the clubs above who are the most put out by City, it's the teams below them who, without City's permanency would have had a chance to make their play for the top table. Spurs are going to have been the biggest fall guys, but now it's also the likes of Villa as they try and push through the glass ceiling to compete directly with the teams above (and not City).

There is no time in English football history where Old Orders (they used to be dynamic: Wolves, for example, used to be a big dog up to the conclusion of the 1950's) as there have been - or supposedly established - where those teams remained, perennially, at the helm. In fact, most are defined by golden periods followed by fallow times where they cannot compete for the league nor CL (or previously, the European Cup).

Great periods for these sides are attributed to great men doing unbelievably shrewd work within a financial remit that whilst at the higher end, was not obliterating those around them - the clubs ebbed and flowed with the passage of these managers. City are a faceless state, as @Regulus Arcturus Black stated, there is no way for them to fail because they will always have the best in class, will always replace the best with the best and there will never be a lull due to financial instability or uncertainty. In other words, completely and utterly artificial conditions, especially when contrasted with what history has told us about every one of the Old Order, who all, to a club, could/did/have slumped and have had to re-establish themselves once more years down the line.

It's clear that what some see as "Manchester United" is actually an infernal loathing of Alex Ferguson and the brilliance he ushered into the club, which immediately lost its way without him at the top. In the following 10 years, the cluelessness, and more importantly, the consequences of that cluelessness, have not only seen Manchester United fall back into the pack, but for most of the time, be behind them by some distance. The exact same thing befell Liverpool when Dalglish handed over to Souness and sent them flailing, not only off the top spot, but to be out of the running for the title for years. In very short order, both clubs went from halcyon periods with great players to an exodus and squads and managers who hadn't a prayer. This is how the Old Order works and what their pitfalls are. One or two bad managerial hires and they can fall like a house of cards because consequence for poor decisions then comes back to haunt them as a debt that needs paying in full. These old clubs don't just get to wipe the slate clean each season and go again with a brand new set of players if the bad buys don't work out. They are lumped with them and the general bar for the side will steadily diminish. Arsenal experienced exactly the same thing once Wenger stopped shitting gold. The stadium didn't help, but it wasn't their downfall, but it highlights another point and consequence: the either, or. By pouring money into the new stadium, they were going to be hamstrung for years. A conscious decision made to better their stadium meant less money could be pumped into the team, and anyone coming to manage them had to accept that. At City? Nope, we'll redevelop a portion of the city - yes, the literal city - whilst still hiring best in class across all facets on off and the pitch with no fallout whatsoever. Hmm... clearly the same playing field as what everyone else is uuming and ahhing from.

The worst thing of all is City didn't have to cheat as a state is going to be Borg-like in its assimilation by its very nature. It cannot be anything else, which is why it has no place in football, but that's besides the point as this is about cheating to achieve ends as hurriedly and as artificially as one can imagine.

As much as the Old Order could be despised by those who were not part of it, they were not infinite or unmovable. Every single one of them had sizeable lulls multiple times in their histories and provided opportunities for others to take their slice of the pie should they be so fortunate to go upwind at the time of a boon for the game. We'll never know what would have happened without City in the picture, but history tells us, quite clearly, that even the biggest of English clubs has never been too big to not fail, until now. With Ferguson's retirement, there was no guarantee status quo would have remained, but unlike in the past, where new players could gobble up space, things quickly became established in this new, most broken order where the winningest team's biggest concerns are in how to hide their wrongdoing. The footballing side of things, a total formality due to them having no consequences for anything that goes wrong.

Brilliant post.

What's the betting all 115 charges FC gets is a fine. Which will mean naff all given the money they have

Look what's happened to Everton and those were more minor breaches yet we are potentially going to see 115 Charges go unpunished/with a pathetic punishment that won't hinder them

Even the PL Facebook page seems heavily celebratory of 115 Charges FC and Haaland. I know it wants to promote to good players and league, but sure let's promote the club that should be punished for effectively cheating

Let's not forget they were supposed to be banned from the CL, yet got that over turned then when they would have been banned went and won it, thus giving them the treble that only United have previously done (albeit United's was legitimate)

They need to use them as an example of what happens if clubs take part in such serious degrees of cheating, and should be getting points deductions in the tens or even hundreds. But they won't because no one wants to stand up to them because they want to be able to keep fingers in pies

It's not just clubs like United/Liverpool etc that are being majorly affected by them going forward you have teams like Aston Villa competing for CL and the money that brings - and AV aren't one of the top tier clubs for finances so it would be massive for them

Anything they've won should be voided, because you can't tell how results would have gone if 115 charges FC weren't involved. They should be stripped of everything they've won since the ownership changed

If nothing happened, where's the deterrent to stop them buying other clubs and doing this, making the league even more broken

 

[GaryLifo]

Permananent expulsion from the league is the only punishment that fits if they are found guilty of even one charge of lying about where money has come from and/or inventing fake sponsors.

An example must be made. If the EFL will take them then they can reside there, but with no hope of ever being promoted back to the premier league even if they finish top of the Championship every single year

 

[NotChatGPT]

If the PL knowingly harbours cheating institutions it should considerably devalue the product. Long term it would be more advisable to at the very least severely punish City. No one would bother with a rigged sport because it takes the excitement away.

It's not cheating in the traditional sense. The vast majority of people aren't really bothered about financial cheating anyway, it's not likely to change. Abramovich only became a problem when Russia became a problem, it's not like his ties to certain individuals weren't shady when he bought Chelsea. They were also happy to approve Thaksin buying City. Saudis were only problematic because of their ties to illegal streaming. That pretty much sums up the state of things. Not to mention the whole debacle with multi club ownerships models

I reckon they will be hit with something they can call unprecedented, so a larger points deduction than Everton and a massive fine. The points deduction will be reduced, but the fine won't be, and they will finish outside the top 4.

 

[duffer]

If they are found guilty of all 115, I'd strip them of all titles won during the period and give them a 20 point deduction for the start of next season.

They aint kicking them out of the league, no chance.

My guess is that it will end up with some kind of miss-trial on a technicality and they won't get punished at all.

 

[Rob]

That would be a totally pathetic punishment,like the other poster says may as well just focus on a local grassroots side instead

Oh I agree.

That’s exactly what I expect to happen. And people will just go on afterwards like they did before.

Pretty much. I have been thinking if I would lose interest if/when they get "punished" like I described. I like to think so. But at the same time the PL has been such a big part of my life for 30 years that giving up on it sounds like an almost impossible task.

Doubt it will even be that much. Will be like 10 points and £20m and still pundits can act like they’ve been hard done by and how it’s harsh etc.

Fairly sure it'll be bigger than that. Big enough to make headlines like "historic punishment", but not quite big enough to hurt them long term.

 

[MegadrivePerson]

I don't think many will at all. The sport is too popular, and, outside of us United fans, do the majority really care about City's cheating? They're gaining new fans everyday, and, even on here, I see plenty of people preferring them to Arsenal.

I know a number of fans of other clubs and whenever I bring it up they say that I need to let it go and they don't believe that City are as bad as I say they are.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Fairly sure it'll be bigger than that. Big enough to make headlines like "historic punishment", but not quite big enough to hurt them long term.

If there's even a punishment at all.

They'd bite your hand off now if you offered them £100m to clear their name and validate the recent success, which is essentially what a fine would do.

 

[Alex99]

If there's even a punishment at all.

They'd bite your hand off now if you offered them £100m to clear their name and validate the recent success, which is essentially what a fine would do.

This is my worry with it all.

The most likely outcomes seem to be no punishment at all, or some "unprecedented" fine or single-season points deduction that doesn't really do anything. Fine them £250 million or make them start a season on -40 points and it really doesn't affect them at all.

 

[Solius]

If they are found guilty of all 115, I'd strip them of all titles won during the period and give them a 20 point deduction for the start of next season.

They aint kicking them out of the league, no chance.

My guess is that it will end up with some kind of miss-trial on a technicality and they won't get punished at all.

I'm definitely concerned they're going to bottle it or are being massively pressured by external parties. The knock-on ramifications for what they've done are absolutely colossal and it'd be the biggest scandal in football history really.

They absolutely deserve to be stripped of every single trophy won in this period, but I just cannot see that happening unfortunately. It's too messy for the PL, and Masters saying it will 'resolve itself' is fecking grim wording.

 

[Solius]

This is my worry with it all.

The most likely outcomes seem to be no punishment at all, or some "unprecedented" fine or single-season points deduction that doesn't really do anything. Fine them £250 million or make them start a season on -40 points and it really doesn't affect them at all.

Nope. It needs to affect their previous 'success' because if it fecks up one season for them with a points deduction they're absolutely going to think it was worth it.

 

[Alex99]

Nope. It needs to affect their previous 'success' because if it fecks up one season for them with a points deduction they're absolutely going to think it was worth it.

Absolutely, which is also why I'm worried the most likely outcomes will be precisely that sort of shit.

To punish them properly means stripping them of everything and ousting the owners.

 

[Castia]

If they are found guilty of all 115, I'd strip them of all titles won during the period and give them a 20 point deduction for the start of next season.

They aint kicking them out of the league, no chance.

My guess is that it will end up with some kind of miss-trial on a technicality and they won't get punished at all.

That was my initial feeling until they started deducting point off Everton and Forrest there’s no chance they get off on all 115 charges now they’d be a riot both from the clubs and the press

If these clubs are getting done on 1-2 charges it would be a mockery if City walk away from 115.

 

[Solius]

Absolutely, which is also why I'm worried the most likely outcomes will be precisely that sort of shit.

To punish them properly means stripping them of everything and ousting the owners.

It's like finding out the guy who won the majority of the 100m races the last 15 years was doped up to his eyeballs and telling him he has to start the next race 20 meters behind. That kind of 'punishment' would be absolute bollocks and an utter cop out.

 

[GDaly95]

I think the footballing world collectively knows that their success is entirely hollow. No one gave a feck that they won the treble. I think City fans know it as well and I mean that sincerely. They might not say it outwardly or even openly admit it to themselves or each other but even subconsciously they'll know its all built on sand. Their treble celebrations were so subdued.

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is my worry with it all.

The most likely outcomes seem to be no punishment at all, or some "unprecedented" fine or single-season points deduction that doesn't really do anything. Fine them £250 million or make them start a season on -40 points and it really doesn't affect them at all.

Exactly, I wonder if this is why it's taking so long. It seems like the evidence should be pretty clear cut guilty or not guilty, I get CFG are going to delay everything but some evidence must have been obtained by now and there must be an idea of guilt or not there. So maybe the delay isn't actually if they did it or not, it's now a free for all of very influential people with different interests trying to get the best 'deal' they can. The PL surely wants money + some action to signify i.e. stripped titles/demotion, the UAE don't want anything that negatively impacts their brand but don't really care about financial penalties, then the UK gov will be licking their lips as trying to help out the UAE for some favorable trade deals.

 

[Alex99]

It's like finding out the guy who won the majority of the 100m races the last 15 years was doped up to his eyeballs and telling him he has to start the next race 20 meters behind. That kind of 'punishment' would be absolute bollocks and an utter cop out.

Yeah, it'd make an absolute mockery of it, I just have no faith that it's going to be handled correctly. Just look at the Everton and Forest things. Everton admitted spending too much, the Premier League worked out a 10 point deduction, the independent body rejected their methods but then also worked out a 10 point deduction, Everton appealed, and now it's six points, for some reason. Forest admitted spending more over the cap than Everton, but were deducted just four points (and they're now appealing too), and Everton have since been handed a further two point deduction (which they're also appealing) for a different time-period. I half-expect City to be given a £100 million fine and a 30 point deduction, and that to be reduced to £10 million and 3 points on appeal.

They need to be stripped of the titles they've won, the owners ousted, and I think handed some sort of prolonged transfer ban of three to five years to come remotely close to punishing them. There's strong arguments for kicking them out of the league (and possibly even the whole pyramid), but I just can't see that happening.

Exactly, I wonder if this is why it's taking so long. It seems like the evidence should be pretty clear cut guilty or not guilty, I get CFG are going to delay everything but some evidence must have been obtained by now and there must be an idea of guilt or not there. So maybe the delay isn't actually if they did it or not, it's now a free for all of very influential people with different interests trying to get the best 'deal' they can. The PL surely wants money + some action to signify i.e. stripped titles/demotion, the UAE don't want anything that negatively impacts their brand but don't really care about financial penalties, then the UK gov will be licking their lips as trying to help out the UAE for some favorable trade deals.

City cooperated handing over relevant documents/data until about the 2018/19 season, so there's a decade's worth there they can go after them with. That alone would probably be enough to get them. There's something going on behind the scenes that I can only see as worrying. The fact we don't actually know any specific dates for a hearing is bad enough.

 

[Solius]

I half-expect City to be given a £100 million fine and a 30 point deduction, and that to be reduced to £10 million and 3 points on appeal.

See something like this would also be enraging for PL clubs. If they apply it to this season then why should only Arsenal benefit? If it's applied to next season then again only the currently decent/good teams would benefit. A team like us would get nothing for finishing 2nd two times previously. The knock-on effects are just huge. As @Fortitude said they've basically taken away a CL spot from a more deserving team for the last decade and more.

 

[Alex99]

See something like this would also be enraging for PL clubs. If they apply it to this season then why should only Arsenal benefit? If it's applied to next season then again only the currently decent/good teams would benefit. A team like us would get nothing for finishing 2nd two times previously. The knock-on effects are just huge. As @Fortitude said they've basically taken away a CL spot from a more deserving team for the last decade and more.

It's just a lack of faith in the authorities to actually deal with it.

Maybe I'm being pessimistic.

Considering they hadn't finished above 8th in the Premier League before the takeover, it's not just league titles they've cost teams, and not even just CL (or Europa) qualification, it's been the difference between entering in group stages or having to go through qualifiers. Then there's the teams they've beaten in cup competitions even when they've not gone on to win it, changing the whole dynamic of the tournament.

They should be done as a club. We should be seeing FC City of Manchester forming and starting in the Manchester League Division Two, ground sharing with Stockport Town.

 

[SouthMancRed]

£100 million fine? Sorry, can't pay that right now. You'll need to wait until tomorrow.

 

[NLunited]

If they were serious about punishing Cheaty, wouldn’t they have done so already? They seem to move quickly against Everton and Forrest.

The thing that might work is a joint protest or strike by all the clubs, of a significant chunk of them.

 

[NotChatGPT]

If they were serious about punishing Cheaty, wouldn’t they have done so already? They seem to move quickly against Everton and Forrest.

A lot less complicated cases, not to mention the fact that Everton and Forest weren't constantly trying to block the PL at every corner

 

[NLunited]

A lot less complicated cases, not to mention the fact that Everton and Forest weren't constantly trying to block the PL at every corner

Even so, it is a failure of epic proportions. Basically they can‘t enforce fair play rules, Cheaty does whatever it wants.

Why aren‘t journalists asking tough questions? Another failure. They are probably chicken.

 

[duffer]

Is there anyway they could be found not guilty that would satisfy fans of other teams?

 

[Sarni]

If they were serious about punishing Cheaty, wouldn’t they have done so already? They seem to move quickly against Everton and Forrest.

The thing that might work is a joint protest or strike by all the clubs, of a significant chunk of them.

Everton and Forest don't have the resources to fight it this fiercely, City do.

 

[padzilla]

Even so, it is a failure of epic proportions. Basically they can‘t enforce fair play rules, Cheaty does whatever it wants.

Why aren‘t journalists asking tough questions? Another failure. They are probably chicken.

I suspect because the reporters covering it are sports writers and this is more of a hard news angle. Look at Sunak's recent interview on Sky News about when he was going to call an election, he wanted to avoid it but the interviewer asked repeatedly and Sunak got ratty as a result.

Reporters who ask questions to football clubs or sporting organisations get banned for not toeing the line, United have done it very recently too.

They lose that access to the superstars which as a result leaves their livelihoods at risk.

There's no tenacity from sports reporters to repeatedly ask a question until they get an answer, they'll ask it once and move on as long as they have some kind of reply - regardless of how bland.

 

[Zen86]

Even so, it is a failure of epic proportions. Basically they can‘t enforce fair play rules, Cheaty does whatever it wants.

Why aren‘t journalists asking tough questions? Another failure. They are probably chicken.

City Group exert the kind of influence and political resources that only state-backed clubs can.

 

[Solius]

Is there anyway they could be found not guilty that would satisfy fans of other teams?

I doubt it. You don't get 115 charges against you when you're a wholly innocent club.

If someone I knew went to court for 115 separate charges of domestic abuse but was found not guilty on all 115 I still don't think I'd hang around with them anymore.

 

[Solius]

Even so, it is a failure of epic proportions. Basically they can‘t enforce fair play rules, Cheaty does whatever it wants.

Why aren‘t journalists asking tough questions? Another failure. They are probably chicken.

Someone tried to get Bill Rice (manchester journo) to mention the charges the other day and he just plain refuses to. He's never once spoken about them but fawns over their performances.

I've no doubt some are being paid to minimise it.

 

[Hughes35]

They won't get kicked out of the league but they could get say a 100 point deduction. In reality that would probably mean back to back relegation and they'd rebuild from League 1. I think seems pretty fair all around to be honest.

Just wish they'd get a move on and finalise it. Whatever it may be.

 

[GDaly95]

They won't get kicked out of the league but they could get say a 100 point deduction. In reality that would probably mean back to back relegation and they'd rebuild from League 1. I think seems pretty fair all around to be honest.

Just wish they'd get a move on and finalise it. Whatever it may be.

Why would a 100 point deduction land them in League 1? What am I missing?